Mid Freqs

[daveq]

I play what some people would call "Metal" style music. I like to play Satriani, a little Vai (where possible), Lynch, ... Metal has really morphed over the years so I don't know if those still classify as metal or not.

Anyway, I use a bit of a scoop on my EQ's. Nothing too drastic but it's definitely a scoop shape. I recently built a guitar (the tiger that's in the "in progress" section) that has a EMG-VMC control in it. I originally thought - cool - I'll use that to cut some mid freq's and get a better scoop sound. What I actually found is that I like boosting the mid's with it. It's not really possible to tell exactly which freq's I'm boosting with it but I think I'm somewhere near 1KHz, maybe 2KHz?

The result is a great distortion sound that really screams and sounds nice and crisp. I also noticed that Seymour Duncan's "Live Wire Heavy Metal" has the mid freq's boosted also. I've never tried it or heard it but I see that they are paying special attention to the mids on that pickup.

So, how do the mid freq's relate with a hard metal'ish sound? If I adjust my EQ (in the effects loop) to boost the mids and leave the high and low normal, I get a tin can type sound. It seems that if I do the same at the pickup end of things (before the preamp), it actually sounds pretty damn good.

Is it because my amplifier's preamp has an easier time saturating the signal with the mid's boosted? Sorry for the lengthy message.

[Saber]

It looks like you have just discovered the EQ>dist.>EQ principle. I find that the more distortion I want to use, the more I emphasize the mids before distortion, and then I scoop after distortion. There are articles that touch on this at amptone.com such as this one:

http://www.amptone.com/truesecretofamptone.htm

Some pickups such as the DiMarzio FRED and the Evolution also emphasize the upper mid range frequencies.

[Hardtailed]

Yep, scooping mids sounds good only if done AFTER the distortion stage, that's why that sounds is easier to get on a Mesa (the EQ is post distortion) than on a Marshall.

[Saber]

While the tone stack on a Mesa is post-distortion, the ones with the graphic EQ have the graphic EQ before the distortion (from what I've read anyway) so you end up with both pre and post-distortion EQ on the same amp for extreme flexibility.

Another good link on amptone.com is this one:

http://www.amptone.com/g047.htm

[daveq]

Very good then - thanks for the info. I'm sure glad the VMC has a boost option along with the cut.

I was beginning to wonder if my preferences were changing but I'm glad to know that many others have found this also.

Anything before the distortion is a "No Scoop" zone.

Thanks.

[daveq]

One more question:

This is from Saber's link:

The order of effects/connections:

guitar

eq pedal

Comp/OD/Dist pedals

eq pedal

amp's preamp

amp's tone stack

amp's tube power amp

good power attenuator

amp's guitar speakers

Since I am using a Marshall combo amp, I don't have the ability to get an EQ between the Dist and the preamp, right? Isn't the distortion part of the preamp? I think the best I can do is what I am currently doing:

Guitar (with VMC control)

EQ

Amp input

EQ in effects loop

Power amp

Let me know if I'm missing something that I could be doing better. It's a marshal valvestate amp.

Anyone use those power attenuators mentioned in that article? I have heard of them before but I haven't really looked into it much.

[BLS]

I really like to add mids when i play, give to sound more bite. Alot of people think that cutting the mids sounds good, and i agree in some cases it can sound good, but when you play live your gonna need mids to cut throuhg the mix.

[Saber]

One more question:

This is from Saber's link:

The order of effects/connections:

guitar

eq pedal

Comp/OD/Dist pedals

eq pedal

amp's preamp

amp's tone stack

amp's tube power amp

good power attenuator

amp's guitar speakers

Since I am using a Marshall combo amp, I don't have the ability to get an EQ between the Dist and the preamp, right? Isn't the distortion part of the preamp? I think the best I can do is what I am currently doing:

Guitar (with VMC control)

EQ

Amp input

EQ in effects loop

Power amp

Let me know if I'm missing something that I could be doing better. It's a marshal valvestate amp.

Anyone use those power attenuators mentioned in that article? I have heard of them before but I haven't really looked into it much.

The example in my link just shows all the possible stages in the signal chain including combining pedal and pre-amp distortions, but if your happy with your pre-amp's distortion, your setup shold be fine. And power attenuators are normally for tube power amps because a clipping solidstate power amp sounds too harsh (unless that's what your looking for).

[ansil]

i used to instal mid cut/boost circuits of my own design all through out the 90's while i was in high school and later after i started EE school.

what i found out is what frank zappa said.. 2k or 2.2k is like the soul of a guitar.. makes it speak to you.

and 1-1.5k needs a little dip in it. to make it a little less wooly. now if you want that clapton type soudn where there is massive fat wooly sound like the cream days.. then thats what you need is the 1k. but to get the metal scoop but retain actual quality its best to dial out a little 1k and boost the 2k.

[cr_XD]

maybe this is just a total misunderstanding of effects loops, but here i go: if you place an eq in the effects loop and try to overdrive the power amp, could you be just overdriving the input on the eq, i mean if the eq is made with opamps or whatever, you are overdriving that instead of the valves in the power amp. is this right?

maybe you meant a passive and not a pedal there?

this really interests me, cos i'm planning on building a preamp, and maybe it would be a good idea to have two or more eq in different stages.

[scott from _actual time_]

While the tone stack on a Mesa is post-distortion, the ones with the graphic EQ have the graphic EQ before the distortion (from what I've read anyway) so you end up with both pre and post-distortion EQ on the same amp for extreme flexibility.

sounds like you're talking about the Mesa Mark series amps, with the graphic EQ on the front panel. actually, the tone stack is pre-gain and the graphic is post, but you're absolutely right about the flexibilty from having both. you have to be careful boosting the tone settings on a Mark, especially the Bass which can get farty, but the graphic coming after the gain stages lets you dial in the V-shaped EQ curve for that classic Mesa crunch.

craig anderton is a lone-time proponent of both pre and post-gain EQ, and a few other devices are including it these days, like several of the Rocktron rack preamps.

[Saber]

actually, the tone stack is pre-gain and the graphic is post, but you're absolutely right about the flexibilty from having both.

I just went to see the Mark IV schematic on tubefreak.com and your absolutely right. I was also a bit surprised that the graphic EQ is solid state!

[ansil]

alot of amps have solidstate components and claim to be all tube.

look at the legacy from carvin.. its fx loop goes through some transistors.

unless there is an updated schematic the last time i saw the little vtwin it was also SS circuits in there too.