First ever build, 60's Strat

[steve1556]

Haven't had a chance to do anything on the guitar the last few days. Was hoping to get a fair bit done yesterday but I ended up helping to put new roof felt on the shed instead and had to work today. I have had a chance to do some reading, many thanks to Prostheta for that. Still got a fair bit of learning to do on the subject though.

On the plus side, I've bought a load of F clamps for the neck/fret board, the shop had 2 in stock and ordered another 8 in for me, they were fairly cheap at £4.40 each, but they are big enough for multi laminate necks plus gluing the fret board onto the neck with radius boards on top to make sure there is full contact between the clamp and fret board. Every time I go into a shop, I keep looking at this router that they do, and as I'm having issues with my dads one in that I think it's jammed, so I decided to treat myself to it. I also think I've got a good idea to route the truss rod channel, and my plan is to make sure the edge of the wood is straight, then mark out the channel for the truss rod, use the edge running extension on the router base to route the channel, then trace the neck template and cut it out. I believe that will work as long as the edge of the neck wood is straight.

[Prostheta]

That's a way of doing it. Just ensure that the base sits flat (top heavy routers can be awkward) and that you take it in several shallow controlled passes in the right direction. One way, it'll try and pull itself into the cut (a good thing for edge guides) and the other it'll try and climb out. Brain's frazzled this evening so I can't remember which one is correct. I did some handwaving and still came up blank. Thanks brain.

[steve1556]

I tried out this new router today. Had an issue changing the collet size, turns out they have updated the fittings but not the instruction manual. I came to that conclusion after about an hour of messing around with it, and the shops power tool guy and his manager came to the same conclusion after spending half an hour on it when I took it back to the shop just to make sure. Regarding the jumping and egde guides, I was pushing the router in the direction of the arrow, and tried about 5cm the other way and in both directions is sat firmly and didn't try jumping out. You know you've gotta concentrate hard when you start waving the hands around to picture it! Thanks for the heads up on it though, it made me extra careful. On the plus side, the router is much nicer then my dads one to use and don't seem top heavy, spins up slowly, etc.

The new router, clamps and pencil. I always see workmen with this style of pencil, so now I feel like a real craftsman now that I've got one! I also got a 6mm router bit, but after routing the channel for the truss rod, I realised that I needed a slightly wider cavity, but small then when a 8mm bit would give me. I ended up moving the rails on the router guide slightly which solved the problem. In hindsight, I should have also got a 8mm bit for the adjustment part, but this time I just used a chisel and mallet. I also made the mistake of drawing out the neck, marking out the truss rod, then finding out it wasn't 100% straight, although it is very close. I may rub out the neck outline and redo it, but it's near perfect and I believe it wouldn't make much difference. It started raining so had to move everything into the garage very quickly and finish it off in there. Had to use the router for a tiny bit in the garage with no was for dust extraction so I'm going to clean that up later.

I've put the start of the allen key socket under the nut, it's that the correct place or should I move it up slightly?

6mm router bit

New clamps arrived, they are so easy to use. Kinda makes me wish I got this style instead of the sash clamps for the body.

New router and bits.

My new workmens pencil.

Marking out the neck, truss rod placement, routing and using the chisels.

This was taking around 4pm, getting darker already, overcast and raining almost the whole day! This was just before it chucked it down again.

[Prostheta]

3 hours ago, steve1556 said:

I tried out this new router today. Had an issue changing the collet size, turns out they have updated the fittings but not the instruction manual. I came to that conclusion after about an hour of messing around with it, and the shops power tool guy and his manager came to the same conclusion after spending half an hour on it when I took it back to the shop just to make sure. Regarding the jumping and egde guides, I was pushing the router in the direction of the arrow, and tried about 5cm the other way and in both directions is sat firmly and didn't try jumping out. You know you've gotta concentrate hard when you start waving the hands around to picture it! Thanks for the heads up on it though, it made me extra careful. On the plus side, the router is much nicer then my dads one to use and don't seem top heavy, spins up slowly, etc.

The new router, clamps and pencil. I always see workmen with this style of pencil, so now I feel like a real craftsman now that I've got one! I also got a 6mm router bit, but after routing the channel for the truss rod, I realised that I needed a slightly wider cavity, but small then when a 8mm bit would give me. I ended up moving the rails on the router guide slightly which solved the problem. In hindsight, I should have also got a 8mm bit for the adjustment part, but this time I just used a chisel and mallet. I also made the mistake of drawing out the neck, marking out the truss rod, then finding out it wasn't 100% straight, although it is very close. I may rub out the neck outline and redo it, but it's near perfect and I believe it wouldn't make much difference. It started raining so had to move everything into the garage very quickly and finish it off in there. Had to use the router for a tiny bit in the garage with no was for dust extraction so I'm going to clean that up later.

 

Handwaving and turning your finger in a circle is the way forward. I mean, visualising things and forming your mental references is so much easier when you look like a fool waving your hands in the air. I did (do) it all the time on my first degree (and on my second too), but stopped caring when I noticed people made far more mistakes and had more accidents than me. Hand wave all you want. Better than guessing or seeing what happens! Remember that router bits can only cut one way, so that helps you immediately tell which way its going to turn and where it's going to cut.

If that pencil doesn't fit behind your ear, or doesn't end up with teethmarks in it, you bought the wrong brand. I recommend adding in a 0,5mm mechanical pencil. I've been using these for a few years now, and same as the carpenter's roughing pencils you have there (they have many many uses I don't want to list here) they become part of your to-hand arsenal.

Yeah, just rub out that outline and start afresh. Your truss rod rout is your new reference mark. Just re-establish your centreline. No sweat. The rod access just needs to let the Allen key in, so as long as it isn't totally buried under the fingerboard or protruding, fine. I might be having a brain fart, however the flat rod should be uppermost on those rods. It's dual acting so it'll still work either way, however righty-tighty is going to become lefty-tighty. It gets a bit awkward for straight rods like that though on non-tiltback headstocks, because you need clearance to get at the rod....Fender style headstocks rarely offer that. You might benefit from one of those longer T-bar Allen wrenches with the rounded head.

Just minor points really. The design will work, however I'm sure that when you come across the points in the finished item, they'll influence how you make your builds after this one. If anything, a valuable hands-on way to develop your finessing. I think Fenders really benefit from adjustment at the heel end, but accessible with a spoke wheel or other access point. I really hate headstock adjustments on non-tiltback headstocks. It's like wading through strings or perhaps playing "Operation"!

[Prostheta]

I hope that helped. It was meant to!

[steve1556]

23 hours ago, Prostheta said:

I hope that helped. It was meant to!

Yep, it most definitely helped! I've found all your posts helpful on this big learning curve, and I really do appreciate it.

That's a good point on the hand waving, and if I'm just doing it in the garage no one will ever know! Haha. How many degrees do you have now? And don't worry, I'm sure that pencil will have teeth marks in it in the not too distant future! With regards to the mechanical pencil, in the pictures there is a pink one, I promise it's not my favourite colour and it was just the first one that I pulled out of the pack. I've already had some white pencils turn up that I'm going to use on my next build as some of it will be walnut, so they should show up much better.

Yeah, the plan is to rub out the neck outline and redraw it from a center line created from the truss rod route. Hoping to get that done at some point over the weekend, maybe even on Friday depending on the weather and a bike ride. You've already answered a question I had on which way round the truss rod goes, and righty-tighty lefty-loosey is always the best way to remember it! When I do get round to fitting the truss rod, should I have it so the nuts are halfway down the thread so then it can travel the same distance either way? I'll take a picture of what I mean next time I'm in the garage. With regards to the headstock design and the truss rod, I know what you mean by it being easier with a angled headstock, but I'm assuming the best way would be to use a scarf joint, and I didn't want to do that on my first build as it would just be another thing that could potentially go wrong. I've never been a fan of heel adjustment rods, so angeled head stocks may be the better option for me in the future.

I finally remembered to measure the plans I got from Crimson to the photocopied ones I had done, and they are both the same size so they didn't get scaled down when they were photocopied, so unless the template I got was based on a different model/year, I really don't understand why my guitar body is too small. I'm still awaiting a call from my wood guy for the ash wood to create the new body with, hopefully won't be too much longer. On the plus side, I had a delivery today! The box is damaged quite badly so I'm going to make a complaint to the delivery company about it, but thanks to the packing guy at G&W, nothing was damaged or missing (even with a big hole in the box!).

I should now have everything I need to finish the neck! I hope I have anyway! I ordered a couple of the wooden radius blocks to help clamp the fretboard down to the neck, they were cheap and it saves any potential damage to the metal one. I had the fret board thicknessed down to 6mm, and the neck black is 20mm. From my understanding, together they should be 24-25.5mm, so after the radius is done, hopefully it should be near perfect.

[steve1556]

HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I've just messed up! Badly!

I went to my friends house this morning and rough cut out the neck using his band saw as my jigsaw couldn't really do it. Just now I've been using the router on it, all was going great, until 1 bit on the headstock where the router bit caught on something and jumped. I tried a few times, each time it jumped, then it split the wood! I don't know if I should scrap the neck and get a new one, or if it's possible to fill the cracks with glue and clamp them together? I've got a picture of it below.

[Prostheta]

How deep of a cut were you taking? I hope that you weren't doing that full depth....working on end grain with a significant cut depth causes this with more regularity than you'd expect....

You can get away with glueing it back up, however you need to ensure that the glue coats all internal surfaces and that it's clamped up adequately during the drying to reduce any sort of gluelines. It's not a complete disaster, but it's not far off in that it could have been a lot worse. Have you counted your fingers yet?

[steve1556]

15 minutes ago, Prostheta said:

How deep of a cut were you taking? I hope that you weren't doing that full depth....working on end grain with a significant cut depth causes this with more regularity than you'd expect....

You can get away with glueing it back up, however you need to ensure that the glue coats all internal surfaces and that it's clamped up adequately during the drying to reduce any sort of gluelines. It's not a complete disaster, but it's not far off in that it could have been a lot worse. Have you counted your fingers yet?

I fully appreciate it could have been a hell of a lot worse and I definitely respect the router a lot more then I already did. I already respected it a lot. I clamp the work piece to the opposite side of the work bench so if anything did happen then at the the router is the little bit further away from me and my legs. 

You guessed right on what was the cause of it then, I was trying the cut the whole depth in one go (in my defence it worked well on the MDF and the rest of the neck). I was trying to take very small amounts out of the wood until the router bearing was going along the template. As the rest of the neck went OK with cutting the full depth in one go, I honestly didn't even give the the fact it's end grain a second thought.

I've got an early morning tomorrow with work so I'll try and get it glued and clamped up tonight if I get time so it's ready for when I get time later in the week to do it. If it doesn't glue 100% perfectly I'll use it as a test neck for carving, if it's still good I'll still build the guitar with it and maybe look at changing it at a later date.

Many thanks on your help again, can't tell you just how much I appreciate it!

[steve1556]

I'm about to start getting ready for bed as I've got to be up 5am for work, but thought I would post a quick update. I've glued the neck back together, i used one of those slit screwdriver nail removing head tools to spread the wood. shoved loads of glue into the splits then clamped them together. Good job I bought a load of clamps last week! I've also ordered another neck blank from G&W just in case.

One thing I did notice was that one edge of the neck is perfectly straight as per the template, but the other side isn't. I'm stumped on why it's not straight as the bearing of the router bit was running along the edge of the template, which is straight. Got a couple of pics of it lined up against the straight edge bar.

[psikoT]

Looks like you went too far while cutting with the jigsaw before routing, or maybe the cut was not perpendicular. If that's supposed to be the final width, that neck is wasted.

[Prostheta]

Yeah, that's a bit weird. How well was the template clamped up or mounted? I guess that what worries me is how much of a cut you take at a time given the bits you have on hand. The bigger the cut, the more tool pressure the cutters apply to the wood, which can cause undesirable effects, especially when your restraining force is exceeded....climb cutting especially, or end grain in general.

It's made me think, because I quit using a hand router for a lot of tasks a long time ago. When you think about the method Hands > Router > Workpiece, you soon see how the physics of that relationship become dodgy. A table router is the opposite; Hands > Workpiece > Router. Mass is a definite friend in that relationship.

[steve1556]

On 08/08/2016 at 10:29 AM, Prostheta said:

Yeah, that's a bit weird. How well was the template clamped up or mounted? I guess that what worries me is how much of a cut you take at a time given the bits you have on hand. The bigger the cut, the more tool pressure the cutters apply to the wood, which can cause undesirable effects, especially when your restraining force is exceeded....climb cutting especially, or end grain in general.

It's made me think, because I quit using a hand router for a lot of tasks a long time ago. When you think about the method Hands > Router > Workpiece, you soon see how the physics of that relationship become dodgy. A table router is the opposite; Hands > Workpiece > Router. Mass is a definite friend in that relationship.

Yeah, I don't think my router bits are ideal for small amounts of cutting. I just ordered a new 11mm depth template bit after messing the neck up, then realised I've already got a 9.5mm template bit that I had ordered previously. Would you say that around 5-6mm on each pass is OK or too much? 

I see what your saying with using the router onto the work piece rather then the work piece on the router. In fact, it makes complete sense. I'm going to see if I can attach my router onto the router table (last time I tried I used my dads router and it didn't fit). I'll try at some point. I found when I use using my dads one it was quite top heavy and felt like it was trying to tip over a lot, but the new router seems to be a lot more stable and didn't have the issue, but I'm guessing the router table will solve that issue and several others.

On 08/08/2016 at 10:11 AM, psikoT said:

Looks like you went too far while cutting with the jigsaw before routing, or maybe the cut was not perpendicular. If that's supposed to be the final width, that neck is wasted.

I've gone and inspected the neck closely and I know where the issue is now. I cut the neck out close to the line because I wanted to cause less work for the router bit, but when I attached the template it must have been no more than 2mm off the centre line which meant that the edge of the neck was behind the neck template. I've got another neck blank coming so I'll try again, making sure that I leave enough to use the router on if the template isn't 100% lined up.

[Prostheta]

I look at it as a physics problem. The cutters have to shear through the material, so an equal opposing force is exerted in response. Taking 5-6mm of depth at a time is no problem as long as the size of cut (width?) is small. I guess this is difficult for me to express since I've not really had to do so or given it much thought. Generally before routing anything, I remove all material within 3-4mm of the finished line. Making the smallest passes possible ends up being slow work, but far safer. If you don't have that option right now, then knowing that there's a risk and why it exists is as best as we can do.

These are my two mainstay cutter sizes. I bought them from neteberg.eu in Estonia. A Luna Tools 12mm diameter x 15mm length and a 19mm diameter x 25mm length. This is the exact reason I think it is wise to copy all templates off the laser from thin stock to at least 1/2" plywood. Hand routing requires a lot of stability and control. Edge routing without an offset base robs you of both, whilst larger cuts reduce control further.

 

Check this out. It's probably total shit, but it gets your cut established at shorter depths. You probably don't want to consider swapping bits often, but it better than replacing workpieces!

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Top-Bearing-Flush-Dual-Blade-Woodworking-Milling-Cutter-Router-Bit-1-4-Shank-/381722531661?hash=item58e06f974d:g:bsgAAOSw3xJXoD2j

 

[Prostheta]

These are the bits I use:

http://www.neteberg.eu/en/edge-bit-luna-8.html

21004-0408, 12 x 15, €17.00
21004-0200 19 x 25, €22.00

The 21004-0309's cutters are full size, meaning it can be plunged. The one I use can't. The prices seem expensive, however they're not in real terms. Good router bits are both insurance and an investment. Price means you'll soon learn to take care of them and not let the carbides clink around and chip themselves up too....

[steve1556]

Thanks for the info on the router bits. I ordered a shorted template one the other day, forgetting I already had one! The router bit I've already got is this one http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/350972828880?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT and it more or less matches the smaller one that you have linked to. When you said those router bits were pricey, I was expecting £50 each or something! The prices seem rather good, and when I need new ones (or if I don't get on with the current one) then I'll look at getting them. With regards to looking after the bits, I'm thinking of making a simple box for them, where the shank fits into a hole to them hold them in place. Maybe I'll get time when this guitar is finished to do that.

My router doesn't fit into the router table, so I've fitted my friends one to it so I can route the neck, however, with regards to what you say above, I'm beginning to think that it's not the best option. I mean, the template will be on the table, and the neck on top of it. When the router bit starts cutting into the neck, the uncut excess will then overhang it and I won't be able to see how much material I'm removing on each pass. It's got me wondering if using the router by hand, with the template on the top would be better as I can see how much material I'm removing on each pass, but then I lose the stability of the table. When i did it the other day, the router seemed quite stable so I'm not sure what route to take. I'm about to goto bed as I'm doing a 40-50 mile bike ride with a few others from my running club early in the morning, so I've got until the afternoon to think about what will be my best option.

Build update, the new neck blank arrived from G&W yesterday, so I marked everything out and routed the truss rod cavity. I think I may have gone too deep as there is a 1.5-2mm gap between the truss rod and the top of the cavity, will that be an issue or should I pad it out with some vaneer or similar to raise the truss rod level? Also, for the end of the truss rod, it's around 7-8mm, so the next time I do one I'll get a 8mm router bit for the end, as both times I've used a chisel to make the cavity slightly wider. My friend is on holiday so I said I would check in on his house while he is away, so while I was there I used his band saw to cut the neck blank. I made sure to leave around 5mm of excess wood around the neck to make sure i don;t have the same issue as before. When working in the garage I use my old running trainers, not the most stylish, but they still have some padding in them so are extremely comfy!

Marking out he positions of the neck/truss rod

All set up and ready to go!

Nearly there!

Mmm, maybe a bit too deep?

Using the bandsaw!

Neck roughed out, left a lot more excess wood this time, learning from mistakes!

[Prostheta]

That bit is perfect. The biggest problem of perception with bits is how much you can take at any one time. Thin templates and long cutters exacerbate that. The short depth of that bit will be a night and day difference. It might take longer, however until you use a router table or larger setup like a pin router and templating sled, that's the best way to guarantee safe and clean results. Those big 1" long bits don't help unless you have super thick templates or a router table. That they're the cheapest and most common option doesn't help either!

[Prostheta]

Still, ten fingers right? No loss. Let's get back to work man.

[curtisa]

1 hour ago, steve1556 said:

I think I may have gone too deep as there is a 1.5-2mm gap between the truss rod and the top of the cavity, will that be an issue or should I pad it out with some vaneer or similar to raise the truss rod level?

You'll need to fill the gap, otherwise the truss rod will rattle around inside your neck

Usual fix is to add a strip of timber on top of the truss rod to fill the void between the top of the truss rod and the underside of the fretboard. The strip should be a bit taller than the gap you're trying to close so that it can be planed/sanded/scraped down flush after the glue dries before fitting the fretboard.

Allied Lutherie used to suggest their trussrods be installed the same way:

Quote

These truss rods should be installed with a filler strip over them. Installing a filler greatly reduces the possibility of a truss rod rattle and reduces the amount of backlash in the rod. My installation procedure goes like this: Mill a 1/4" wide, flat bottom slot in the neck that is at least .400" deep. Make a filler strip approximately 3/16" thick that snuggly fits the truss rod slot. Rough up the flat backbone of the rod with very course sand paper or a file. This creates a good gluing surface. Put the rod in the slot with no glue. Apply epoxy to three sides of the filler and press it into place over the rod. Don't overdo it with the glue. You don't want it to squeeze down and foul up the threads.
Apply LIGHT clamping pressure along the length of the rod (see photo). You want enough pressure to eliminate any space between the flat bar and the round bar, but not so much that it makes the rod hard to turn. Check the resistance by turning the rod a quarter turn in each direction. You will notice that the filler strip sink in a little more in the middle than at the ends. After the glue dries, level off the protruding filler strip. Avoid turning the truss rod more than 1/2 turn until after the fingerboard is glued on and fully dry.

 

Fitting a timber strip under the trussrod will also work, but will be much harder to install snugly at the bottom of the channel.

[steve1556]

18 hours ago, Prostheta said:

Still, ten fingers right? No loss. Let's get back to work man.

Yep, just about got all of them remaining after using the router today! I've got the neck routed using the template, it looks straight but doesn't feel too straight, not sure why. Haven't had a chance to check it with the straight edge yet as I've gotta pop out for a tiny bit, hopefully it just needs a little light sanding. I've been looking at a few router tables, not sure if they are any good though so I'll post links later tonight.

You're right about the difference being massive with using the smaller bit, it took a lot longer but felt a lot easier! I think next time I'll do the truss rod cavity, then stick the template on top so I can cut it really close to the template on the band saw. I found the bit kept ripping up chunks of wood so I had to do several passes for each section making sure I only removed a small amount each time until the bearing touched the template. I didn't get any kicking or similar that I had with using the bigger bit which was a massive improvement.

Curtisa - thanks for the info on that. The scrap neck wood is in my friends barn, would pine work alright as I currently have loads of that in the garage, if not I'll have to pop over to my friends house.

I'll post the progress photos later tonight as I need to go out now, hoping that when I get back I'll get time to slot the frets. I tried setting up the fret slotting jig, but it seems that the saw blade is too thin and can move side to side between the rollers.

Also, looking for inlay material, I'm thinking of using celluloid sheets, but the main ones I can find are 0.8mm thick which is surely too thin. Can't seem to find any that are 2-3mm think anywhere. Also, would I do the inlays before or after I radius the fretboard?

[psikoT]

35 minutes ago, steve1556 said:

Also, looking for inlay material, I'm thinking of using celluloid sheets, but the main ones I can find are 0.8mm thick which is surely too thin. Can't seem to find any that are 2-3mm think anywhere. Also, would I do the inlays before or after I radius the fretboard?

I got a sheet of perloid from G&W which is 3 mm thick.

[Prostheta]

I do inlays before I radius, purely because I need the flat surface to work on. I guess that now I'm finishing up my pantograph, that is less of a stipulation....

[steve1556]

2 hours ago, psikoT said:

I got a sheet of perloid from G&W which is 3 mm thick.

I've just ordered some sheets from them. Ideally I needed 3 colours though so I think I may need to tweek my design a little bit.

30 minutes ago, Prostheta said:

I do inlays before I radius, purely because I need the flat surface to work on. I guess that now I'm finishing up my pantograph, that is less of a stipulation....

Now you've said it, it will be much easier to inlay before i radius, just because of the flat surface! I've just Googled a pantograph,as soon as I saw it I realised what it was, just never knew the name of them. Would love to see it all built and working when it's done!

I managed to stick the fretboard to the scale template, although while writing this I think I've made an error and I'll check tomorrow on it. The error will be that I lined it up with the notches on the scale template and not have them offset as the locating pin isn't level with the saw slot. Had another play with the miter box, there is a good 2-3mm of play with the saw from left to right, no idea how to remedy it (both the saw and miter box are from G&W.

Update pics, the neck is cut! My earlier fears of it not being straight are over, I checked it with the straight edge and it's perfect. From what I have researched, the router never leaves it 100% flat and needs sanding, which I'll do in the next few days.

Starting the routing.

Headstock started.

Time to take the template off.

And it's done!

Hopefully the wind picks up to blow away all the left over bits.

[curtisa]

7 hours ago, steve1556 said:

Curtisa - thanks for the info on that. The scrap neck wood is in my friends barn, would pine work alright as I currently have loads of that in the garage, if not I'll have to pop over to my friends house.

If you have any offcuts from the original neck blank it would be better. Pine will still probably work fine though.

[SIMpleONe89]

I think you need to take off more wood from the sides when you rough cut the neck. May be a bit dangerous to you and the work piece if you try to route too much material off. Thankfully it turned out well.