Project Lucy-- my first

[rhoads56]

2. The tricky part about shaving away the edges will be getting them to mate up square with the body. My first thought was that shaving away the edges would be the best course of action, but then I got stuck on how to do it precisely for a good glue join. I'll try clamping dry before I try clamping steamed. Any other opinions on the steaming? Still not sure why it'd be a 'bad' idea necessarily, but I don't intend to start a debate on this thread.

Because to steam it, you will destroy the glue line, and it will take forever to do. It is also the hardest and most prone to failure/mistakes way of doing it. I think people underestimate the amount of steam required to bend large sections of timber. It will take an hour of steaming to soften that timber sufficiently, and it'll probably take an hour or four to make the steaming box.

Just spend 15-30 minutes with a plane and do it the easier way.

[GregP]

If I had a plane, that is.

Decent planes seem to run about a hundred bucks. Although I haven't given myself a strict budget, that seems a bit extravagent at this stage of my guitar-building career.

[GregP]

OK, here we go again. I'll post in multiples so that the page'll break to the next more quickly for the dial-up people.

First of all, some of the menial stuff is taken care of--

Using my handy spreadsheet that I made, I tracked down what I had left to buy, and bought it. The bad news is that I had to spread my purchases around after all. I used Universal Jems, StewMac, LMI, local retailers, and A & M woods. I still need to hit Wal-Mart for a plastic garbage bin from which to construct my control cavity. <grin>

I also bought (hopefully) the last of my tools-- a pair of Freud router bits, as per Litchfield's recommendation. I got a 1/2" flush trim bit for the template routing and a 3/16" dual-flanged straight bit for the truss rod channel. This is less than half as wide as it needs to be, but the other option was to go bigger, so I figured I'd go smaller and route the channel in multiple passes.

Next up-- the maple problem has solved itself. I dry-clamped it between 2 flat pieces of MDF and let it sit around for several days. Not that I figured the more time the better, but I wasn't doing anything else with it anyhow. When I unclamped'er there was only about a 1mm cupping going on still. I let'er sit for a few days to see if she sprang back to the way she was, but it's still only 1 mm. Minimal hand-pressure flattens it, so I'm sure wood glue will sort me out without having to go to anything fancier.

Finally, I had a chance to hit a bandsaw at one of the schools I teach for. As it turns out, I might as well have just hacked at'er with my scroll saw at home and paid a few bucks for the inevitable replacement blades. Why? Either I completely suck with a bandsaw, or the bandsaw wasn't set up well. I already realized that really tight curves wouldn't work, which is fine. But what I didn't count on is that shallow-angle entry would nudge and bend the blade a bit sideways, making it tricky to get the blade to 'grab' at certain points in time. I elected to stay WAY wide of my lines because of my lack of ability. Sorry for the weak-eyed, you'll have to squint to see the pencil marks for the outline:

Still, ultimately I felt that a bandsaw made life a bit easier, and the only thing I had to do was wait for a day that I was going to be teaching at that school. No worries!

[GregP]

Today's work involved using the flush-trim router bit on the maple. I decided to start with the maple because it was more cheaply replaced if I screwed it up.

What follows is a comedy of errors-- follow closely and see how many screw-ups you can count, children!

First thing was deciding how to secure the template to the wood. Having watched the Wayne Guitars video, I realized that screwing would be the way to go. I'm not sure where he screws his, but I know something's further back... the trem cavity maybe? In any case, the only thing I knew for sure is that I could screw into the humbucker cavities with no worries.

I hadn't really drawn a proper centre line for the template yet, so I did so, and using the paper mock-up of the guitar figured out where the 'bucker cavities would be and marked them with an 'x' on the line.

Now, although *I* had already realized one of my mistakes by this time, what you forum members haven't been told yet is that when I cut my rough out with the bandsaw, I hadn't measured accurate centre lines. I planned to... I meant to... but when I finally got bandsaw access, I had forgotten to mark the wood in advance. Hence, neither my limba nor my maple have their join line as the centre-line, which is a minor hassle, but an annoying one. I hoped that with the excess I had left, I could 'shift' it around a bit to reclaim my join as the centre, but it was no use, so I elected to give up on that and just attach the template in a way that would provide the most amount of excess wood around all edges.

I drilled the template first, used those holes to mark the maple, then pre-drilled the maple with a bit the size of the screw's shaft (not the threads... obvious to most, but not to all!). Slapped'er together and you get what you see above.

At the same time, I decided that instead of just routing around the entire template (which was imperfect due to my imperfect methods as seen previously in this thread) I would rout half, then flip the template over, then rout the other half so that both sides would have symmetrical errors.

Before getting into the routing, I wanted to even out a few of the worse bits of bandsaw work, because I suspected they'd potentially cause some ripping out when the router bit contacted them. Check out the other flaws, too!:

And then smoothed:

That sorted, I practiced a bit on some test wood. I had NO idea what it felt like to use a router, and all this recent talk of torque and free-hand routing made me a bit worried that my router would fling itself across the room, bouncing off walls and eventually lodging itself in my nether regions. If you don't tell anyone else (shhhhh....) I'll admit that I shoved a hunk of wood down the front of my pants as a makeshift jockstrap the very first time I flicked the "on" switch and made a practice cut. Gratuitous shot of me starting-- don't look for the wood block 'cause it ain't there:

[GregP]

Before long, I encountered another error... I hadn't double-checked the depth of the router! I had the bit as exposed as it could go (while fully lodged into the... er... bit-holder-thingy) so I figured I was safe. As it turns out, I was about 1 mm or less (it was near paper-thin!) shy of being 'safe':

I unplugged the router (better safe than sorry!) and moved the bit out by about 2 mm, clamped her TIGHT and went back at 'er. Having done the first bit (I only exposed a portion at a time so that I could have firm clamping), I slid the body around a bit so that I could continue with a new portion. Thankfully I had written a message on the board which was only meant as a reminder for the initial rout... not for the middle of the job! Anyhow, my eye caught the message in time:

so I unclamped it, slid it around to expose the part I was SUPPOSED to be working on, and continued. That's when I ran into another problem! It should have been obvious, but... well... you know how it is. I hadn't countersunk the wood screws, so the edge of the router plate was stopping at the screw's head. At first I couldn't figure out why the router wouldn't continue where I wanted it to! Powered down, and proceeded to countersink the screws (one completed one not, in the following picture):

[GregP]

At some point in time, I went a bit off axle, so a small ding resulted:

It's so minor that I'm not sure whether I'm going to sand 'er out or fill'er in. Also, it'll be on the bottom, so it won't be a constant visual reminder of the lack of perfection, if I can't sort it out.

The rest of the routing went without incident... I had a picture to post, but it looks a whole lot like the other pictures of my unformed guitar... a hunk of wood with the same shape as all the other hunks. Things will be more interesting when I start routing out the chambers and doing the neck. The chambers will probably be this weekend, and I still haven't sorted out how to tackle the neck yet... I'm so convinced that I'm going to do something drastically 'out of order' that I've been holding off.

Cheers,

Greg

[GregP]

Oh, and since 'carving' will be coming in the near future:

Any suggestions on how to clamp my 5/8" thick piece of maple so that the clamps don't get in the way of the router when I try to do something similar to what Jon Tirone does with his Les Paul in THIS tutorial?

My idea is to use the existing holes, screw it onto another piece of wood or MDF, which is in turn clamped onto the table. I see no reason that wouldn't work, but if anyone has any ideas I'm always open to them!

[Edit: I think I've answered my own question, but I'll leave the rest of the post up there for posterity-- it'd likely be best to laminate the top to the guitar first, so that I'm getting proper thickness and flat surfaces, etc. for the glueing and clamping! That's something I already thought about but I forgot that's the conclusion I reached. <laff>]

2 more questions instead, then:

1. How do I clamp the whole guitar down?

2. How thick/thin should the maple top be, at the edge of the guitar? Keeping in mind that I'll be adding 1/4" binding as well.

Greg

Edited April 30, 2004 by GregP

[Guest Litchfield Custom Gutars]

Looking great. Never pictured you so young, but then so am I

[GregP]

Looks are deceiving. I'm 30.

Greg

[MKGBass]

Greg, traditionally guitars usually leave about 1/4" thickness of the top after the carve, but because your top is only 5/8" your carve will not likely look like anything. Since you're doing a binding (i'm assuming you didnt mean Natural binding), I think it would be best for you to carve the top all 5/8" of the way. and the binding can be in the limba. This way, you still see the whole top, and your carve is still pronounced and purdy. Also, route the binding channel before you carve the top, you'll find yourself not a happy man if you do otherwise.

ps. i'd still like to see a pic of the whole thing cut to size, it looks pretty cool so far.

[GregP]

Thanks for the input.

5/8" is the standard Les Paul carving top size, so I thought I'd get more of a carve than that, no? If I leave only 1/8", that still leaves 1/2" worth of height to carve. The 335 isn't known for having a dramatic dome anyhow, so it's only my intention to use a subtle carve. Even with a 1/4" 'leave' at the edge, that would leave another 3/8" for the carve.

That said, your idea to go right down to the limba near the edges is still viable. I was only worried about having the transition between the maple and the limba look too obvious, if I don't turn out to be very successful at smoothing and sanding, etc. Ie. seeing a wee line or a change in texture when it goes from maple to Limba.

Oh, and the maple top, cut to size. I hadn't done anything with the photo yet, but as it turns out I didn't even get it all in the picture. I told the company to send me unfigured and non-bookmatched to save a bit of money, but even without spraying you can see some nice figure in there... makes me wonder what their figured stuff is like! Up at the neck pocket area, you can see that it widens a bit. That's where the template ended, and I didn't bother 'cleaning it up' since I'm not sure what to do for the neck attachment yet. Anyhow, in its truncated glory:

Cheers!

Edited May 1, 2004 by GregP

[GregP]

While I'm waiting for a comment on the carved top issue, I have another one:

I'm chambering out as much of the body as possible, but I have some concerns--

If you recall, my maple is slightly cupped. I've decided that the glue should hold it in place just fine, as the cupping is very subtle, and has already been partially corrected by dry-clamping. I still want to make sure I have a strong glue job going on. So,

*How much wood should I leave around the edges, as a gluing surface? Would 1" wide all the way around be enough?

*Would I be better off gluing it so that the edges hold the top in place, or flip it over so that the edges are flush but the middle holds it all down and flat? I mean, I'll be gluing both the edges AND the middle, but I just need to figure out which will be more efficient for keeping the maple flat and secure

*For the controls, I don't really need to 'back rout' the limba, do I? I could use the maple top for mounting the controls, and in that area just go all the way through the limba from front to bad, no?

------------------------------------------------------

I'm not sure if I'm being very clear, so I'll just explain what I WOULD do if I didn't have this forum, and you can feel free to jump in and tell me if you have a strong opinion to the contrary, as well as your reasoning:

*Although I'd like to chamber out as much as possible, I'm not going to touch the middle at all, so there will be a solid hunk of wood going down the centre of the guitar, wide enough for the bridge and buckers. This will be partially for stability, but mainly because at least I know I won't be f---ing it up this way.

*I will leave 1.5" around the edge, to give enough support for the glue when I attach the top. I'd like to leave less, but I'm not certain that I'll have enough surface area, since my wood is slightly cupped and I want a strong glue join

*I will place the cupped maple (remembering it's only slightly cupped, barely detectable, so it's not like I'm trying to fix a full-on warp) so that it's touching at the sides, with the gap in the middle. When the wood is pressed down, I'll be counting on all that extra wood I've left in the middle to provide a strong gluing surface for keeping the maple in place.

*Where the control cavity is, I will rout completely through the limba part of the body. The maple top will provide a flat mounting surface for the controls.

Greg

Edited May 3, 2004 by GregP

[Guest Litchfield Custom Gutars]

Shrink wrap will help hold it down.

[GregP]

Cool, I actually really dig that tip. I'm going to give it a whirl for sure. Do you figure I should put it with the 'gap' around the edges, and slam'er down, or with the 'gap' in the middle? After chambering, there will be more gluing surface area along the middle than around the edges.

(Like my artwork? <big grin>)

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated, and I mean that sincerely... knowledge is not a cheap commodity to me.

[Guest Litchfield Custom Gutars]

Clamp the edges as good as you can. Then shrinik wrap it to hold ti flat...like I did in my thread with the cherry

[Setch]

Half an inch is plenty of gluing area at the edges - if you leave 1.5 inches, and a solid centre block I think you'll be suprised how little wood you end up removing.

I'd suggest you adopt approach no.1 for gluing the top - it's always tough to get the middle clamped unless you have a long reach cam clamp or similar, so take advantage of the hand you've been dealt, and let the cupping help you clamp the middle. This is what I did on my last guitar, and it worked perfectly (same applies to the 1/2 inch sides and solid centre block).

[rhoads56]

Gap to centre, will use half the number of clamps (assuming they reach the centre). Gap to outside will look absolutely **** when the cling wrap doesnt hold it (assuming you dont have ten clamps).

[GregP]

Thanks for the replies, folks. Much appreciated.

Assuming I can get a good strong clamp using either direction (I'm sure I can... I have lots of clamps at my disposal), is there any compelling reason to choose one over the other? I'm leaning towards gap to the outside and clamping down.

Thanks for the info about the edges, too. If 1.5" is overkill, I'm definitely interested in scaling that back. 0.5" still seems pretty thin, though; however, not having any experience in the matter whatsoever, it may be plenty. I'd be interested in hearing other opinions, otherwise I think I'll scale it back to 0.75", which is still a healthy improvement over what I was going to do.

Greg

[rhoads56]

I prefer to use 25 spool clamps to hold the rim, and two large clamps to hold the centre. If its cupped to have a gap at the edges, do it like that, ASSUMING you have enough clamps. Cling wrap will not hold timber long enough, unless its dead flat already. Make some spool clamps, they are like gold.

[GregP]

Thanks for that. Off to find out what a spool clamp is.

Edit: Just found'em... wouldn't you know that Google.ca shows the StewMac ones as the first hit?

Greg

[rhoads56]

Greg, go to my website, follow through the building of the guitar, and i talk about how i make 30 or so spools clamps for under $10. Its pretty basic advice, but you'll get the idea.

[Primal]

Cool, I actually really dig that tip. I'm going to give it a whirl for sure. Do you figure I should put it with the 'gap' around the edges, and slam'er down, or with the 'gap' in the middle? After chambering, there will be more gluing surface area along the middle than around the edges.

(Like my artwork? <big grin>)

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated, and I mean that sincerely... knowledge is not a cheap commodity to me.

Definately use #1. If you do that, then when you clamp the outside edges, the cup will clamp itself so to speak.

[GregP]

That makes sense, too. I'm sold on option #1! Rhoads, I'm off to check out your website... I don't think I've visited that portion of it before.

Tomorrow... I post pictures of my scarf-joint neck-cutting excursion! Considering everything I went through, the results were pretty good!

Now if only my parts would arrive... I'm eagerly awaiting mixed bags of goodies from Universal Jems, StewMac, and LMI, though I don't think the radiusing machine at LMI is fixed yet, so it'll be a while yet...

Greg

[GregP]

Pics will have to wait... been a busy couple days, as I got unexpectedly called in to work. I'll wait 'til it's glued up anyhow.

StewMac order arrived today. I'll have to reshape the Les Paul pickguard a bit, but I suspected as much already. Since it's only a very little amount, I might just work at it with sandpaper.

Went in to Home Hardware... bought the makings for those spool clamps, along with a block plane that does not look like it'll work, so I'll have to return it.

Greg

[GregP]

OK... this'll be a doozie... because lots of the photos are redundant for people who can visualize well.

About a week ago, I went to one of the schools I supply at, which has a wood shop. I figured, industrial-sized table-saw = flawless cut for my neck's scarf joint.

I measured up the angle, and doing something similar to what Martin Koch does in his book, I made a jig for the cut. Basically, I cut 2 boards down to the same width as the neck blank, and made a sandwich, which I hoped would help avoid nasty tearing out at entry and exit points. I then mounted this sandwich to a piece of wood with 1 square side, at the correct angle. The idea is that you use the table saw's guide along the mounting piece, so that your neck angle cut is actually a 'straight' cut in relation to the board.

Well, it didn't take long before I ran into problems. As it turns out, the table saw at the school couldn't be raised any higher than the one I already have at home. It only gave me 3" of cut, and I needed 5". I could have re-mounted the jig on a thinner board (I have tonnes), but I still would have needed 4".

I had to decide whether it was worthwhile to cut the whole shebang somehow, or cut the neck blank down to 3" and end up gluing on 'wings' for the headstock.