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mistermikev

questions for the nitro kings...

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so I've done lots of poly, acrylic, etc.  Never nitro.  Never used mohawk toner either.  1 of my current builds I want to sort of do a mary k like finish.  I've bought some mohawk champagne frost toner.  have about 7 million questions

I want to use minwax laquer as I understand it's nitro and is available locally so I don't have to store it at my house. 

1) any potential issues using mohawk toner with minwax laquer?

2) will any filler work?

3) are there issues with putting on laquer after true oil?  I'd like to do the back in to and then the whole guitar in laquer.

4) taping off the binding... with poly you really have to pull tape when it's wet... but as I understand laquer melts new coats into old so... is this an issue?

5) do I need to specifically use a sealer after the grain fill?  can I just use light dustings of laquer, then mohawk toner, then more laquer?

6) anything to know about using alcohol dyes then laquer?

in generally tell me everything you know about laquer!

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ah ha!  this was a trap.  because surely if you responded you'd be in full admission of the fact that you ARE a nitro king.  (also just thought of a new name for my 1 pc band)

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You have a few questions I am not familiar with, but can help on some. So I guess that makes me a nitro jester.

I would either wait for others or do more research on Minwax, my understand is that it is an acrylic lacquer not nitro. I know Mohawk makes (or at least used to) a nitro and so does Deft. Deft is more clear than some other brands and is supposed to not yellow or crack with age. Mine has not over 10 years. Deft is harder than most other nitro, to the point it chips easier than some others. So it has good and bad points.

I have not had trouble with any of the common fillers.

I’m not familiar with lacquer over tru-oil. You could test it, but long term effects won’t be seen for years.

Nitro melts into the previous coat very nicely, so no scuff sanding required between coats. I would still pull the tape while wet, but you have more of a window.

Sanding sealer is a higher solid lacquer, sometimes with an additive to make sanding easier, less corning of the paper. I’ve gone both ways, and will use just lacquer if that’s all I have on hand. The main purpose is to seal up the pores and start building a film faster but easier to sand.

Alcohol dies work great with lacquer. Test on samples for initial color and color build.

Couple more tips, humidity is your enemy. Blushing in nitro sucks and is better to just wait for another day instead of forcing it on a day this is more humid. Use a better quality thinner, it actually makes a difference. Nitro builds a lot slower than poly, you’ll need a lot more coats, be careful of sanding through. Nitro takes a long time to cure before polishing, I go 4 weeks and then thumbnail test. If you have time wait even longer, you’ll have less shrink back the longer you wait.

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15 hours ago, ihocky2 said:

You have a few questions I am not familiar with, but can help on some. So I guess that makes me a nitro jester.

I would either wait for others or do more research on Minwax, my understand is that it is an acrylic lacquer not nitro. I know Mohawk makes (or at least used to) a nitro and so does Deft. Deft is more clear than some other brands and is supposed to not yellow or crack with age. Mine has not over 10 years. Deft is harder than most other nitro, to the point it chips easier than some others. So it has good and bad points.

I have not had trouble with any of the common fillers.

I’m not familiar with lacquer over tru-oil. You could test it, but long term effects won’t be seen for years.

Nitro melts into the previous coat very nicely, so no scuff sanding required between coats. I would still pull the tape while wet, but you have more of a window.

Sanding sealer is a higher solid lacquer, sometimes with an additive to make sanding easier, less corning of the paper. I’ve gone both ways, and will use just lacquer if that’s all I have on hand. The main purpose is to seal up the pores and start building a film faster but easier to sand.

Alcohol dies work great with lacquer. Test on samples for initial color and color build.

Couple more tips, humidity is your enemy. Blushing in nitro sucks and is better to just wait for another day instead of forcing it on a day this is more humid. Use a better quality thinner, it actually makes a difference. Nitro builds a lot slower than poly, you’ll need a lot more coats, be careful of sanding through. Nitro takes a long time to cure before polishing, I go 4 weeks and then thumbnail test. If you have time wait even longer, you’ll have less shrink back the longer you wait.

oh no... you aren't getting off that easy: I hearby declare you "NITRO KING"  (which incidentally is a whole lot better than King Fah... aka Fah King).

afa thinning - I haven't made the leap to spray gun.  Have been watching craigslist for a 40+ gal compressor because I'd also like to get the KING OF ALL SANDERS - THE DA SANDER, but I need to be patient to get a deal.  Also, I'm pretty comfortable at can finish.  I am aware of several of the tricks and am reinforcing my elbows even now (for wet sanding - hehe)

I have read a number of threads at tdpri and a number of others that say no it is NOT nitro.  So... I guess I'm willing try try something else but would like to limit it to something available locally and in aerosol - any suggestions?  is THIS the deft of which you speak? https://www.homedepot.com/p/Deft-1-Aerosol-Gloss-Interior-Clear-Wood-Finish-Lacquer-01013/100204936

afa humidity - I live in az... so unless it rains that day - there is no such thing as humidity (seriously tho... you should see how fast alcohol drys on wood here.  I can't even cover a top and take a picture before it is half evaporated)  I will keep this in mind anyway... and check - today is 25%... can you give me a good number to avoid?

I will read and reread your advice as I go and I see many echoes of what I've read suggesting it is spot on.  Thank you for that Nitro King!  (please change your username to reflect your new title at once)

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I have had problems with acrylic lacquer, and I remember one particularly memorable build that @sdshirtman used deft lacquer and fought it for months and months. It may be the luck of the draw.

I like using Tru-oil to deepen the wood colors and then spray nitro over it. Nitro sticks to it nicely.

SR

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I believe that one at Home Depot is nitro, best way to tell is the label. It should list cellulose nitrate if it is nitro. Remember with rattle cans to only use about 50% of the can, after that you get more solvent and propellant which leads to more orange peal. 

Nitro being harder than poly is actually easier to wet sand. Poly is soft and tears when sanded, nitro is harder and the sand paper cuts, seems counterintuitive.

Spend a little more on the spray gun and you can use a 30 gallon air compressor or maybe less. Look at the mini-HVLP guns, they use low CFM’s. DeVilbiss makes nice ones, I have a Finex 1000 made by Sharpe that I love. A good gun makes a world of difference in the final finish. I started with a cheap one and learned the hard way; but once, cry once.

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21 hours ago, ScottR said:

I have had problems with acrylic lacquer, and I remember one particularly memorable build that @sdshirtman used deft lacquer and fought it for months and months. It may be the luck of the draw.

I like using Tru-oil to deepen the wood colors and then spray nitro over it. Nitro sticks to it nicely.

SR

thank you sir!  I've heard much the sm mixed reviews of def.  In a pinch - anyone know if I could put poly over mohawk toner?

thank you for the confidence on tru oil.  good to know.

6 hours ago, ihocky2 said:

I believe that one at Home Depot is nitro, best way to tell is the label. It should list cellulose nitrate if it is nitro. Remember with rattle cans to only use about 50% of the can, after that you get more solvent and propellant which leads to more orange peal. 

Nitro being harder than poly is actually easier to wet sand. Poly is soft and tears when sanded, nitro is harder and the sand paper cuts, seems counterintuitive.

Spend a little more on the spray gun and you can use a 30 gallon air compressor or maybe less. Look at the mini-HVLP guns, they use low CFM’s. DeVilbiss makes nice ones, I have a Finex 1000 made by Sharpe that I love. A good gun makes a world of difference in the final finish. I started with a cheap one and learned the hard way; but once, cry once.

roger that.  I will def read for that on my next trip to home depot.  I'm fine with orange peel.  I don't mind work and am pretty good at sanding just enough to get through it.  that said if it can be avoided that'd be great so - great tip!

any advice about warming a can of nitro prior to use?  just turn the faucet on hot and fill a bucket and let it sit in it?  any risk of too hot?

afa compressor - I really want something 40 gal or more because even that would be under powered for a disc sander (as I understand it).  I have wanted my own air sander for ages - it's like an electric rasp with a ton of control when you put heavier sandpaper on.  spray gun would be icing for me... but I will keep your recommendation in mind when I get there. 

little ways off anyway because right now my next purchase is going to have to be a portable ac unit if I'm going to build going into the summer... soon enough it will be 115 degrees! 

 

sorry, scott got my last like for the day!  thank you both very much!

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14 hours ago, mistermikev said:

any advice about warming a can of nitro prior to use?  just turn the faucet on hot and fill a bucket and let it sit in it?  any risk of too hot?

That would be a good safe way of doing it. I mix my spraying solution of nitro and thinner in a jar....and warmed that up in front of a space heater  for a few minutes this winter.

SR

14 hours ago, mistermikev said:

In a pinch - anyone know if I could put poly over mohawk toner?

My assumption is you can, but I've never tried it. I've sprayed tints and then Tru-oiled over the top of them. Test on scrap. If you have a problem or just want to be sure it's safe add a layer of shellac between the two layers. It makes a great barrier and pretty much everything sticks to it.

SR

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4 minutes ago, ScottR said:

That would be a good safe way of doing it. I mix my spraying solution of nitro and thinner in a jar....and warmed that up in front of a space heater  for a few minutes this winter.

SR

My assumption is you can, but I've never tried it. I've sprayed tints and then Tru-oiled over the top of them. Test on scrap. If you have a problem or just want to be sure it's safe add a layer of shellac between the two layers. It makes a great barrier and pretty much everything sticks to it.

SR

I dream of a world where I can give likes out like they are going out of style... someday.

Excellent tips, I very much appreciate! 

afa heating... I guess in a cold climate you might have to up your game a bit... I might actually have to cool it here in about 2 months!  runs are a real issue during the summer but man... drying paint sure works well in my garage when it's 110+!

afa to over toner - very good to know.  that will come in handy!

thanks again for the hellp!

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