!!METAL MATT!! Posted September 2, 2004 Report Share Posted September 2, 2004 Hey there I have just started my first 7 string fretless neck and I could use some info and helpful hints [THE NECK IS 17MM THICK,THE FRETBORD IS 6MM THICK,THE WOOD IS QUILTED PURPLE HEART AND THE BODY IS HAS A PIECE OF QUILTED MAPLE DOWN THE CENTER WITH QUILTED PURPLE HEART WINGS ] And yes I know it will be heavy but i love the look and sond of it. ''Thanks'' !!METAL MATT!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted September 2, 2004 Report Share Posted September 2, 2004 moved to the proper section Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lex Luthier Posted September 2, 2004 Report Share Posted September 2, 2004 and I could use some info and helpful hints Anything in particular? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
!!METAL MATT!! Posted September 2, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 2, 2004 No not realy but any info on the fretboard and how the fretless system works would be very helpfull!! and some info on angled headstocks and how there mounted would be nice. thanks!! !!METAL MATT!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fehgalloway Posted September 2, 2004 Report Share Posted September 2, 2004 Hi, I'm am by no means an expert, but i thought a fretless neck was the same kind of idea as a violin...you just put your fingers where the fret normally is, in stead of inbetween/next to the fret. I don't know if there's anything technical about it, or any special buiding requirements... A neck angle is used so that the action of the neck is ok (as far as I know, once again, experts, please correct me if i'm wrong). so, because the bridge is usually raised slightly, to have an even space between the strings and the fretboard, the neck has to be on an angle...the higher the bridge, the greater the angle...IE, a TOM bridge is higher than a standard strat, which is why a les paul has a neck angle and a strat doesn't. I think it's also true for carved tops, but i don't really know about that...(you said headstock...i should have read in stead of skim ) An angled headstock makes sure there is enough tension over the nut, otherwise the strings would be a bit lose (i think) that's why fender headstocks have string tees, to put pressure on the strings... BTW - NEWBIE WARNING - read anything i write with caution, as i haven't built a guitar yet and could be talking complete rubbish! Do you have any pictures of your timber, etc...please show.. fi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
!!METAL MATT!! Posted September 2, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 2, 2004 (edited) Hey thanks for the info fehqalloway and Don't worry to much theres no way Iam An expert this is my first neck and Iam the one who needs the help! and I don't have any pics yet but I will soon and there will be alot !!METAL MATT!! Edited September 2, 2004 by !!METAL MATT!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skibum5545 Posted September 2, 2004 Report Share Posted September 2, 2004 I was going to start a new topic, but I figure I should just tack my question on to this one, as it is relevant: How does nut height work on a fretless guitar or bass? More specifically, I was planning on using a zero fret for my bass, but would that throw off the action? I can't exactly have a zero-lack of fret, can I? Anyway, any thoughts are appreciated! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Mailloux Posted September 2, 2004 Report Share Posted September 2, 2004 I'm not sure I understood properly but did you say your neck is made of quilted purpleheart or is that just the body wings? If it is the neck also, I have to warn you that purplheart chips very easily at the corners when you rasp and file it, you have to be very careful when you work around corners. Most importantly, purpleheart is a *bitch* to work with it is very dense, hard wood meaning it will use up your tools faster and it is VERY long to shape things by hand. have a look at my webpage in my signature, I made a 3 piece maple/purpleheart/maple neck, it looks nice but the purpleheart wasn't that nice to work with. I still have file scatches on the purpleheart bits behind the neck and I KNOW i'm going to have to sand this for quite a while (I got no electric sanders!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
!!METAL MATT!! Posted September 2, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 2, 2004 I have to warn you that purplheart chips very easily Iam not too worried Ive been building with it since the day I started and its become my signature wood allmost all my work has some purplheart on or in it. I have found that with the right tools purpleheart works very well for me. I work in a friends shop [interior oakworks] and I have access to all the tools I need to work with harder woods. thanks for the heads up! !!METAL MATT!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soapbarstrat Posted September 2, 2004 Report Share Posted September 2, 2004 I was going to start a new topic, but I figure I should just tack my question on to this one, as it is relevant: How does nut height work on a fretless guitar or bass? More specifically, I was planning on using a zero fret for my bass, but would that throw off the action? I can't exactly have a zero-lack of fret, can I? Anyway, any thoughts are appreciated! On a fret-less neck, the actual fret-board surface is the same as the tops of the frets on a fretted neck. So a "zero fret" is an odd one in that situation. Your looking at a fret height of .005" to .015" for the "zero fret". That would take some experimenting. You might have to forget about any typical fret-wire and go with " bar fret" material (tang and crown are the same width), or if you'd want it wider, you could go with nickel-silver bar stock or brass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asm Posted September 7, 2004 Report Share Posted September 7, 2004 also, do you even know what one sounds like? by the name "metal matt" i would guess you like metal. and all the fretless stuff ive heard doesnt sound anything like it. fretless is also extremely hard to play and is made for more of individual notes rather than chords. just something to think about... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluespresence Posted September 8, 2004 Report Share Posted September 8, 2004 soapbarstrat Posted on Sep 2 2004, 01:48 PM  QUOTE (skibum5545 @ Sep 1 2004, 10:07 PM) I was going to start a new topic, but I figure I should just tack my question on to this one, as it is relevant: How does nut height work on a fretless guitar or bass? More specifically, I was planning on using a zero fret for my bass, but would that throw off the action? I can't exactly have a zero-lack of fret, can I? Anyway, any thoughts are appreciated! On a fret-less neck, the actual fret-board surface is the same as the tops of the frets on a fretted neck. So a "zero fret" is an odd one in that situation. Your looking at a fret height of .005" to .015" for the "zero fret". That would take some experimenting. You might have to forget about any typical fret-wire and go with " bar fret" material (tang and crown are the same width), or if you'd want it wider, you could go with nickel-silver bar stock or brass. I have a '71 Bartell Fretless bass with a zero fret and it is a standard fret. From a visual check (I didn't measure) I'd say it's about the height you stated (.005 - .015). The action on the bass is super low but just high enough that it doesn't "fret out" until the very end of the fretboard - as it should. BTW this is not a "standard" bolt on neck. It is more of a lever system that actually has a portion of the neck fitted into a rout inside the body all the way back behind the bridge pickup. There is an adjustment screw behind the pickup that pivots the neck angle so you can get the action adjusted. It is by far one of the most ingenious designs I have ever seen on a guitar/bass. Think of it as a cantilever where the fulcrum is the point where the neck meets the body. Very cool! It also allow for very fine tuning of the action with one screw adjusting ALL of the strings at once. The only drawback I can see is that it appears to be a weak system....but what the heck do I know.....the bass is 33+ years old and the neck joint is in perfect shape!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluespresence Posted September 8, 2004 Report Share Posted September 8, 2004 Here's a pic to better describe what I was trying to say before: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skibum5545 Posted September 8, 2004 Report Share Posted September 8, 2004 I have a '71 Bartell Fretless bass with a zero fret and it is a standard fret. From a visual check (I didn't measure) I'd say it's about the height you stated (.005 - .015). According to Stewmac, the smallest fret height they have is .090, which is much higher than the stated action on your bass. What gives? Also, will I have to raise the fretboard in relation to the bridge to make up for the lack of frets? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluespresence Posted September 8, 2004 Report Share Posted September 8, 2004 skibum5545 Posted on Sep 7 2004, 08:20 PM  QUOTE I have a '71 Bartell Fretless bass with a zero fret and it is a standard fret. From a visual check (I didn't measure) I'd say it's about the height you stated (.005 - .015). According to Stewmac, the smallest fret height they have is .090, which is much higher than the stated action on your bass. What gives? Also, will I have to raise the fretboard in relation to the bridge to make up for the lack of frets? Yeah, I should have measured before I typed.......I did now. It's .05 high and .10 wide. I was thinking one too many zeros...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassman Posted September 8, 2004 Report Share Posted September 8, 2004 absolutely no neck angle is required for fretless bass.......... if you were to build two identical basses- one with frets and one without........ besides frets/no frets they coud be built exactly the same- except on the fretless you add the height that you lose by not having frets (if your frets are say .01" tall then you add .01" of thickness or height to the fretless fingerboard) this is how some manufacture do it so that they can use the same specs for both fretted and fretless basses- the nuts and bridges can be used interchageably if it is done this way..... when it comes to a zero fret for a fretless- keep in mind that you either need to still have a nut or sorts just to get your strng spcaing dead on (unless you think you can perfectly situate the tuners and always have the strings come off of them at the perfect position). use a short fret as a zero fret and take off as much as need to get the deisred action- you will probably find that you will nearly sand it down to nothing to get the desired height at that end of the neck... so the smallest wire available will probably be ideal... and yes you will have to periodically replace the zero fret on a fretless- so why not use a brass nut isntead? Peace, RYan sorry for the all the typos my keyboard cursor randomly jumps lines and planes to make for very tricky typing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluespresence Posted September 9, 2004 Report Share Posted September 9, 2004 absolutely no neck angle is required for fretless bass You're right Ryan, and after reading my posts over I can see where there may be some confusion on this. I was using the words "neck angle" which could be confused with say a Les Paul where an obvious angle is used. On my fretless the action is set by tuning the angle of the neck (as shown in pic) a SLIGHT amount. There is no up/down adjustment on the bridge as it has the old "bullet" style saddles. you can adjust front to back for intonation but the action height can only be adjusted by raising or lowering the pitch (I didn't use angle that time ) of the neck as described. Thanks for helping clear that up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
!!METAL MATT!! Posted September 10, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 10, 2004 (edited) Hey there thanks for the info. I was woundering if any one had any close up pics of there fretless neck it might just help to give me an idea of what I should do with my fret board. THANKS !!METAL MATT!! Edited September 10, 2004 by !!METAL MATT!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skibum5545 Posted September 11, 2004 Report Share Posted September 11, 2004 Actually That -would- be incredibly useful for me too. I'd like pics of: nut area with and without strings in fretboard height above body (+ measurement, bridge type) if possible, pic of nut/ 1st fret area with 2nd or 3rd fret fretted, just to get a feel for the action Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluespresence Posted September 11, 2004 Report Share Posted September 11, 2004 I'm on a break from mowing lawn right now but I can get some links up for you later today. Back to the mower Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluespresence Posted September 11, 2004 Report Share Posted September 11, 2004 Here's the links: Fretless Nut/Zero Fret Side View Fretless Nut/Zero Fret Front View Hope that helps! EDIT: BTW the nut is a string thru where the strings run through holes in the nut and it is set down below the zero fret to keep the strings down on the zero fret. The zero fret has some grooves in it but that is slight and is from 30+ years of wear. Sorry about the blurry side view but my camera wouldn't auto-focus on the edge of the fretboard. I took 7 pics and this one is the least blurry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skibum5545 Posted September 11, 2004 Report Share Posted September 11, 2004 Thanks for the pics; that reverse nut idea ain't a bad one! I might have to try it! So the consensus is, in order to get proper fretless action, you need either a correctly filed nut or a smallest fret size zero fret, filed down to correct action, and a spacer nut? Maybe a nickel nut wasn't such a bad idea after all.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluespresence Posted September 11, 2004 Report Share Posted September 11, 2004 That's it.....you want it as low as possible (at least I do) so it is just above the point of "fretting out" or in other words going dead when you press the string against the board. Mine is set so it frets out with my finger just past the last fret mark which I can't reach anyway when I play. Some like a higher action but I tweak all of my basses (fretted or fretless) so it is as low as possible without buzz or going dead. It all depends on how you play. On the fretless you'll find your fingers won't come up off the board much and you'll play with "greasy fingers" (never lifting and always sliding to the next note) most of the time so a low action is desirable. It puts a lot less stress on your finger joints and hand muscles and allows you to relax and play. This may not concern you but I have a bit of arthritis in my fingers (and unfortunately other parts too) and this is a big issue for me. Re the reverse nut - I have 2 other guitars (6 strings) here with a zero fret and they don't have a reverse nut. I imagine the heavier bass strings might be the reason for it on the bass, but I don't know for sure. I actually never noticed it before now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
!!METAL MATT!! Posted September 15, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 15, 2004 (edited) also, do you even know what one sounds like? by the name "metal matt" i would guess you like metal. and all the fretless stuff ive heard doesnt sound anything like it. thanks for the tip asm you may be right Hey thanks for all the pics and help I have alot to think about !!METAL MATT!! Edited September 15, 2004 by !!METAL MATT!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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