fanned fret system

[Dr. Jabsco]

Yeah, i think your right. I did some more diggin and that seems about right.

im gong to expirment with it a little later.

thanks

[skibum5545]

The way I see it, you can choose whatever fret you want to be the straight one, and angle out from there. If you want the nut perfectly straight, the upper frets and bridge will be way angled, and if the bridge is straight, the nut and first few frets will be way angled.

[axo151]

if i were you i would keep the nut straight, and angle the bridge. The 25.5 and 24.75 looks a little extreme to me. When you get into angling the nut, and the bridge, and then measuring for frets, it could be very tough to do. Why not use some intermediate scale lengths. Could you do 25 4/16 and 24 9/16? I think that might give you enough 'fan' effect to hear more clarity and distinction as described, but not so much as to make you angle the nut and bridge. well good luck and i cant wait to see how it turns out.

-alex

[truerussian558]

you can angle frets without changing the whole neck, if you angle the bridge and the nut (so the scale stays the same), you would have to angle the frets, but still keep the 25.5" (or w/e you want) scale lenght. and easier to calculate, you would have to angle the fret slots by the same # of degrees as the nut and the bridge

[Tiny Tim]

Hi ,

Here are some directions I copied of another sight, wish I could remember to give the person credit. I layed out a fret board on paper using this method and it looked right. Just to add, I marked the scales on my paper board for my plans fallowing each string path , a 36"B+34" G in my case for a 5 string bass; then connected the the marks. 8th fret was purpendicular. I haven't built this yet but am gathering materials now. ymmv. Tim

Well, here's now I did it -

Start with a flat fretboard blank that is more than 3/4 as long as the longest scale length you want to use. In my case, I started with a blank roughly 29" long, considering that 3/4 of my longest scale length (37") is 27.75". You must taper this board BEFORE cutting the frets or else your scale lengths will not be correct. Be sure to mark the centerline of the fretboard before starting to mark your fret locations.

Use a fret template program (I used WFRET as found in the archive) to print a template of each scale, in this case 34" and 37".

Start by marking the longer of the scale lengths (37") on the bass side of the fingerboard and marking it out. Decide which fret you want to be the perpendicular one (in my case, it was the 6th, but 7th or maybe even 8th might work) and align your treble side template on the fingerboard blank so that the desired fret marks are perpendicular to the centerline. Mark the fret lorations for the treble side.

Using a straightedge, draw lines between the marks that correspond with each other (0 with 0, 1 with 1, etc.). This will give you your fanned pattern.

Carefully cut the slots with a fret saw, using either a straighedge guide or a variable miter gauge of some sort. Be sure that they align just perfectly, or else they will never intonate properly (this is always the case when cutting your own fret slots...).

Raduis the fretboard however you choose... I prefer a compound raduis setup ranging from 9" - 20". First I raduis the entire board to 20", then using graduated sanding blocks I begin working in the compound raduis starting around the 16th fret and working my way back to the nut.

After getting al the raduis sanded in, re-cut the fret slots as needed (most will still be visible, but may not be deep enough... some may have faded almost completely; if necessary, use your templates to re-mark the fret locations).

[Dr. Jabsco]

Hey, thanks for that! its very helpful!

I will most likley use a 35" bass side, and 34" trebel side.

maybe more of a difference, but i dont want the bridge to be too angled.

this bass is only going to have between 19 and 21 frets. and truss rod is at the bridge end of neck.

[ACSpike]

If anyone wants to get a feel for how different scale lengths look together without drawing your own diagrams, please try my multi-scale fretboard design tool :FretFind 2-D. Right now I'm trying to research whether it designs multi-scale or actual fanned fretboards. I just don't know the difference. I wish I could get a copy of the heated discussion at MIMF that I see mentioned everywhere.

[Devon Headen]

Welcome AC Spike and Tiny Tim. Both of you seem to know what you're talking about. I think you'll really enjoy yourselves around here.

[Tiny Tim]

Thanks for the welcome,

I don't know very much other than I have been reading everything I can about multi- scale instruments because I think it is a good concept. I am torn about buying a licence for a patent that may not produce a fretboard with correct intonation or being fallowed by the patent holder to design the fret boards, or so many felt in the discussion at MIMF. There was alot of math, diagrams and such that I didn't understand, but I feel Mr. Novax brought this technology back to life so to speak. Tim

[Kevan]

I meant of your texas tele.

Gotta be more specific, my man.

Here are some shots from a year ago, when we first moved in...and I got bored. :-)

http://www.ibanezregister.com/Gallery/grou...van%20geier.htm

For the newbies, the Tele is the natual wood one with the angled frets.

[lovekraft]

It all seems pretty simple to me - either duplicate all the work Ralph Novak has already done to figure out how the math works, or pay the man his $75.00. You'll probably spend more than that on pickups.

[darren wilson]

Wow... i wouldn't have thought the 3/4" difference between 25.5" and 24.75" would make such a big difference in appearance, but your Texas Tele really illustrates the point, Kevan! Is that an Ibanez neck that's been converted, or is it a Novax custom? I'd love to try one of those.

[Kevan]

Is that an Ibanez neck that's been converted, or is it a Novax custom?

It's an Ibanez neck (GRX) with a fretboard swap.

I'd love to try one of those.

Stop by anytime. :-)

[ACSpike]

I am torn about buying a licence for a patent that may not produce a fretboard with correct intonation or being fallowed by the patent holder to design the fret boards

Tim, could you elaborate on those concerns a bit? I still haven't gotten to see that thread at MIMF, so I don't know exactly what you mean.

I started with some questions about multi-scaled frets stopping the strings in the correct places (is that what you mean by intonation here). That was around '99 and the guys in rec.music.makers.builders assured me that it all works out fine. Earlier this year I finally got around to working out the math myself. I don't think it gets anymore dificult that the y=mx+b stuff I learned in high school unless you start working with compensation for stretching and higher tension in depressed strings. The result of my working out the math was the design tool that I mentioned above. It is coded in PHP and GPLed so if anyone knowledgeable about multi-scaled fretboards wanted to take a look at the code and my math I would much appreciate it. Tim, I'd love to hear about your research too. And if you are worring about doing the math to design a multi-scaled fretboard my tool could be the answer.

(Point me to the thread if I am revisiting something here.) A question came up as I was discussing my tool with a guitarist from Sweden the other day. He noticed that my tool doesn't always create designs in which the frets when extended to infinity converge in a single point. I remember reading something about that in Ralph's patent. Is that a requirement for a Novax design. If so is that the difference between Novax and Multi-scaled fretboards?

[Lex Luthier]

Ralph Novak was awarded U.S. patent 4,852,450 for the innovative Fanned-Fret® design. Novax® is making the Fanned-Fret® system available to luthiers through our licensing program. Our licensing fee is $75.00, US for a single instrument paid in advance of construction. Production runs of 10 instruments or more are licensed at $55.00 per instrument. Instruments built outside of the U.S. do not require licensing unless they are sold in the U.S.

Sweet, I live in Canada.

I have been thinking about doing something like this on my next bass. I actually even though about doing this on a fretless bass.

[Dr. Jabsco]

you know, thats a great idea lex. Fretlesses always have trouble with intonating in my experence, but make sure you have the lines

[Tiny Tim]

StonesCreed,

My concerns are, that per the thread on MIMF,( I'm Paraphrasing) the Novax patent has the frets converge to one point but this produces an instrument with flaws and a multi scale doesn't converge to a single point. So many felt the patent was not the technology that they use to produce their fretboards. Many questions were asked of the rep. from Novax with no answers.

I have just been visiting all the Bass, guitar and instrument building sight like this great one and reading all the post about multi scale instruments nothing more.

I used the"FretFind 2D" before this thread started and it produced a multi scale fretboard layout that looked like my paper try however I only briefly tried it. Tim

[ACSpike]

So that is what that MIMF thread was about. Can't wait to read it when it gets into the library. In the mean time I probably just made a few people roll thier eyes over there by posting basically the same thing to a new thread. Oops.

I'm glad you got a chance to try my site. Please let me know if there is anyway you think I can make it better or more useful. It is so hard to get feedback and it certainly doesn't help that multi-scale and just intonation fretboards are such an exotic topic.

Thanks Tim. Thats exactly the sort of research I've been doing. It looks like there just isn't a definitive resource out there for multi-scale or novax fretboards.

[jefm]

A fretless bass with a fanned "fret" system on it

what a novel concept???

[Ben Gash]

What benefits does this give over the Feiten system which seems to work on a similar principle and is less hassle?

[ACSpike]

I don't know much about the Feiten system but from what I've heard they are completely different.

A fretted string stretches, that makes it slightly longer and tighter. The Feiten system is is meant to compensate for the intonation problems this causes up the neck. He moves the nut a little closer to the bridge and then tunes each string a few cents out of tune. It makes the guitar sound more in tune (pitch).

The multi-scale and novax systems are not compensation. They adjust the lengths of the strings to equalize the tension accross the neck. From what I've been told the tension of a string actually affects the harmonic content of the plucked note. Some feel that this makes the notes sound better (timber).

So they aren't mutually exclusive. You could use both systems and have a guitar the sounds good and plays in tune.

[frank falbo]

So what, then? Does a multi-scale fretboard have different disection points for each of the different frets if carried out to infinity? Rather than converging at a single point as you say?

I know there's a "wiki" on your Fred 2-D site, but could you explain a way you could print the fretboard image to scale? That way I could just print on some adhesive paper (prior to radiusing, right?-your drawing would not be skewed for a radius) stick it to the board, and saw my slots through the paper. Heck with your drawing I could even cut the outside of the board, too.

You have my total admiration for creating that website, by the way. I was going to do a multi scale 8-string, and I don't like where Ralph puts the perpendicular fret. I want it down lower, and I love the idea of no perpendicular fret, rather an "in between".

As far as I can tell, you would only have the same intonation trouble you have in a regular board. I'd rather do one with an Earvana style compensated nut, and/or perhaps a "fretwave-style" fix here and there. To try to implement the feiten program across the multiple scale would be a nightmare without return on the investment.

[ACSpike]

The way my site works right now the fret lines don't converge unless the bridge and nut widths are equal. I'm not sure if that is right, wrong or just different. I'm waiting for an someone who really knows to step forward and tell me. In the mean time I'm learning a whole lot more about multi-scaled instruments concepts and questions here in the forum as well as at MIMF and Talk Bass. There is some good threads out there. I think I might have to write another front end that supports the converging fret concept.

I just revamped my explanation of the perpendicular distance concept (my perpendicular fret replacement) after I got a few user questions. Does it make more sense now?

About printing. I really have no practical experience with any of this stuff. I'm making the page because it is what I would need to design the next few instruments I'm planning and I would hate to re-calculate and re-draw everytime I change a scale a quarter inch. So I haven't really used it and I don't think anyone else has either. (Please tell me if you do.) I was hoping that as people used it I could get some feedback and tips to make it better. That includes printing support.

There are a number of programs that will print SVG and more are adding support all the time. I might have to tweak the SVG format a bit to support certain programs. like I'm pretty sure you can't just open up a FretFind SVG in SodiPodi or Inkscape (free open source SVG editors) and print it yet. OpenOffice or the GIMP might be a possibility. I think we can probably find a program to do it and do it free (which is important on my budget). The problem might be the printer. The bigest printer I have at work will do 11x17 but my last fretboard was 19 inches long. I always have trouble lining things up on multiple pages, especially when it needs to be exact like fret spacings. Send me an email and I'll help you work it out.

No I haven't even thought about radiusing. I'm saving that for FretFind 3-D. I just need to find a mathematical genius to contribute that feature.

Fretwave is another thing on my todo list for FretFind. Bent frets are a great idea for just intonations. I'd love to think of a way to incorporate that maybe just using SVGs cubic splines.

I'm gonna go google for Earvana. I've never heard of that.

[lucky1]

Edited September 19, 2004 by lucky1

[ACSpike]

Thanks for the welcome. I'm not away. I'm just multitasking. =)

I tried printing SVG fretboards after work today using SodiPodi and the GIMP. They print but not quite to scale and only what fits on the first page. There probably is a trick to make it work but it is beyond me right now.

So...

I'm looking for alternatives. Tonight I tried putting together PDF and DXF output for FretFind 2-D. I don't think either are quite right yet (not sure DXF works at all). But please give them a try. You will find the links to download other formats below the PNG image on the results page. Properly scaled printable fretboards are on the way, I hope.