Ibanez S540 LTD Rebuild Advice

[Drak]

I don't think you'll get anywhere with a plastic scraper except turmoil and trouble. Heat guns are HOT, yo!

I'd use metal (I do)...maybe round the corners off to prevent dig ins if you want a little added protection.

The one I use is about 1.5" wide and it works perfect.

Just be present and aware and keep the blade flat to the surface, don't try to bend or twist your way under the finish, you'll do fine.

Just keep prodding it w/o trying to force it, when its heated up enough, it will let you know.

Yellow tint ?  Uhh, mine don't, can't speak for others...shooting lacquer for nearly 30 years now, no problems to report.

[axegarden]

42 minutes ago, Drak said:

I'd use metal (I do)...maybe round the corners off to prevent dig ins if you want a little added protection.

Yellow tint ?  Uhh, mine don't, can't speak for others...shooting lacquer for nearly 30 years now, no problems to report.

I'll get a metal one then hah. I can definitely round the corners, I'm afraid the mahogany is soft and I'll scratch it.

I'm still not sure what product to use for the final finish. It seems like after stains are dried I apply a few coats of sanding sealer like Mohawk, but then the final finish is yet a mystery to me. Ideally I'd have pretty glassy surface. 

[Drak]

Scratching the wood is (generally) no big deal, that's going to happen if you're stripping a finish off of it. It's digging in and dinging it that sends you backwards.

I figured you'd start asking about what finish to use soon enough...Plenty of time to contemplate that, and lots to do between now and then. What you want the final guitar to look like should be reasonably high on the priority list as you'll be buying dyes reasonably soon. This is all based on understanding priorities, what's coming soon, what's down the road...

Do you want to do a wipe-on finish? Do you want to use aerosol cans? Lacquer? Poly? Pre-Cat? (becoming popular these days among the DIY crowd) Do you have spray equipment? (guessing not)

Are you going to be spraying outside? If so, weather conditions are of paramount importance. I do shoot everything outside, and I generally am limited to two 'windows' of opportunity, seasonally speaking. Dead of summer months are WAY too humid here, shooting finishes is completely out of the question for me where I live in the summer months, so I'm always planning builds according to potential shooting opportunities (weather-wise). There are months upon months where I cannot touch a spray gun at all, but I'm used to it. I know my weather limitations like the back of my hand, and I stick to them like glue. Trying to overrule the weather is just asking to make mistakes and send yourself flying backwards. All this needs to be evaluated and answered...but not today.

If you get your plan together, this will all be listed and sorted out in your order of operations. Because...there are things you need to start considering now, and things you have the Time to consider that are down the road. Finishes, for example, you now have weeks, if not maybe months, to search, ask, and investigate. Stripping, OTOH, is right around the corner, see what I mean? You can figure out how to use your time effectively on subjects that are coming down the road, but aren't here yet.

What's the plan? What's the final guitar actually look like? Can you see it in your mind's eye? That needs your attention, that's a priority to spend some time on.

[Bizman62]

9 hours ago, axegarden said:

Can you link to your water dye build?

The dye part is on page 4 or so, but I guess you might find a trick or two to fix various issues along the route. And just as a reminder, there's a layer of alcohol based dye wiped all over the top, the back being all alcohol.

[curtisa]

10 hours ago, axegarden said:

I'm definitely going to be shielding the cavities, then.

Save yourself the trouble. With two humbuckers you won't need shielding in the pickup cavities. The amount of noise reduction possible from a thin layer of paint is far outweighed by the noise cancelling abilities of the pickups themselves.

[axegarden]

5 hours ago, Bizman62 said:

 And just as a reminder, there's a layer of alcohol based dye wiped all over the top, the back being all alcohol.

Aha! Tell me the secrets of why or why not you would mix water stains with alcohol stains. I imagine they "sit" at different layers in the wood, since they have different dry times? Besides that I know the colors have a different vibrancy...Sounds like you "washed" it? Like applying a tint all over?

What do you think of using a pre-catalyzed lacquer for the finishing coats? I'm pretty sure the existing top is a poly-x, and I like that glassy surface. Can I achieve something like that without a spray rig? Thx bizman

[axegarden]

4 hours ago, curtisa said:

Save yourself the trouble. With two humbuckers you won't need shielding in the pickup cavities. The amount of noise reduction possible from a thin layer of paint is far outweighed by the noise cancelling abilities of the pickups themselves.

Well I don't plan on using the paint-form, that seems ... less than ideal. I would use foil-like metal shielding. There is a single coil in this guitar but I almost never use it (I know they tend to be noisier. What is the logic behind your comment? I only have novice-level knowledge of electronics. In my experience, I thought humbuckers were typically "hot", and would likely pick up "noise". I appreciate your input, thanks!

[Bizman62]

24 minutes ago, axegarden said:

Tell me the secrets of why or why not you would mix water stains with alcohol stains.

I would mix them for the reasons shown in the Crimson videos: If you apply alcohol based dye first, let's say like bright yellow, it won't blend to green if you apply water based blue stain over it. That's one way to get the Caribbean Sea effect on a flamed maple top.  If you use water based dye for both you'll get a blotchy green. If you want to make a sunburst turning from black through red to yellow/amber, apply the yellow as alcohol based first all over, then the water based red where it needs to be, then water based yellow to the center smudging the edge of the red ring, then water based black to the outer ring, again smudging with the red. You can even do the blending from one colour to the other with a wet rag, using circular movements or swipes from one colour to the other. As you'll see in my thread, I very much redid the top today to get the burst smoother and the center lighter.

 

30 minutes ago, axegarden said:

I thought humbuckers were typically "hot", and would likely pick up "noise".

Yes, they can be "hot" but they're also noise cancelling by nature. On a single coil pickup the coil runs one direction only which will catch any electric noise like the hiss of fluorescent lights. On a humbucker there's two single coils wound in opposite directions which effectively makes the unwanted noise signals to counteract each other. The metal housing often used also creates sort of a Faraday cage to further cancel noise.

[axegarden]

11 hours ago, Drak said:

Do you want to do a wipe-on finish? Do you want to use aerosol cans? Lacquer? Poly? Pre-Cat? (becoming popular these days among the DIY crowd) Do you have spray equipment? (guessing not)

Are you going to be spraying outside? If so, weather conditions are of paramount importance. I do shoot everything outside, and I generally am limited to two 'windows' of opportunity, seasonally speaking. Dead of summer months are WAY too humid here, shooting finishes is completely out of the question for me where I live in the summer months, so I'm always planning builds according to potential shooting opportunities (weather-wise). There are months upon months where I cannot touch a spray gun at all, but I'm used to it. I know my weather limitations like the back of my hand, and I stick to them like glue. Trying to overrule the weather is just asking to make mistakes and send yourself flying backwards. All this needs to be evaluated and answered...but not today.

From what I have thus gathered, wipe-on finishes are generally softer, like vinyl, and doesn't provide as much "glossiness" as spray-on finishes. And since I do not have a spray rig, it seems a spray-on pre-catalyzed lacquer is the way to go (considering my novice experience, equipment and $$$). The ones I've seen done online seem just fine for me. 

As for weather, I might be effed. I live in a humid area of Virginia, like with a creek and swamp on my 7 acres. The warm weather is typically humid. I have a garage with two doors on opposite walls, such that fresh air can blow through. That's where I was planning to spray. What is the ideal humidity? Apparently pre-cats should also be applied when it is slightly warm, rather than chilly. Does this mean I can (likely) only spray on like, today (the vernal equinox) and the autumn equinox? lol like not summer, not winter, but those sweet spots in between?

[axegarden]

36 minutes ago, Bizman62 said:

I would mix them for the reasons shown in the Crimson videos: If you apply alcohol based dye first, let's say like bright yellow, it won't blend to green if you apply water based blue stain over it. That's one way to get the Caribbean Sea effect on a flamed maple top.  If you use water based dye for both you'll get a blotchy green. If you want to make a sunburst turning from black through red to yellow/amber, apply the yellow as alcohol based first all over, then the water based red where it needs to be, then water based yellow to the center smudging the edge of the red ring, then water based black to the outer ring, again smudging with the red. You can even do the blending from one colour to the other with a wet rag, using circular movements or swipes from one colour to the other. As you'll see in my thread, I very much redid the top today to get the burst smoother and the center lighter.

Ok that all makes sense, thank you for this. But another user in this thread, Drak, had said that they mix water into alcohol dies "if the situation calls for it". In those cases, because some water is in the alcohol stain, subsequent water based stains would blotch together, right? They will only stay apart from each other if one color stain is 100% alcohol and the other color stain is 100% water, I assume. 

I'm gonna check out your thread today (as long as my gf stops making fun of all the time i'm spending reading about guitar building, lol you know how it is). 

[Bizman62]

1 minute ago, axegarden said:

they mix water into alcohol dies "if the situation calls for it"

Adding water to alcohol makes the "open time" a bit longer. So it will dry faster than water but slower than alcohol. The "situation" mentioned can mean something like normally using plain alcohol but on a hot day some water added would give you the time needed to spread the dye evenly.

Note that if you want to apply colours in layers rather than blending them, the underlaying layer has to be completely dry. And, since the concentrated dyes can be mixed both with water or alcohol, even the alcohol based layer will eventually blend with the water based layer if you really soak the wood.

[Drak]

 

2 hours ago, axegarden said:

But another user in this thread, Drak, had said that they mix water into alcohol dies "if the situation calls for it"

Yeah, I probably shouldn't have 'gone there' since this is your first and maybe only refinish.

There are many tricks and tips you can get under your belt with time and experience.

But trickery, really, has no place for someone on their first finish, I should say that.

A person must have the basics well and firmly in hand before they can 'go gangsta' style and shoot loose from the hip.

You have to know the rules and limitations and experience the rules for yourself before you can break and bend the rules and get away cleanly with it.

That would firmly fall in the category of 'not' planning for successful outcomes by making 'gangsta' finishing choices before you know what you can get away with.

 

PS, I live in MD so your shoot conditions should be similar to mine, maybe a little worse since you're a little farther South.

But, shooting season (weather) is here, it literally just started today, and should be OK until ...maybe...sometime in May.

I check my local weather station online all the time before I pick up a gun, looking for humidity of 55% or less.

50%, really, is the limit, but I can push it a little by using a bit of retarder.

Anything past 55% generally spells troubles, problems, and fixing things I'd rather not have to fix in the first place.

[axegarden]

40 minutes ago, Drak said:

PS, I live in MD so your shoot conditions should be similar to mine, maybe a little worse since you're a little farther South.

But, shooting season (weather) is here, it literally just started today, and should be OK until ...maybe...sometime in May.

I check my local weather station online all the time before I pick up a gun, looking for humidity of 55% or less.

50%, really, is the limit, but I can push it a little by using a bit of retarder.

Anything past 55% generally spells troubles, problems, and fixing things I'd rather not have to fix in the first place.

Thanks for the advice, I have a feeling this won't be my only refinish. I've been totally enthralled with the subject for like 72 hours and I'm already planning to get some maple top Tele Kit, lol.  I've always wanted a Tele and what's better than one I assembled, right? haha. Any suggestions? It seems like Warmoth is a quality kit provider. I really want that small Tele-type neck too, I forget what it's called/the shape. 

Today's the equinox, so that makes some sense. I just got my soldering kit so I'll disassemble tonight and scrape tomorrow, probably. I should be able to get this done by May.

I'll find an orbital sander somewhere, and I guess I should go ahead and order some Crimson water dyes and Angelus alcohols. I'll get black, (royal) blue, and purple, from each company, and see what results I can get on some scrap mahogany that I'll pick up this coming week.

I get a little obsessed with new projects and this one has me literally dreaming about finishing guitars  thanks all

[Bizman62]

51 minutes ago, Drak said:

PS, I live in MD so your shoot conditions should be similar to mine,

You'd better listen to your local guy, @axegarden!

 

[Bizman62]

1 minute ago, axegarden said:

order some Crimson water dyes

Get the Stunning Stain Shots, they weigh less so you don't have to pay for mailing water. You can then mix them either with water or alcohol so you'll get both in the same tiny bottles!

[Drak]

2 hours ago, axegarden said:

I'm already planning to get some maple top Tele Kit, lol. 

Don't ask me how I know...but I knew that (or something like it)...was coming.

[curtisa]

7 hours ago, axegarden said:

Well I don't plan on using the paint-form, that seems ... less than ideal. I would use foil-like metal shielding. There is a single coil in this guitar but I almost never use it (I know they tend to be noisier. What is the logic behind your comment? I only have novice-level knowledge of electronics. In my experience, I thought humbuckers were typically "hot", and would likely pick up "noise". I appreciate your input, thanks!

@Bizman62 has largely answered before me, but adding shielding within the humbucker pickup cavities just creates more work for yourself for very little gain. You might see some improvement on the single coil pickup noise performance when it is selected by itself, but it will always be more noisy in comparison to the humbuckers.

Aesthetically I'd perpetually be kicking myself if I could see the copper foil showing around the pickups too. It's fine if you can hide it behind a scratchplate, but in the S540 body shape they'll always be on show.

[axegarden]

1 hour ago, curtisa said:

Aesthetically I'd perpetually be kicking myself if I could see the copper foil showing around the pickups too. It's fine if you can hide it behind a scratchplate, but in the S540 body shape they'll always be on show.

You're very right, that is a frightening image. I guess I'll leave shielding out of it. 

[axegarden]

Here's the result of the 30 min of heat-gunning I had time to do today. It looks like the "Jet Blue" finish is essentially a layer of metallic silver with trans blue over it. Strangely, the metallic layer was less willing to come off in scrapes. I hope it comes off with stripper?

This is a small portion of a part where the metallic layer came off in a chunk. You can see how porous the mahogany wood is underneath. Any recommendations for a good wood-filler compatible with staining/dyeing?  Or a stripper?

[Drak]

1 hour ago, axegarden said:

This is a small portion of a part where the metallic layer came off in a chunk. You can see how porous the mahogany wood is underneath. Any recommendations for a good wood-filler compatible with staining/dyeing?  Or a stripper?

Unless I'm missing something, I'm not seeing a problem, or the need of a chemical stripper, or any wood filler. Unless you show me a chunk of wood that came up with the finish (which I'm not seeing), in which case I'd just tell you to get it hotter. You're going to sand the entire thing anyway once you get the finish off of it.

I don't see any burn marks, so my recommendation would be to (1)shrink the area you're working on down and (2)get it hotter. The hotter you get it, the more it will want to loosen its grip and let go.

They may have used a bonding agent or some kind of primer, but whatever, nothing is going to stop a heat gun. That's what I got for now, just keep going, get your area hotter, and work smaller areas at a time. Also, if you're using a metal putty knife, try to 'pry' with the grain, in the direction of the grain, don't go in sideways against it. I only say that in case you're not getting it hot enough and a piece of wood actually will want to come up with the finish. Getting it hotter will reduce that possibility.

Because I'm not sure yet you're getting it hot enough. I think you're just getting it hot enough to 'just' break loose, but there is a temp. range available to you. And I think you're at the lesser end of the heat spectrum, which is making it more difficult than it need be.

The hotter you get it, the easier it becomes to 'work' the finish off. As I said, there is a certain 'finesse' when it comes to heat-gunning finishes off.

[Bizman62]

My experience with heat-gunning tells that when the heated finish starts to bubble it's time to scrape. When it starts to change colour it's time to stop heating that area and scrape the finish off quickly until it cools down. When the finish has changed to dark brown/black and the bubbles start to sink, you're in trouble. Not only is the wood most likely a bit charred, the burned finish will also stick harder and reheating will then only make things worse.

So, fast local heating and peeling when hot. Much like waxing a car: Wax on, wax off.

[axegarden]

12 hours ago, Drak said:

They may have used a bonding agent or some kind of primer, but whatever, nothing is going to stop a heat gun. That's what I got for now, just keep going, get your area hotter, and work smaller areas at a time. Also, if you're using a metal putty knife, try to 'pry' with the grain, in the direction of the grain, don't go in sideways against it. I only say that in case you're not getting it hot enough and a piece of wood actually will want to come up with the finish. Getting it hotter will reduce that possibility.

Yeah I figured I might have to get it hotter to get that metallic layer off. Whatever the metallic material is, it is acting much different than the rest.

6 hours ago, Bizman62 said:

My experience with heat-gunning tells that when the heated finish starts to bubble it's time to scrape. When it starts to change colour it's time to stop heating that area and scrape the finish off quickly until it cools down. When the finish has changed to dark brown/black and the bubbles start to sink, you're in trouble. Not only is the wood most likely a bit charred, the burned finish will also stick harder and reheating will then only make things worse.

So, fast local heating and peeling when hot. Much like waxing a car: Wax on, wax off.

So, as I was heat-gunning I started to notice the blue beginning to discolor, and I scraped when I saw this. Not brown/black, just starting to get more grey-ish - i figured this was a sign to scrape. But I'll get it a little hotter, and look for bubbling. 

On another note, I talked to a carpenter coworker this morning, he suggested I might need something like Minwax Pre-stain Conditioner. It seems like that stuff is used for porous wood, but it also seems it's used for oil-based dyes. Anyone have experience with it? Is it necessary for my project?

[Drak]

So I will use the words ' temperature range' and 'finesse' again. As I said, I have a feeling you're 'just' creeping up 'into range' temp-wise, but at the low end. I understand that, you're being cautious and that is normal. But being overly cautious, with heat-gunning, makes your job harder. Being overly cautious And impatient is the worst combination and achieves the worst results.

Bubbling and burning are at the other end of that heat spectrum, that's too hot and will burn the wood underneath, creating problems nobody wants. This is where the word finesse comes in. Finesse comes with experience, and you're gaining experience in real time and observing your results. You're learning as you go, and reporting results, which is all excellent.

But understand 'the range' now, patiently go a little further (heatwise) than you have, and be observant and mindful. If you notice bubbling or burning or smoke, notice that too (and avoid it) but notice how long it took to 'get there'. And you will start to understand the temperature range available and the time in between too cold and burning/smoking.

That's where heat-gunning becomes like a performance art, when you know the sweet spot and can hit it w/o being too cool or too hot. That is the artistry of heat-gunning, and it only comes with time and repeated efforts, being conscious of both extremes. That's where (and why) you need to take your time and not rush through it.

You'll pass through 'the window' too quickly if you're impatient and go right to burning and bubbling, and you'll get frustrated by the finish not 'cooperating' if you never get to the middle of the window. When you get the hang of it, it's actually kind of fun and enjoyable. You're doing fine, you're learning along the way, just push the envelope a little bit further and don't rush it. You're looking for 'the window' of opportunity. Not too hot, not too cold, either way presents problems. When you learn to wait patiently for the sweet spot, then peel it off somewhat easily (or easier), you'll see the art of waiting for 'the window' and know when to pounce.

Heat...and time...those are the factors you're working with here, you're manipulating both of them to your maximum benefit.

The heat gun in the right hands is just like a paintbrush in the hands of a skilled painter who knows what that brush can do and can extract much out of it.

 

About the pre-stain conditioner, I would advise against it, but everyone has an opinion.

[Bizman62]

4 minutes ago, Drak said:

Bubbling and burning are at the other end of that heat spectrum, that's too hot and will burn the wood underneath, creating problems nobody wants. This is where the word finesse comes in

Yes, my English may failed a bit on me with the "bubbling". When it's bubbling like boiling water it's definitely at the too hot end. "Starts to bubble" in my book means it's starting to wobble (?), raise (?), lift (?) instead of bursting into little bursting and burning bubbles. It's somewhat similar to steam raising the lid of a kettle the first time - most likely there's no moisture that would steam inside the pores of dry wood but there's some air that expands when heated. Thus it's important to heat the wood fast as deep as possible before the paint starts to cook.

[axegarden]

Here's today's small progress. The metallic layer is definitely a pain. It bubbles a little but still won't readily come off. I don't know how I got it off so easily with my fingers when the hole first opened a fear years ago. It seems like it'll sand off easily enough. It's a little hard to make out but the grain looks glorious so far (for mahogany, yaknow). 

The bubbling tip helped. I had to point the heat gun closer to the body, essentially. I move it around to keep one area from burning, but (funnily enough) I glanced away, as one does, to see a bird or something but I looked back to find a bubble and crack in the finish opening up - I scraped. It came off easy. It was nice. I can definitely see "the range" of temperature idea. In my experience you can see the finish become glossier as it softens, like melting butter. For some reason this finish is quick to discolor, and give off chemical fumes, well before it begins to bubble. But all is well, next I'll tackle the back and sides, and maybe try to get some scrapes inside the cavities.