Barbless/tangless frets

[ShatnersBassoon]

I can’t help but wonder if the way of installing frets is somewhat problematic.

The frets are kind of forced in, which can cause many issues with regards to making sure that they seat perfectly flush with the board. Then there’s risk of some minor chip out. There’s also the issue of causing a back bow. 

I would have thought that frets with no barbs would alleviate a lot of these problems? Ofcourse they would need to be clamped and glued. Is this a sustain thing? Would it ring out the same sonically speaking? 

Anyway, just some thoughts. I’m probably missing a lot of factors here. 

[henrim]

I've thought about fretting a bit too. The way they are typically installed feels kinda archaic. You start with dimensionally accurate material, bend it and then hammer it in. After which you try to fix all the dents and bumps you have caused. Of course this all can be pretty much avoided with proper tools and careful craftsmanship. In my thinking levelling should not be needed at all. Hard to avoid completely, though.

The thing is the barbs act like hooks which keep the frets seated. Nowadays CA glue is often used in fret installation but it is not supposed to actually glue the fret in place but to fill any caps in the slot and thus form a more uniform space for the barbs to sit in. Metal and wood have different thermal expansion characteristics so glueing metal to wood would form a weak bond. Or restrict wood from moving the way it naturally would and cause cracking. Maybe a lacquered board with epoxy glue could form a relatively strong bond.

All the different ways I have thought about making fretting differently have a common weak point. Re-fretting would be expensive. If re-fretting is needed the "archaic" way is still relatively easy and cost effective method. And in many cases can be carried out without changing the whole fretboard.

 

 

[ShatnersBassoon]

29 minutes ago, henrim said:

Metal and wood have different thermal expansion characteristics so glueing metal to wood would form a weak bond. Or restrict wood from moving the way it naturally would and cause cracking. Maybe a lacquered board with epoxy glue could form a relatively strong bond.

Ofcourse, a material like carbon fibre can be used as a fretboard. But then we are getting in the space age aesthetic, which isn’t always the territory one wants to go down. And when you start using alternative materials it becomes a bit more like boat building than building a guitar They have quirks when it comes to working with them. 

Yes, it is rather ‘archaic’. I think that’s the word I was looking for. There’s a reason it’s been done this way for so many years I suppose. 

[curtisa]

One of the 'innovations' of the Parker Fly was to glue the frets directly to the surface of the fretboard. The frets didn't have tangs and were effectively just stainless steel bars with a flat back. Frets dropping off the fretboard over time as the glue failed became an issue for some users though. The fret radius also had to be an exact match to the fretboard, as there's no tang/slot for the fret to hang on to.

The frets on a Chapman Stick are stainless steel square rods turned 45 degrees and one triangular edge embedded into the fretboard.

[henrim]

Glueing metal to plastic is only slightly better idea than glueing metal to wood. Carbon fibre reinforced plastic doesn't react to temperature changes like wood does but then again there is very little for the glue to stick to. I know they build all kinds of sheetmetal constructions with double sided tape today so I'm probably old fashioned in my thinking that similar metals are welded together, different alloys brazed or soldered and if metal is attached to any other material there has to be a mechanical bond. 

51 minutes ago, curtisa said:

The frets on a Chapman Stick are stainless steel square rods turned 45 degrees and one triangular edge embedded into the fretboard.

That is interesting. I wasn't aware of that kind of construction existed. I have seen the instrument but never studied it up close. It looks like the square rod is embedded into wood and only one edge is sticking proud of the fretboard surface. Strong bond and unlike milled metal boards there is still the wood base. Difficult to make and close to impossible to repair, though.

[ShatnersBassoon]

11 hours ago, curtisa said:

One of the 'innovations' of the Parker Fly was to glue the frets directly to the surface of the fretboard. The frets didn't have tangs and were effectively just stainless steel bars with a flat back. Frets dropping off the fretboard over time as the glue failed became an issue for some users though. The fret radius also had to be an exact match to the fretboard, as there's no tang/slot for the fret to hang on to.

The frets on a Chapman Stick are stainless steel square rods turned 45 degrees and one triangular edge embedded into the fretboard.

With regards I the Parkers, I seem to remember (and feel free to correct me if I’m wrong) that the flat bottoms of the frets were recessed slightly in to the board.

I also have heard of problems with the frets falling off. So it’s by the by

[soapbarstrat]

Sintoms might make barbless fretwire. I think I would prefer barbless if I built new necks. Hell, I’ve often shaved down the barbs for refrets.