"project Cheap Date"

[toneblind]

In with both feet . . . this is my first foray into guitar refurbishment. I’m calling it “Project Cheap Date”. Yesterday, I picked up this Epi LP Special for $75. Maybe I paid too much, but a co-worker who knows guitars said it was in decent shape & played well. The only blemish worth mention is a chip at the bottom.

My goal is to make it look like a late 50’s gold top. The previously mentioned co-worker has an Epi LP Standard I can use to measure the various thicknesses and curvatures.

The reason I’m calling it ‘Project Cheap Date” is because the only things I’ll have to spend for will be the new pickup trim, knobs and binding. I already have the electronic bits, mahogany and what I believe is a very close match on the gold metallic paint. I even have some automotive clear left over from a recent car project.

I plan to strip and plane the body, removing enough material from both the front and back just to take off the rounded edges. Then, after machining to give it 2 volume & 2 control knobs, and relocating the selector switch (I already have the pots and the schematic to change the controls), I plan to laminate mahogany to both surfaces in order to build up enough thickness to shape the arched top as well as a slightly rounded back. I’m planning to reuse the pickups, but I’d like to try and make some polished aluminum covers. I’m not sure what affect that might have on the sound.

I’m even planning to rout for and install edge binding (Cream plastic from Stew-Mac). Because the body is plywood, and the finish on the neck and headstock are still good (black), the sides and back of the body will also be black.

Way at the bottom of the wish list is to make, yes I said make, my own Bigsby for it. In a week or so, I’ll be receiving a B7 that I’ll be installing on my Oscar Schmidt OE-30. As an engineer at an aluminum fabrication company, it will be easy to make a set of CAD drawings and gather the materials. Actually making it, so it works will be an entirely different epic.

On to the questions:

1. I think I understand that the painting has to be done AFTER the binding is glued in place. Other than doing a really good job taping off the binding, are there any tricks to achieving a clean edge where the paint meets the binding?

2. Can plastic binding be sanded? I saw on the Stewart Macdonald web site that they recommend using a scraper to bring the wood down to the binding.

3. Is there a better binding material than plastic?

4. I’ve never disassembled a guitar. Are there any precautions I should take when removing the neck and truss rod?

5. If I end up repainting the neck and head, is there a resource for the Epiphone logo decals?

I should offer a warning . . . It takes me forever to finish a project. It could easily be a month between updates on this project. For example, I wanted a large multi-drawer mechanics tool chest, but was too cheap to buy one, so I set out to make my own out of aluminum. It took over two years to find the time to get it done.

Thanks in advance for any answers to the above questions.

Edited January 18, 2009 by toneblind

[Tristan]

Cool project!

You can use wood for binding, I'm pretty sure Stew Mac sells it. Once the binding is on, you paint the guitar. Inbetween each coat you scrape the paint very carefully off the binding. You may be able to find some Epihpone headstock stickers on ebay.

Why are you removing the truss rod?

[Southbound]

WOW! I'm doing almost exactly the same thing!

I have an old Hondo LP copy that is a flat top and I've run it through a thicknesser and I'll putting a drop on it.

My top will be a book matched pair and I'll be doing a dark sunburst finish. I'll also be putting a new set of pickups in it.

As for your questions, as a newbie myself I wont answer any just cos I don't feel qualified yet

I will say this though, expect to get some resistance to this project from a few blokes cos it's not exactly the easiest or the most sensible way to to do it.

AND don't expect it to be as straight forward as a dropping a top on, painiting it and playing it.

You well need to consider important things like neck angle since the thickness of the guitar will effect the height at which your bridge is gonna sit in relation to the depth of the neck pocket. If this is something you haven't considered or you're not across all the details of neck angle there is some great info pinned on this forum to help you work it out.

I'd also say if you're just going for a new look that's cool, but if you're hoping its gonna sound better, it probably wont unless you wack some pickups in it that are specific to the era you're going for.

The last thing I'd say is that I thought the carve top on all the LP's of that era were made of maple (mahogany body/maple top)(I MIGHT BE WRONG!). You mentioned you had the Mahogany to laminate to your body. Without a maple top your LP probably wont sound much like a '50's LP. Just something to consider. (I should note that my one is gonna have Australian Blackwood top NOT a maple top...but then I'm not trying to emulate the '50 sound, I'm going for something a little different).

Good luck with it...I'll be watching with interest. I'll be posting a thread for my own rebuild pretty soon maybe we can learn a thing or two from each other.

[toneblind]

Cool project!

You can use wood for binding, I'm pretty sure Stew Mac sells it. Once the binding is on, you paint the guitar. Inbetween each coat you scrape the paint very carefully off the binding. You may be able to find some Epihpone headstock stickers on ebay.

Why are you removing the truss rod?

I assumed the truss rod anchored into the body, but if it anchors in the neck, then I'll leave it alone. Like I mentioned an in earlier post, until this past December, I'd never even held a guitar, much less knew anything about them.

Southbound, I wouldn't know the sound of a 50's LP from a 50's refridgerator, I just appreciate the look. I plan to keep it, so if down the road it's determined that it sounds like crap, I'll address it then. I've heard of, but not seen pictures of, the voids milled into the bodies of Les Pauls that help to bring out the correct tone. If and when I find that info, I'll add that to the to do list.

I'm using mahogany because I have about 100 board feet of irradiated mahogany flooring (hard as rock) in my workshop.

There is about a 7/16" height difference between the flat body and the fretboard. From what I've seen on the LP Standard, I could add about 3/8" of material to the top and still be able to position the bridge to have the strings the current height off the fretboard.

Like I mentioned, this is my first go at guitar work. If it turns our awful, I'll part it out on Ebay and go on to something else.

[dpm99]

On to the questions:

1. I think I understand that the painting has to be done AFTER the binding is glued in place. Other than doing a really good job taping off the binding, are there any tricks to achieving a clean edge where the paint meets the binding?

2. Can plastic binding be sanded? I saw on the Stewart Macdonald web site that they recommend using a scraper to bring the wood down to the binding.

3. Is there a better binding material than plastic?

4. I’ve never disassembled a guitar. Are there any precautions I should take when removing the neck and truss rod?

5. If I end up repainting the neck and head, is there a resource for the Epiphone logo decals?

After working on my first project for about eight months, I believe I'm still a newbie myself, but let me see if I can answer some of those questions for you.

1. I'll let someone with more experience tackle this one.

2. Yes. I've done it. Be aware though that you'll have to get to a really high grit before it will look right. At that point, you're more or less polishing.

3. I say no, but as noted, you can use wood too. However, plastic is much easier, imho.

4. Yes, the trussrod is contained entirely within the neck. Are you sure that's an Epi LP Standard? It looks like the LP Studio. The main reason I ask is that the Studio should have a bolt-on neck (bolted in) vs. a set neck (glued in). If it's a bolt-on, take it right off. Be careful with it, but there are no unusual precautions you need to take. In fact, if you want to get into guitar building, I say take the whole thing apart and put it back together again. You'll understand the guitar better afterward.

5. There are a number of ways to go about that one. If you can't find one, you may be able to make your own. Go to the main page (projectguitar.com) and check the tutorials. There's one in there somewhere.

As a final note, I think almost everyone here will agree that building slow is a good thing when you're learning.

Good luck!

-Dave

[Narcissism]

Way at the bottom of the wish list is to make, yes I said make, my own Bigsby for it. In a week or so, I’ll be receiving a B7 that I’ll be installing on my Oscar Schmidt OE-30. As an engineer at an aluminum fabrication company, it will be easy to make a set of CAD drawings and gather the materials. Actually making it, so it works will be an entirely different epic.

That's a pretty cool Idea, and I wish i could do the same with access to the proper machines. My only question concerns the aluminum. From what I learned in casting, cutting, and stretching aluminum, i've come to the conclusion that aluminum is a pretty flexable, and not very strong metal to use. Do you think it'll resist wear from the strings creating a lot of tension on it? I may have been using pretty low grade aluminum, but from my experience, aluminum isn't hard enough to deal with tensions like that.

[toneblind]

Way at the bottom of the wish list is to make, yes I said make, my own Bigsby for it. In a week or so, I’ll be receiving a B7 that I’ll be installing on my Oscar Schmidt OE-30. As an engineer at an aluminum fabrication company, it will be easy to make a set of CAD drawings and gather the materials. Actually making it, so it works will be an entirely different epic.

That's a pretty cool Idea, and I wish i could do the same with access to the proper machines. My only question concerns the aluminum. From what I learned in casting, cutting, and stretching aluminum, i've come to the conclusion that aluminum is a pretty flexable, and not very strong metal to use. Do you think it'll resist wear from the strings creating a lot of tension on it? I may have been using pretty low grade aluminum, but from my experience, aluminum isn't hard enough to deal with tensions like that.

I'll be using 6061-T6. It's the stongest alloy I have readily available. It may flex a bit, but shouldn't be much more than cast aluminum. If I don't have material thick enough and end up having to weld on additional material, that will make it a lot stiffer. I can also leave extra material in key places to improve the resistance to flexing.

For the install on my OE-30, I don't want to drill and screw into the front of the body, so I'm stealing an idea from ZZGUITARWORKS.COM and will make a plate that the front Bigsby mounts will bolt to and then fasten the other end to the stock stop bar bosses. Depending on the string angle, I'll make the mount plate from either .045" Stainless or .100" aluminum. Either way, I should be able to put a finish on it that will match the Bigsby.

Other than the CAD system, the only equipment I'll be using will be a drill press, angle grinder and borrowed time on a bridgeport mill at work. I expect there will be hours and hours of hand filing and polishing.

The only parts that contact the strings (the front roller and the stop bar w/ pins) will be stainless steel round bar and will rotate on pressed in bronze bushings.

Edited January 11, 2009 by toneblind

[toneblind]

As a final note, I think almost everyone here will agree that building slow is a good thing when you're learning.

Thanks for the vote of confidence. My favorite expression and my signature on other web forums I frequent is "There are no simple projects"

Like I mentioned earlier, it takes me forever to finish any project. I will fixate for weeks on end over the smallest detail, or spend 40 hours designing, and re-designing a part before I actually start getting dirty. My little brother says I suffer from "Analysis Paralysis".

This is the two year epic mechanics toolchest I built:

(quick note, my workshop is usually never as cluttered as is in that picture)

It has 17 drawers, over 15 cubic feet of storage. There's a hidden button in the underside of the top frame, to the left of the center upright, that when pressed, releases a foot lever out from the bottom. Step on the foot lever and the lid elevates, staying level, on 4 parallel arms pushed by twin gas shocks. Also, all the drawers and the lid can be locked with a single key.

I've been offered $5k for it and turned it down. Inside the top storage area is a stainless plate I had engraved with a message for my son who will one day inherit it (and hopefully some day pass it on to his son). The plate is installed backwards to keep the message hidden until the time is right. I know it's not heirloom quality, but it's a statement that with enough planning and patience, he can do anything. As far as heirloom quality, some day I'll post photos of the solid oak mission style sleigh bed I built for my daughter.

Edited January 11, 2009 by toneblind

[chops1983]

Hey toneblind!

Love the mechanics tool chest you built, great job!It just goes to show with enough time and patience you can put your mind to anything.

With your binding try not to sand it as it will leave grooves for the timber dust to fill and discolour it. Order slightly larger binding than you need and scrape that flush to the timber. When bending around tight curves use a hairdryer to heat it up and it will bend easier. After painting use a small offcut of binding, taped to a square razor blade as a guide. Set it back from the edge of your razor the width that you want your binding to be. This should keep your binding on the front even. Scrape the face of your binding but tape the sides.

Just a few things i have picked up with binding on my jobs. Try and practice on scrap aswell where you can.

Goodluck!

[Tristan]

Damn! That's one cool tool chest!! I love the fact you added something special for your son down the road.

This thread reminds me that I started making a guitar stand last year and forgot all about it! I used to be really into metal working and welding, but I just haven't had the energy lately to do much of it.

[dpm99]

With your binding try not to sand it as it will leave grooves for the timber dust to fill and discolour it.

I agree that it's better not to sand the binding. But you can avoid this problem by sanding to a very high grit.

[foil1more]

Whoa. I like the tool chest. I'll be interested to see how making your own bigsby works out.

[hexa-db]

Hah! I started an almost identical project! My guitar looked pretty much identical to yours.

In my case it all started because the guitar needed a refret (a couple fret ends had lifted and would not reseat). From there it escalated...

Mine was looking like this:

I masked off the top and 1 layer of ply on the edge, sprayed it black. Then I masked off the bottom (and the 1 layer of ply again) and sprayed the gold. I wasn't happy with it though because the exposed ply fake binding was a bit blotchy (some kind of staining) and I couldn't get a clean enough line. I've now stripped it again and I'm going to redo it.

I've stripped the neck, dyed with mahogany dye and tru-oiled it too - it feels great. I replaced the dot inlays with abalone as well. I still haven't got it fretted though!

I started this about 5 months ago - I'm not sure I'll ever finish it now!!

[psw]

Hmmm....

Have you considered...if it is a bolt on neck as I suspect and will all have to come apart anyway...instead of adding a top to the plywood body...using the original body as a template to make a solid mahogany version (since you have the materials) inclusive of the thickness desired for a carved top. It would seem like a much more satisfactory and possibly easier end result. As you are planning a painted finish, if you don't have the material in the correct thickness you could laminate it up...you could even have the option of a gold top and binding with a mahogany back.

just a thought...

[toneblind]

Hmmm....

Have you considered...if it is a bolt on neck as I suspect and will all have to come apart anyway...instead of adding a top to the plywood body...using the original body as a template to make a solid mahogany version (since you have the materials) inclusive of the thickness desired for a carved top. It would seem like a much more satisfactory and possibly easier end result. As you are planning a painted finish, if you don't have the material in the correct thickness you could laminate it up...you could even have the option of a gold top and binding with a mahogany back.

just a thought...

Thanks for all the ideas and answers, but "Project Cheap Date" has been axed (pun intended) for a better "Cheap Date" project. I found a structurely intact Epi Les Paul Standard in decent shape for very short $$.

It's a refinishing project someone else started and lost interest. All the electronics and hardware has been removed but, except for the pickups, all the necessary bits are there. It even comes with a strap and Epiphone case.

Depending on how well I can match the grain patching the extra holes, I may attempt a transparent green finish. If the repairs are really noticible, it will be a gold top.

All in all, this project will cost me about the same, but be done much sooner, and the end result should be much better.

I should receive the new project in a week or so. Stay tuned.

[ae3]

You could keep the holes and have awesome electronic configurations

[toneblind]

Some of you out there might find this interesting...

I'm designing a mounting plate to install a Bigsby on my guitar. I'm trying to do a "no drilling" installation (similar to what zzguitarworks.com does). I plan to use .125" aluminum.

While modeling the mount in CAD, I got concerened about the two ears where the plate attached to the stop bar holes breaking due to fatigue. I ran a stress analysis of the part and it showed it would fatigue at the bottom end first.

[dpm99]

Toneblind, that's cool. It makes me wonder what else might be possible in the way of interchangeable tailpieces.