fryovanni

FWIW, When I am bending sides or bindings. The range of thickness is usually between .065-.090"(thin to thick). There is a WORLD of difference in how hard it is to bend wood that is on the low vs the high end of that range.

+1 to what Mattia said. When your looking for dimensional stability you want to consider width, length, length and thickness. Ideally you would want the grain oriented in such a way that the largest dimension has the grain orientation with the least movement, second has the second least and such. Longtitudinal grain shrinks and expands much less than any other direction. Radial(quarter) usually changes much more, but less than the tangential(flat). With a quartersawn piece of wood, long grain running from the neck to the heal, you achieve this ideal. As an example, Alder average dimensional change per. percentage of increase or decrease in moisture content, per. inch of thickness. Whe the wood starts with a moisture content between 6-14%(dry wood in service). Radial-.00151" Tangential-.00256" Longtitudinal- closer to .0002" Body dimensions of 20"(longest) x 12.5"(widest) x 1.75"(thickest) You could expect these kinds of changes per. percentage of change in moisture content. *With long grain neck to tail, and quartersawn. Length- +/- .0040" Width- +/- .0188" thickness- +/- .0045" *With long grain neck to tail, and flatsawn. Length- +/- .0040" Width- +/- .0320" thickness- +/- .0026" *With long grain side to side, and quartersawn. Length- +/- .0302" Width- +/- .0025" thickness- +/- .0045" *With long grain side to side, and flatsawn. Length- +/- .0512" Width- +/- .0025" thickness- +/- .0026" Since your scale length is going to be effected most directly by the orientation from neck to tail(actually bridge or tailpiece). You would want that as stable as possible. Big variations would lead to tuning and intonation issues. A 3% change could really muck things up with a flatsawn body, long grain running side to side.

What was the thickness of the wood you were bending? That can make a huge difference. Temperature also may have varied(maybe you were getting the timing down on the second set)? Curly wood is a huge variable(quarter or flatsawn, although curly does show best on the quarter). Your dealing with a lot of short grain and runnout(you have it around every single curl, at side thickness). Depending on how strong the angle of the grain, it can be extreamly weak(think of slicing an end off a 4x4(a bit less than 1/8" thick) then glue a couple flatsawn plates spaced about 3/16" apart, it will be very prone to breaking. That is basically what your up against with extra strong curl. The grain is rolling up and down. One Really good idea is to be sure you support the sides with a flexable slat from above as you bend. This helps heat the wood evenly, and spread the pressure so it doesn't focus on the weak points. David Myka had a really nifty slat he showed at the last instrument show here in Portland that had made up for bending binding. Very simple, but a great idea. Rich Edit; Quartersawn wood is prefered for bending sides, because you avoid possible seperation with flatsawn wood. I have bent flatsawn wood(quilted figure), and never really had any issues with seperation, but it is a consideration.

I posted this up over at the OLF, but thought I would add it to this thread also. I took some pictures as examples of how a couple of my different blades perform. It seemed like there were a lot of posts asking what blade was best, or why some blades were giving people problems. This is a woodslicer. Made one cut on an 8" Honduran Rosewood back(22" long). I cleaned the blade, and made a second cut on the same billet. Picture I cleaned it again, and this time sliced a 10" Sapele Billet(24" long), This is the result. picture I had about enough cleaning so I switch over to a Woodmaster. This is a pic of the Woodmaster(1.3 TPI), Woodslicer(3/4 TPI), and a Trimaster(3 TPI). Note the gullets, and teeth. The Woodslicer is most prone to buildup, Trimaster is next, the Woodslicer is almost immune to buildup. picture This is the Woodmaster after 2 cuts of Honduran RW, 9 cuts of Sapele, 10 cuts of Koa, and 40 cuts of Cocobolo. All back billets. picture When any of the blades clog or build up problems start. The Trimaster and Woodmaster can deal with more buildup without having significant cutting problems because they have a bit wider set, but the Woodslicer gets real touchy with buildup, and is most prone to buildup. Next post I will show some pictures of how I clean a blade. Cleaning blades is a must. Often people confuse dirty clogged blades for dull blades. Peace,Rich CLEANING This is the process I use to clean my blades. It takes about 1-2 minutes. I should note, up plug the Bandsaw, only spin the blade backwards by hand. I used the Woodslicer after taking 1 slice off a Honduran RW billet for these pics. picture First I use a wire brush held against each side of the blade as I spin it backwards to clear most of the gunk from the gullets. If you let the gunk set up or cook on you need to take a blade to each gullet and scrape it clean(painfully time consuming, so try to keep up with the cleaning). picture After brushing. picture Next I scrape the sides with a blade by holding it against the sides and spinning(careful not to grab a tooth) picture After scraping picture Next I use a sanding pad to knock off any bits that might be hanging in there. picture After sanding. Looking pretty good. picture I finish up with Mineral Spirits. picture One more cut of Honduran RW, and lets do it all over again . I have little patience for Woodslicers on Rosewood . picture Peace,Rich As for the cut counts. Trimaster- I used it for some Limba, Figured Maple, Douglas Fir, and Myrtle. About another 100 or so cuts. Approaching 1K cuts (still cutting well) Woodmaster- Cocobolo, Koa, Redwood, Honduran RW, Quilted Sapele, Quilted Maple. About another 200 or so cuts. Approaching 1K cuts (still cutting well) and the Woodslicer jumped in for a few cuts. Woodslicer-Curly Mahogany, little Sapele, and Honuran RW- about 20 cuts, and I was tired of cleaning. 20 cuts (still sharp)

You assume it is for instruments, it may not be. The thing I find oddest about the auction was that the dealer(who is great BTW) had sold equivelant pieces similar in size or greater for high, but no where near that price, and has another billet up this week. He is starting them at $199 which is reasonable(even if the auctions are finishing typically between $350-$1000+) so he is certainly keeping the asking price in line and allowing the market to speak. Either way... That auction was really something. I sure hope that wood doesn't twist or crack too much as it finishes drying(probably has another year to go before it is 12-14%).

If you look at the grain at the other end of this blank. Is the orientation pretty much the same as the end you show in the pic? Is the grain extreamly straight along the length of the blank?(longtitudinal being straight is more significant in terms of dimensional stability). I would not disagree with what is being said, that grain oriented at 45 degrees is less than ideal, but then again it is just that not ideal. MANY times I see responces where the common opinion seems to be, it is not perfect it shouldn't be a big deal. Seems general opinion has become pretty firm on orientation. Given the longtitudinal grain is very straight and true, and the orientation throughout the length of the board is spot on 45 degrees. What would the most extream difference in dimensional change be in relation to the fret plane (assuming a radical increase of say 3% moisture, in service)? Kinda thinking aloud here, but I will go dig up some numbers on average in service dimesnional change. Peace,Rich So average in service dimensional changes per. in given a 1% change in moisture. Radial-.00165" Tangential-.00353" So given perfectly quartersawn wood, and a 1% change in moisture. Max width @ about 2.5"- .004125" Max thickness(thick neck .95" , w/1/4" FB) @.7"- .002471 Same but flawlessly flatsawn. Max @ width-.008825" Max @ thickness-.001155" Long grain is going to be something like .0033" along 24" Assuming long grain is straight on the money. So at 45 degree orientation what would we see?

Todd, I think you swayed me . Peace,Rich

How many coats did you apply, and how much sanding and what grit were you using between coats?

It is pretty normal to adjust your larger strings higher than your smaller strings.

Mattia, You know I didn't even think about post carved scarfed surface. You are right though, you would retain a much larger glued joint after carving if the joint was in the headstock vs under the fretboard. You don't miss much do you

Well, I hope it sounds it great. Just picked up some 8/4 figured cherry to use for body blanks. I'm expecting a tone similar to Mahogany, but brighter. Cherry does seem to be used in acoustic guitars from time to time. I found the following description: http://www.northstarguitars.com/tonewoods.html Cherry is a different tonewood. It is medium density, and is quite strong. It has a 'dark' tone, and a strong fundamental. It is a great wood for a strumming guitar, where it's tones can really be brought out. It has a reddish brown color, which tends to darken with exposure to the air. This darkening stops when the finish is applied. This to us, is an under-utilized tonewood. We will be using this more in the future. It would also be interesting to see how Cherry would sound as a guitar top. --Dave Prunus Serotina(Black Cherry) is not quite as heavy and stiff as Hard Maple, but higher in weight and stiffness than Mahogany. It is great to work with and usually is nice and stable. You can find nice clear straight grain well quartered cuts at a reasonable price. Certainly could be one of the most overlooked woods out there for instrument building. Pay attension to the species though. There are significant differences. Prunus Serotina(Black Cherry) is the one most commonly found, and is great. Prunus pensylvanica (Pin Cherry) is a tree that has a wide range, grows large enough to be milled, but is much weaker and lighter than Black Cherry. It is not what you would find normally in the commercial pipeline, but local mills could likely saw some up and you may run across it, this is one that you would avoid. There are MANY species some of which grow large enough to become lumber. Weight, hardness, and depending on the dimension of the lumber strength(hard to try to flex 12/4 lumber LOL). Use caution when buying, and ask if they know the species. Also what out for the term "wild" because it is used with many species including at times Prunus Serotina(Black Cherry). So someone telling you the tree was wild cherry tells you nothing really about the species.

This auction just ended. A great piece of Maple for sure, not fully dry but nice. The price blows my mind. link to the auction Here are a couple recent ones frome this seller- link link and looks like a fresh billet just went up from the same seller-link This is an awsome wood dealer. Solid descriptions, good wood. I am just blown away at how high a price some people will pay for a piece of quilted Maple(even if it is slicker than snot).

Is there an echo in here? You bet! Maybe I should have said +1 What type of poly are you using?

Yes, I sure hope it can be stored, else I would have a large pile of dust by now . You stop the rotting process at a point or the wood just decays to a soft pile of mush. After the process is stopped it can be stored. Rich

That will set the pitch if you bring it fully up to temp, if you just heat the surface it will possibly rise later. That is also going to overdry the wood, so it will move during the process(shrink and possibly distort), then it will expand as it comes back to equilibrium moisture. You may experience cracking or splitting depending on how dry the wood is before you start the process. Sealing the body up with shellac is a good idea also, but wait until it has stabalized otherwise it will slow it equalizing back to normal, and you have resurfaced it to take out any distortion it develops. I have done this with Douglas Fir soundboards, but those are usually 3/16" thick. Rich

I prefer my rasps to microplanes. I have had several microplane rasp/file/plane type handles, and a microplane drum for years now. Everytime I grab one and start using it, I inevatably stop and go to a regular rasp/ hand plane/ spokeshave/ or sanding drum. They have just never done well for me, and I doubt I am using them wrong (they are pretty straight forward). They seem like such a good idea(obviously I bought a few, so they sold me on the idea), but they just never worked out for me .

Could be witness lines, from sanding through coats. What type of poly are you using?

I usually join tops and back, install rosettes and backstrips, get the thickness where I want it, and then just hang them in my shop until I am ready to brace them(which sometimes takes a while at the rate I build, LOL). I get the rim ready, edges radiused and what not and have then waiting in the mold. Then I attach the braces clean up the glue, and let them set up still clamped in the dish, sometimes I leave them overnight(sometimes it is an early morning then work with them in the early evening). I shape the top and back braces, notch the rim for inlet legs, and attach the first to the rim that evening or next day(if your noodling around your only going to be shaping for a couple hours), then the other attaches after the glue has set up on the first. So neither sets around braced for very long, before it is attached. I usually place a towel over my dish and place the back on that while it is waiting on it while the glue to set, no intentional weight or clamping although I think I left a 60-1/2 setting on the bracing one time. I thought about clamping both at the same time using my dishes as cauls, and may try that, but the process is pretty speedy as is, so that may never happen. For linings, I use Spanish Cedar almost exclusively. I love the smell of that stuff There are many woods that are fine to use(mahogany,khaya, basswood, willow, spruce, soft maple and so on.... light, but strong, not prone to splitting, bends well and good stability is nice). Rich

Take a picture of the other end.

There is no advantage per sey in the scarf joint itself, your getting the same glueing surface. The difference is in the orientation of the grain. Option #1 is more as a neck cut from a single piece of wood would be in the nut area. Option #2 offers less runnout exposure at the nut itself (shifts that combination of grain orientation under the fretboard). Personally I don't hesitate to use either option, or even a single piece for a blank with no scarf. I do use volutes, and I like using headstock veneers. I don't really agree with this statement(understood opt. #3 means #2). Rich

GW, Do you do that to try to keep the woods shape if you wait a while before attaching it? I am always leary of blocking one side of a piece of woods exposure to air while exposing the other. As long as you have good humidity control I don't suppose it is going to be a problem. On the subject of moisture content, and timing to attach to the rim... Timing/humidity level/moisture level of the soundboard and bracing during your work up to the point you attach is an interesting subject though. There is a logic to driving the moisture content low while working and up through attaching it to the rim. Idea being the dome will hold its shape better and never be driven flat(or concave) by severe drying, and may add a degree of pre-tension to the soundboard that may make it sound better. Not totally sure how I feel about the level of pre-tension that is desirable, or if overdrying and possibly reducing the radius(maybe 42' instead of 25') would be a reasonable step, or if allowing for average conditions and using say a 25' radius works to the same end in terms of resistance to flattening(less the pre-tension of course). I have watched seasonal changes in the dimensions and have a pretty good grip on that, but optimal tensioning still is a bit of a mystery to me. I would love to hear what you guys think, or how you go about working with your tops during these phases of work. Peace,Rich

Mick, You might want to check the nut clearance, and the fret level on your first few frets . Assuming your action at 12 is about 4/64ths . Adding relief will increase the string clearance at a rate of about .0254mm(one thousandth) for every .0762mm(three thousandths) of relief you add or there abouts with regards to the nut and first fret(if open string buzzing is an issue). Your next fret clearance when fretting at 1 will increase at about .0046mm per. .0254mm (.00018" per. .001") of added relief, and your next fret clearance when fretting 2 will increase at about .0033mm per. .0254mm(.00013" per. .001") of added relief. That next fret clearance increase will continue to reduce as you move up the neck until you actually see a next loss in next fret clearance somewhere around the seventh fret up to about the body. Those are pretty slight next fret clearance differences if you only want to squeeze out an extra .05mm of relief, and plan to reset your 12th fret clearance back to 4/64ths. If your issue is with fret heights then you should identify it. Increasing your action 1/64th will give you a steady next fret clearance increase down the neck of about .0018" (not greatest at 1, diminishing to about 7, and losing clearance through about 14-16). Try raising your action .25mm at the 12th. That will raise your next fret clearance better than 4 times higher than the greatest increase by adding .05mm relief. It would at least tell you if changing strings and forcing more relief is going to have any hope af giving you what you want. I know a lot of people adjust relief to clear up problems, but I think most of what they are doing is not resetting the nut clearance, or dropping the action back where it was(effectively they are raising the strings more than solving an issue with the relief itself.

I have never heard of something that removes scortched wood, other than sanding or scraping. I seem to recall mention of using wood bleach to remove staining after bending(but that was water introduced staining). To add just a bit of what I try to use as a guide for myself while I go through the bracing and such. I will try to describe what I listen for and feel. 1. When I thickness my soundboard. I try to start by thicknessing to .140" (this is just a thickness I have always used to get a feel for individual soundboards). I use a similar thickness because it helps me compair apples to apples. I flex the top to get a feel for its stiffness. I am trying to get a sense of its longtitudinal stiffness, and a sense of how stiff its cross grain is compaired to its longtitudinal. I also tap the board and listen to how it rings. I then sand it taking about .003-.005" per. pass. I want to feel how fast it is losing stiffness, and how its ring changes. At a point there is a real drop in the tone of the tap and the top feels much more flexble(just starts to feel a tiny bit floppy). You have to consider cross grain stiffness, because tops with high cross grain will not loosen up as much, and you can take them too far if you are not careful. I think of the soundboard kinda like a drum head (this is helpful if your a drummer). A thick head is dryer, more condensed sounding, a thin skin is louder, more dynamic, but gets muddy if you work it too hard. You don't want to go too far one way or the other, you want to find the spot that suits you in that range. I want to brace to suit the soundboard, so you need to have a good feel for your soundboard. 2. After I attach my bracing. I start by tapering off all the brace ends closer to dimension(little effect, but gets rid of a bunch of mass). I shape the sides of all the braces (again removes mass, but without removing height you lose little stiffness). Next I bring my main X down to my target height(between 1/2" and 5/8", depending on what I am building to). Next I taper off my upper X legs(it is a gentle taper, and not scalloped). The tranverse has been shaped on its sides, I will develop a mild transition to the ends that have been tapered for inletting (that is it for the tranverse). I work a mild straight taper into my lower X legs(this is not to final height just sets a clean angle for my tuning). I also develop similar mild angles on my tone bars and finger braces(not final height, but sets a nice angled line to the end tapers). you can touch up the sides of all the braces again at that point. That gives me the bulk of the main structural layout. At that point the top still sounds tight when tapped. 3. Next step is to approach the first hint of the top loosening up. I do this first focusing on the lower X legs, closer to the bridge. If I am scalloping I mark my peaks and centers, and remove wood slowely, until I hear the first hint that the top is loosening up. The top will sound like a tight ping when tapped and the bracing is too tight. You will hear the ring start to open up(not a tight ping, the will just start to vibrate longer, pitch hints at dropping) when you are getting close. Now you want to be darn carful how much you remove from the main X legs near the bridge, so lay off that area. Since it has started to loosen you will be able to start hearing changes when shaping your tone bars and finger braces. Before all you would have heard was ping most likely even if you carved all the tone bars and fingers completely away. 4. Now I mark my scallop peaks and centers, or breaking points if I an using tapers. I like to work my way around the tone bars and fingers to get an even ring when tapped at this point(this is just keeping things balanced out and lets me keep a good point of reference). What you want to hear is a nice ring when tapped all over, you want to try to eliminate dead areas(that just thud, you will find you can work these out with small changes). The soundboard should have a pretty tight, but even musical ring at that point. 5. From there on out you will make very small changes. You will want to loosen the top up a bit more to make the ring that you started to develop become more notable(looser), but how much depends on what you are going for. The tone bars and finger braces can be adjusted to suit your preference for highs, mids, and lows. Just keep control over the balanced responce as you tap around, try to avoid making radical changes in one area, without balancing the responce. You won't find many specifics about this in books, because this is all subjective to what you want to achieve. I like to have a goal in mind when I select and thickness my soundboard, and carry the idea through this stage. 6. I try to make sure my back has a bit tighter tap than the top. It is handy to have the back and top in front of you, so you can adjust acordingly. 7. Bear in mind the top and back will tighten up after you attach them to the rim. Adjusting them just a little looser than what you want after they are attached works well, but you can get a feel for this change by attaching your first couple tops and listen to the change, then adjust the bracing a bit in place. You can make small changes to the thickness of the soundboard after the box is closed (some like to thin the outer edges a bit to loosen the top a bit more, tapping and pressing the soundboard can give you a good idea as to how much you are effecting things). Again that is just the way I go about things. It is a good idea to find out how other people go about doing these things. Try it and see what works best for you. There are many methods people use, from deflection to tuning to pitch or using patterns. Peace,Rich

A close comperable and common metric would be an M5-1 (which would have a little over 25 threads per inch and be just slightly over 3/16" around the threads). M5= outside diameter of the threads 1= advances 1mm per. full rotation(25.4 rotations=1") They do make other thread counts, but I think that is the most common. It would seem possible/likely that an Ibanez could use metric parts. Rich

Bracing can be a tricky thing to wrap your head around, but it will make more sense as you go. A couple things that may be helpful. Common dimensions for my main X bracing; 1/2"(medium/mild stiffness) to 5/8"(stiff) tall at the crossing. I use 1/4" wide, I used to also use 5/16" (again main X). I do not scallop above the main X crossing, this is where you need strength, I do taper to the sides, but it is just a straight taper. Upper Transverse I would leave full height(just taper the sides). I usually inlet my bracing above the waist, sometimes the lower main X legs, sometimes I feather them. You want to be sure to feather or inlet one way or the other where parts meet to minimise stress risers. Height increases strength much more than width, so tapering the sides of your braces has little effect on strength, reducing height reduces strength very fast. Look at your lower tone bars. Notice that the scallops form up a kind of oval. This area behind the bridge shapes a lot of the responce (especially mids). When you are working on the scallops, tapering or whatever keep that in mind. Some use different bracing configurations that adjust the stiffness of this area, but the concept is to work with your long grain and cross grain(much lower typically than the long) to control the stiffness in this area. Adjusting the scallops in that area change the responce a little slower when tapping. You will notice a rapid change in the responce of the top when you adjust your scallops (or taper if your doing non scalloped bracing) in the main X near the bridge. Keep that in mind when you go about carving here and there and tap. I try to get my main X adjusted pretty close early. Then I am able to make minor changes to the feather braces, tone bars, and lower X legs. Paying close attension to a balanced tap responce. I am very mindful of how I want my mids when I am carving behind the bridge. I also try to keep in mind how close I am to structural elements of the rim and what not as I work the outer bracing. You also have to remember that the top will stiffen back up a notch or two as soon as it attaches to the rim. So a quick check and possibly small adjustment or two is good after you attach the top to the rim. It is also handy to be able to finsh your top and back the same day so you can compair them before attaching. I hope some of that kinda makes sense. As far as what I listen for when tapping and flexing. I want to feel the top loosen up and go from a tight ping to a nice ringing responce. As soon as it starts to loosen up focus on balancing the responce around the board with very small changes. Your project is looking really nice! Keep up the good work