angry_jeremy Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 How can people build and sell pretty much direct copies of certain guitars (LP's, strats, etc)? Are we just small fish not worth going after? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlGeeEater Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 I think the headstocks are the only copywritten part of a guitar. Say someone tried to sell a strat with a VH striped paint job, and VH found out, he could sue the seller because its copywritten. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ACSpike Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 Copywritten or trademarked? Gibson is going after PRS. Check out the PRS site. And This is what the guitar looks like. and LP styled body but not headstock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlGeeEater Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 Yea i think its kinda dumb they can put copywrights on a piece of routed out wood. I mean how are other companys supposed to compete? I think of it as a monopoly... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MzI Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 the main companies that get sued are the bigger companies like esp and prs, mainly cuz they are making large profits off of gibson, smaller companies that make copy guitars for the most part wont get sued, such as ken lawerence making his explorer for james hetfield, to get away with not getting sued by large companies there has to be a 15% change in the design, this only applies to US patents, therefore ESP can make explorers in japan still and sell them outside of the US etc etc MzI Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpa Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 (edited) Ibanez was guilty of copying Gibson and Fender designs in their early electric guitar building days. In 1976 Gibson parent company took legal action against Ibanez claiming a trademark infringement over the patented LP headstock. Everything was settled out of court but that was the beginning of Ibanez original designs. They say that some of those Ibanez guitars in question are worth more to collectors than the Gibson originals, . Regarding what MzI said, its sort of like the early days of computer marketing. IBM figured they had the market cornered when selling all those XT's etc. (I used to own one, ). Japanese companies would rip them apart and then make enough modifications to avoid copyright/patent infringements. Next thing ya know there are a million clones flooding the market. Each time IBM developed a new machine a newer sometimes even better "clone" would hit the market a few months later. Edited October 20, 2004 by Southpa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveq Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 I seem to remember Scott R. getting a nasty letter telling them (I guess the company Scott works for?) that they could not build any EVH look-alike guitars. I don't think that was a big money issue - just an aggressive law firm. I also think that you run into trouble if you don't take action against people that you know are copying your protected products. I could be wrong but I think if someone can prove that you haven't taken action to protect your (copywright or is it trademark?) then you lose footing in the legal battle. I hope someone here can answer this better and with more facts than I have. Does anyone know what I'm thinking of here? Maybe I'm confusing this with patents? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angry_jeremy Posted October 20, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 I'm not really talking about the bigger guys (Ibanez, Gibson vs. PRS, etc.), I'm mainly talking about Joe Guitar Builder that builds an accurate Strat copy cause his/her client wants a Strat but with some options not available with the conventional Strats. For example, if I get someone who wants me to build them a Strat that feels like their other Strats but with some custom wierd paint job. Except for the paint, it's a 100% Strat rip off. What's to stop Fender from nailing me? In all likelihood they're not gonna care because I'm not mass producing them for a major chunk of their market share. Is their anything that gives me permission to copy their design? There's probably some clause about making them for yourself (ie. not profit) vs. making them for a living. Legal stuff makes my head spin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RGGR Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 You really think that Gibson or Fender are coming after the small fish building one of two copies in there own backyard??? Don't think so. Being PRS or another factory builder.... you might be in trouble. (But I don't see why you want to build an exact copy of a Gibson LP or Fender Strat to begin with.....) In China you have complete factories stamping out nothing than copied products. From Jeep Grand Cherokees, to North Face coats, etc... That's called playing catch up with the rest of the world and making up your own economic rules. Copy rights???? Never heard of them. I may not agree with that......but that's simply a fact of life. And if Gibson came knocking on my door, I would point out to them, that my LP had set neck thru design...AANJ with better higher fret access, 24 frest, is build from better tone wood......is using better pickups, different headstock and has a more comfortable neck profile. I wouldn't be too worried getting a call from Gibson. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angry_jeremy Posted October 20, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 Well, I'm not too woried about the big guns knocking on my door, mafia style. "Mr. Burrill, may we have a word with you?" *punch in the stomach* I suppose you would have to plead your case, just like PRS is right now. If that fails, what can they do? Tell you to stop? Good gravy, anything but that!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorecki Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 Copywritten or trademarked? Gibson is going after PRS. Check out the PRS site. And This is what the guitar looks like. and LP styled body but not headstock. What's interesting is Mr Smiths first scratch build was a LP Jr clone, then he got a commission to build a double cut for Santana which began the PRS (business/guitar) we know today. Seems like it would be in Gibson/Fender best interest to back off because crap like this makes me not even consider buying their product. I completely understand if you have a product that is totally unique, but come on, these things have been being cloned for 30 years now and the PRS Tremonti for almost 5 years...why now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dugz Ink Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 If you take a Strat, trace out ALL of the pieces, then build your own copies, and forge the Fender logo, you would be in deep trouble... regardless of how small you are. However, if your guitars just LOOKS like Strats, without being exact (dimensional) duplicates, then I don't see how they could say anything. Just tweak the body shape a little, give the headstock a slightly different curve, and you technically have a "new" guitar... especially if the pots/pickups are different than anything Fender offers. But that's just my opinion, which is based on limited reading of the laws. D~s Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorecki Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 Ya, but that's not the case here, PRS Tremonti is different enough you would think it wouldn't be a problem but it appears it is a problem! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dugz Ink Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 ...PRS Tremonti is different enough you would think it wouldn't be a problem ... Understood, but in that case we're talking about a rival company. That's when lawyers try to blur the lines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G_urr_A Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 I can't see what Gibson could possibly say about the Tremonti. It's a very different carve. I mean, I can't see Ford going after Volvo because they've got rear view mirrors sticking out from the sides of the cars. Or because they too have four wheels. As far as I can see, that's about the length to which the similarities between a Gibson LP and a PRS Tremonti go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Rosenberger Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 I can't see what Gibson could possibly say about the Tremonti. It's a very different carve.... As far as I can see, that's about the length to which the similarities between a Gibson LP and a PRS Tremonti go. The carve and shape may be different, but to a Non Musician/guitarist Juror they can argue the similarities and that's what happened. Similarities Single cutaway body Carved top 3 + 3 Tuners I'm of no opinion in that case just trying to show the other side of the coin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erikbojerik Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 You really think that Gibson or Fender are coming after the small fish building one of two copies in there own backyard??? Don't think so. Think again. Fender routinely shuts down eBay auctions of knock-off Fender waterslide decals (trademark). I'm surprised Gibson isn't doing it as well. If you're a big company and have lawyers on staff who are being paid salary regardless, those lawyers will look to make themselves valuable as much as the next employee. But decal forgery is an easy thing to catch; they do it because they can and it is cost-effective (an email from a lawyer is normally all it takes). It costs the companies too much to spec out every Strat/LP guitar body/headstock copy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javacody Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 There was no Jury, there was only a Judge, and PRS lost the case. Consider that the case was tried in Tennesee and the Judge was apparently already friendly to certain Gibson execs (from what I've read on the internet, you know how that goes). PRS will probably win in the end ( I hope) as the singlecut is significantly different from a Les Paul. Currently, Fender has an application underway to trademark the Strat and Tele body shapes. Several smaller builders have already been shut down (Lentz being one of them). It's even ok to buy a liscensed strat body and neck, but you cannot sell them put together. How screwed up is that? http://www.lentzguitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=166&page=1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorecki Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 It's even ok to buy a liscensed strat body and neck, but you cannot sell them put together. How screwed up is that? VERY! Man, this is starting to look as bad as government. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
www Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 This made me wonder about Warmoth and USA custom guitars. Warmoth builds a lot of different style guitars while USACG sell Fender knockoff's. Why can they copy others guitar styles and not get into trouble??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RGGR Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 (edited) Well, I'm not too woried about the big guns knocking on my door, mafia style. "Mr. Burrill, may we have a word with you? I wouldn't be too worried. I would tell 'm to start running. Edited October 20, 2004 by RGGR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan O' Zakk Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 One of the main Gibson/PRS lawsuits was over neck joints. PRS was using a proprietary process/concept developed by Gibson. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovekraft Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 It's even ok to buy a liscensed strat body and neck, but you cannot sell them put together. How screwed up is that? So you can't buy a licensed Fender neck and a licensed Fender body and sell a guitar made from them? How does that work? Didn't you pay the license fee when you bought the licensed parts? I definitely need to know more about this, before I get myself into trouble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angry_jeremy Posted October 20, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 Sick 'em boy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RGGR Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 So you can't buy a licensed Fender neck and a licensed Fender body and sell a guitar made from them? How does that work? Didn't you pay the license fee when you bought the licensed parts? I definitely need to know more about this, before I get myself into trouble. You can spend hours reading lawyer mumbo jumbo.......but basically it all comes down to how much of a competition you are to Fender, Gibson....or whatever. And if you are passing your product as one of theirs. The chance of them coming after a small builder is pretty slim. As small builder your guitar will always be more expensive than their factory built one. Remember Fender builds their MIM strats for $80. Not by any chance any Joe Blow beat that price. The whole issue comes down to what you are trying to pull. There have been cases of people building "Fenders" and selling them as Fenders. That's all out fraud. So if you buy a Fender licensed body and neck and put your own logo on the headstock, you're fine. But it's a different matter if you put an 'real' Fender decal on the headstock and start selling them as the real deal. (That's why Fender cracks down so hard on these decal people. A Fender type guitar without the proper Fender decal is no tread to them.) Selling a Fender licensed body, neck and proper decal as a Fender copy, or relic is okay again. See the difference!!! It's all a matter if the public can make the distinction. Of course Fender will say you used their logo without their permission.....but I wouldn't worry about that. On Namm trade shows you see the Fender people admire the nice relic examples out there. No problem at all. Based on the success of these types of guitars Fender has done their own versions (See the SRV strat relic.) The PRS, Gibson thing is more a battle between two giants. PRS is making some serious good quality guitars that are a direct thread to the Gibson guitars. That's why Gibson will try everything possible to prevent PRS selling a Gibson type guitar. Personally I think they don't stand a chance. The Tremonti is a completely different animal to the LP. Because the rights on the LP body shape have expired already, Gibson will try to get PRS on the type of neck joint construction. Just work for lawyers. I think Gibson should be little more creative and develop a better LP that will blow away the PRS. Instead they use the same old design and construction as 50 years ago. Excuse me. Never heard of innovation????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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