Titebond Is Rubbish

[Drak]

I was advised on this site to use Titebond to fix a laminate front to a guitar.

Well, Drak....I have never read such a load of sanctimonious piffle in all of my 60 years on this planet!

Oh, you ain't seen nuttin' yet, I'm gettin' ready to completely unload on your pufferistic unteachable egotistical ass!

Some of you people on this site are so far up your own your own fundaments, it's a wonder you don't drown in your own efluent!

Oh Shorty, I'm drownin' in my own vomit stains, believe me, every day I have to read amateuristic drama drivel like yours.

Please don't use such a high handed tone with me!

I am so sorry that I don't use the correct terminology for your highness.

What the f*ck is wrong with the use of 'veneer' when describing veneer?

Because, you retarded piece of verbal effleunce, veneer and laminate are two completely different animals, but OH, you are a TEACHER!, you already knew that, didn't you?

You know, I'm not a teacher such as your Sanctimonious Exalted Self-Effacing Self, but I have actually read somewhere that teachers actually LEARN more from their students than they bring to the table, but what i smell here is EGO, YOUR ego, and far too much of it. It stinks.

People like yourself want to look extremely COOL whether they know what they're talking about or not, even when they're getting DEALT WIT, such as the case here.

You came out of the box saying laminate, but ended up saying veneer.

They're completely different animals, but HEY COOL KIDS, you already knew that, now, didn't you, Mr. Teacher?

Ha Ha Ha!!!

When you want to become teachable, and stop smelling your own external nefarious nocturnal puffery, you might be more open to the art of LEARNING.

But you're going to have to get out of your own way first.

Can you do that, can you take the Dowel Rod Log out of your Own Eye to Humble yourself to the fact that you don't really know what the hell you're talking about and actually need some help here and stop posting pics of your guitars so you can Buff Up your own Ego just for a minute?

[low end fuzz]

and that my friend is an American reply;

is it a bad thing i enjoyed it a little?

[Drak]

It wouldn't be fair to drag his smelly old unteachable baggy ass through the sandpits without a fair explanation, so I will give him one.

Personally speaking, my dividing line between a laminate and a veneer rests at about 1/8".

Others may vary in their opinion, and that's fine with me.

Anything over that is a laminate to me, anything under that COULD probably be considered a veneer, depending on the type of wood you're dealing with.

Laminates are far easier to deal with, and any glue used typically won't bleed through the pores to the top.

Veneers OTOH, well, Veneering is an ART FORM.

it takes TIME, EXPERIENCE, an OPEN MIND, CALMNESS, CONFIDENCE, and SELF-TEACHABILITY to learn how to do veneering really well.

You can be as snobbish as you want, a piece of veneer will school you quite quick, and blaming the glue is a calculatedly piss-poor lame-ass excuse.

If your an egotistical megalomaniac with a penchant for sniffing your own arse odor, you simply don't have what it takes to humble yourself to the art form.

I would then recommend you Give up and Quit Yo, you'd be better off in the end.

It's not me you have to take offense to, it's your own inability to accept the fact that you will probably fail repeated times in order to get your 'schooling' on all the intricacies and varieties of veneering.

Personally, I find the journey quite intoxicating, but I never tie myself to a successful outcome, I just let the chips fall where they may and roll with it.

I know quite a bit now, but I had to go through 30-40 veneer projects to Really 'get to know' the ins and outs of veneering with different woods.

There's a lot to learn, but how can you expect to learn anything when your own cup runneth over with yo-seff?

The simple fact that you even used the term laminate tells me everything I need to know about what you know about veneering, ...which ain't much.

...Care to learn something now?

[Mender]

Blimey. _{Remind me never to get on the wrong side of Drak lol.}

[soapbarstrat]

I guess this thread shows a good reason why there's flourescent titebond, although it seems they stopped making flourescent titebond 1, and now it's flourescent titebond 2.

[ShadesOfGrey]

You sure don't sound like a 60 year old man.

Would it help if he told you to get off his lawn?

[Wademeister]

Here's an idea from the aircraft cabinet=making world...

You may be able to prefinish the veneer before you apply it to the guitar. Don't completely finish it, but at least get far enough to have the grain sealed against glue seeping through from the back. The guys I work with are doing prefinish for different reasons but it seems like a practical solution in this case.

[psw]

+1 excellent suggestion...

prefinishing is another good way of ensuring no glue on the surface...might be tricky not to warp it into a "roll"...maybe double sided tape onto something while the surface cost sets...

see...got to keep thinking laterally...

[ShadesOfGrey]

I'll remember that 'pre-glue layer' thing btw. It seems like a very cool tip of the trade

[brian d]

...I never tie myself to a successful outcome...

When I read that line, it was an epiphany for me. If I can let go of the "what if I stuff up" attitude holding me back, I'm sure I'll make much more progress.

Thanks for that, Drak.

[Drak]

You may be able to prefinish the veneer before you apply it to the guitar.

Don't completely finish it, but at least get far enough to have the grain sealed against glue seeping through from the back.

+1 excellent suggestion...

prefinishing is another good way of ensuring no glue on the surface...might be tricky not to warp it into a "roll"...maybe double sided tape onto something while the surface cost sets...

I'll remember that 'pre-glue layer' thing btw.

It seems like a very cool tip of the trade

What I see is a bunch of total guessing going on and no real useful information,

it's like watching someone trying to put a multiplier on Zero.

Here you go...

Basically, he asked for a laminate glue, which Titebond is perfect for.

Titebond is also my preferred glue for veneering,

but there's a LOT more to know about it's proper application when using it on a veneer.

He didn't specify veneer, which makes all the difference in the world.

He got the right information for the question he asked, he just asked the wrong question.

Typically, prefinishing doesn't work for several reasons:

If you CAN pretreat it, it probably didn't need pre-treating in the first place.

Veneer WILL immediately curl and twist upon ANY type of liquid-oriented product applied to it,

and taping it down will just make things worse.

That idea is a no-fly zone.

Even a few light spritzes of water drops will make it start to move.

There's more that can go wrong with pre-treating, but I don't feel like listing all of them, just say it's safe to say it's not the best idea usually.

There is the iron-on method, which I used for awhile then let go of, where you do pretreat and pre-shrink the veneer and the substrate, let the glue dry, then iron it on.

There are lots of things that can go wrong with that way as well.

There are veneers out there that come with a backing already applied.

Most (if not almost all) of those types of veneers would never end up an a guitar,

as they're not very visually stimulating to look at in the first place.

Industrial veneers are usually pretty bland and Plain Jane.

Most veneers used in industrial furniture applications don't have the kind of pores that allow glue seepage anyway.

The kind of veneer that is typically used for guitars is exactly the worst kind of veneer for an amateur to try...it's usually 'High-Test'...full of figure, changing pores, inclusions, open to easy seepage, prone to shrinking, curling, twisting, etc., no backing, etc...

It's a very fine dance you have to learn to play between applying the glue:

Light enough and dry enough that it won't seep through

BUT enough that you don't get 'pop-ups' where the (light application) glue wasn't enough to secure the veneer down.

Proper clamping techniques so that when you tap the wood before and after,

that there is no aural difference in the tap tone.

That your veneer was applied correctly enough that it is 'aurally invisible'.

This point RARELY ever gets discussed, but is an important part of a good job, and one reason I hold no faith in the 'sand bag' application technique.

Most people who use crap techniques, even if they get it glued down with no seepage or pop-ups, there will be a difference in tap tone, telling you that you didn't get it glued down hard enough to make a completely full contact.

This point goes to really good veneer clamping technique, another part that needs to be practiced and perfected.

When you get a completely full and proper contact with the right amount of glue to get great adhesion, but not so much that you get seepage, you can tap on it after the veneer is applied and there will be NO difference in the tap sound from before and after.

THAT is a properly applied veneer face, and is not that easy to do without some serious practice runs and an open, learning mindset to go along with it.

Sometimes, depending on the type of veneer and it's thickness, there simply is no getting around some seepage, it's just a fact of life you have to get used to, learn how to minimize it, and plan for it so it doesn't throw you off your horse when it happens.

Basically, there are NO hard and fast rules about veneering, that's where the EXPERIENCE comes in.

Your common sense, based on your past experiences, will tell you how to proceed forward depending on what kind of veneer, what kind of pores it has, and how thick it is you're dealing with, because the 'proper way' will vary depending on those parameters.

[Guest Titebond I]

Nobody asks my opinion.

[wizardfire]

You sure don't sound like a 60 year old man.

So...what is a 60 yr old supposed to sound like?

You are only as old as you feel, and right now I feel about 90 yrs old, or is it 9 yrs old? !

Advert - TITEBOND...The world's best adhesive! Sticks better than sh*t to a blanket!

Now I'm really showing my age!...Some of you youngsters won't know what a blanket is!

Let's run that again:

Advert - TITEBOND...The world's best adhesive! Sticks better than sh*t to a duvet!

WizardFire

[soapbarstrat]

I thought 60 is the new 40 ?

(And 20 is the new fetus)

[westhemann]

So...what is a 60 yr old supposed to sound like?

Usually mature and not so Troll-ish?Not so prone to jumping off half cocked towards other adults?Maybe like someone with an understanding that they do not know everything and maybe with the knowledge that others who have been there before could help you understand what you did wrong?

If that sounds like I am talking down to you,then so be it.

[Mender]

I thought 60 is the new 40 ?

I'm almost 63 and I feel exactly the same as I did when I was 40...

...completely knackered

Edited June 7, 2010 by Mender

[Woodenspoke]

And I thought I was feeling old on this forum..things are looking up.

If you guys are that old you should have remembered hide glue...

I remember titebond when there was only one bottle..original.. now thats old. I remember when you learned by reading and not the internet..Oh wait there was no internet..OK I'm still old...LOL

[Mender]

You're not old, Spoke. You're a youngster compared to me