Bad Wood Here Is An Example

[bigdguitars]

just to show you guys what I mean about wood being out there that is not ready for luthier use:

Check this auction out:ebay auction

Quote from auction:

It has been air dried to 8% - 12% moisture content and surfaced on both sides. Well which one is it? 12% is considered green wood, and 8% is somewhat dry, but luthier wood should be at 5%. That its anything else is unstable and will move. So if you search luthier on ebay and come across wood, make sure that its been air dried for at least two years or kiln dried to 5%. Don't be led into thinking that this is ready for use on a guitar.

-Derek

[Scott Rosenberger]

I hear ya D

I still buy a good amount of wood from ebay, but I'm always planning ahead and I'm prepared to let it dry more. I mean regardless of where you get your wood (even Gilmer) IMO You should still leave it alone for at least a month just because of the different climates

[MikeB]

yeah, im all for leaving wood for a month before using for the above reasons

[bigdguitars]

yea I am finding good stuff out there still just letting it dry for 6 months...

For example if you bought this peice you would have to wait around 4 months to get it to a workable state... The thicker the piece the longer you wait....

[rhoads56]

ACTUALLY, 12% is considered dry, and is called "furniture grade". 8-12% is a standard range of dryness, when the timber fluctuates because of the relative humidity.

You will have trouble finding 5% timber, and it will most definately have to be kiln dried to get to that moisture content. Unless you live in texas, or some other desert, because the timber cant dry out more than the relative humidity.

Drying timber is difficult. To get it a bit drier is a massive amount of work. The difference between 5% and 8% is negligable, but a LOT more time in a kiln.

[skibum5545]

Rhoads-- while this is all true, the wood was not advertised as "furniture grade". It was advertised as luthier wood, which I believe BigD is saying is supposed to be 5-6% moisture content. It's not that it's bad wood, it's that it's not luthier wood, and shouldn't be called such.

[rhoads56]

I think you'll find the majority of "luthier wood", eg: woods used for guitars, is at 12%, or there abouts. You think any of the early fenders (or any age) were dried to 5%?? Ibanez's??

[MzI]

One of the guitars I built last summer, I bought the wood at my local lumber yard (they have a huge hardwood department), and just outta curosity I asked about the levels in the wood and they said normally like 10-15% I think, so I said whatever, and then had them check the actual piece I was gonna buy and it was actually like 4% which was great because it was a nice heavy piece of mahogany

MzI

[bigdguitars]

Go build a guitar out of 12% wood, then put a coat of paint on it. in three months tell me if it cracks...

I can show you a gibson SG that I have that where the wood was not dried to a stable moisture, its has cracks all over it.

Try to make an acoustic with piece of wood that is at 12% humidity.

[MzI]

yea it would prolly make a huge mess and a big waste of time, the stuff I have now I bought back in october, I havent checked the levels but im prolly not gonna start building til next week or so and thats only necks im gonna work on while im home, Ill prolly start bodies at the end of december so everything should be good and dry

MzI

[feylya]

From the auction:

Our craft wood does not reach the quality standards that we set for tonewood.

So they are misguiding people somewhat but not as much. Or something...

[Drak]

I agree with Perry, I'd bet the -vast- majority of wood I've used over the years was more than 5-6%, and my guitars are just fine.

OK, everyone with one of those moisture content meters check in with an 'aye aye', let's see who can really talk about this subject with some authority, I know I can't.

If you don't have one and use it on a regular basis, your comments are all completely 100% speculative, as mine are, which means you just have an opinion, and we all know what that's worth.

[bigdguitars]

I have one at home and we use one at the wood shop I work at.

At our shop will not plain anything that this over 10% humidity because it will crack as it dries.

Same thing with resawing. Obvisouly someone has to take this piece and still make it workable. around 8% you are getting into that iffy area. I have made guitars in that 6-7% and have not had a problem... A anything higher than that is prone to moving.

Think of it this way. no one takes an acoustic guitar and leaves it outside over night, why? cause the wood will move and ruin the guitar.

My point is that you cannot sell someone a billet call it stable luthier wood at 8-12% and then expect to use it once you get it. For those who have not resawed or are just getting into can be really disappointed once they get thier priced piece of wood, saw it in half and then bam a couple of days later it looks like a board from a pier.

[rhoads56]

Hmm, bidD, youve made what, four guitars??? One cracked??

EVERY PIECE OF FURNITURE I EVER MADE IN MY 12 YEARS AS A PROFESSIONAL CABINETMAKER, was made with timber that had a moisture content of 10-14%.

NOT one single piece even came back from "lacquer cracking", and i use the same lacquers on my guitars.

What proffessional experience do you have, and why did you start this rant? All previous rants have been exposed as a crack pot going off, with some hidden adjenda eg: bad wood, because you were selling woods, PRS, because you simply dont like them, etc etc.

Furthermore, sub $1000 moisture meters are unreliable at best, totally wrong at worst. They measure the outer skin, and not the internal moisture content. What are you using to measure your moisture content at the skin, rather than the possible 5-8% higher internal measurement??????

[rhoads56]

Think of it this way. no one takes an acoustic guitar and leaves it outside over night, why? cause the wood will move and ruin the guitar.

Think of it this way, why are humidifiers recommended by EVERY guitar company, EVERY repairer, etc etc..... because they restore and maintain a decent amount of moisture within a guitars woods. Its the drying out, not swelling from moisture, that cracks and splits accoustics.

[bigdguitars]

perry you sure know it all...

And you are full of it. no respectable lumber store would ever ever sell lumber thats at 14% humidity... Unless you are storing it outside...

When I worked here http://www.owlhardwood.com/ I had the chance to talk to craftsman and use different lumber, and no its not just 4 guitars. watch the personal attacks here perry if you have something personal take it to my email. You will not win this one I can point to tons and tons of data on this.

Its called ethics. Cannot call wood luthier wood when its not even stable to work with, thats the point. Also someone else in my last thread to explain what good wood and bad wood should be. Call it whatever you want changes in humidity and temp, will cause wood to move its hand in hand... Would you cut down a tree and use it right away... well after six months of air drying the wood would still not be stable and thats what most people on ebay are selling.

WELL HERE IT IS...

The most important aspect in stabilizing wood flooring is to reduce the cyclic changes in moisture content from a low in winter through a high in summer by humidifying in the winter and dehumidifying in the summer. This can be accomplished by engineering a proper HVAC system.

   Example: An oak floor 70 deg. F. @ 30% Rel. Humidity = 6.0%M.C. with a change to 75 deg. F. @ 75% Rel. Humidity = 14.1%M.C. A change of 8% in Moisture Content (M.C.) will cause a 2 ¼" oak board to change 3/64 inch or a 3 ¼" width oak 1/16 inch in each piece.

   If a wood floor is tight in the summer months and the above change in moisture content takes place you can expect cracks of 1/16" in each board where it is joined to the other. Stabilizing the moisture content in a given structure to within 3% change should not be noticeable to the average person.

   It takes approximately 30 days for major changes in environmental humidity levels to show visible changes in finished flooring.

This can be applied to anything that is wood: Guitars, furniture or floors

[bigdguitars]

here is a quote:

Hi guys,

maybe it would be a nice idea to make "wood buyers guide" for the forum for ppl like me who cant tell the difference between 5A and hole in the ground. This would be a handy thing to help ppl decide whether they want 5A or maybe go with a nice looking 3A.

[LGM Guitars]

all I have to say is, if you're using wood that is at 12% and your finish is cracking, it has nothing to do with the humidity of the wood, you have problems with your finish plain and simple. Laquers are bad for humidty, but even at 12% you shouldn't be having problems. Up here in this wonderful land of trees, water, and rain and snow, unless you have a kiln, you will never get less than 9 to 10% humidity, and even if you have a kiln, as soon as you use the wood, it's back to atmospheric humidity anyway.

I had to ship a guitar to england by BOAT. The urethane finish was as perfect when it arrived as when it left. the worst thing I've ever seen in a finish from to much humidity is some sinking when it does dry out a bit more, but never have I gotten a crack.

If your finish is cracking and you're using a solvent based finish, you're getting water in your airlines, you have contaminated product, or something else, but the tiny amount a piece of wood will move from the difference at 12% to 6% should never make your finish crack.

I can get my wood to about 8% without a problem, I have never had a finish sink, or crack or have stability issues, and I build acoustic and electric guitars, 12% is workable still without any real hassles.

Outside of that, I'm not saying a word, I think this debate is funny LOL

[bigdguitars]

Here is my last reply, having planed 100,000s of board feet of 50 different wood species, I will give you a scenario of why I posted this specific thread.

Johnny buys a 8/4 13 inchwide piece of lets say mahogany... He decides that he want to take it down to 7/4. Hey thats only a 1/4 inch, not so bad right? Well the wood is at 12% humidity. He takes off that 1/4, and leaves it for the weekend. He comes in Monday evening for work, and OH MY gosh my 50 dollar piece of wood is warped and cracked. Johnny wonders how did this ever happen?

The wood was not stable at 12% humidity. Planing down the 1/4 of wood opened the wood and allowed moisture and temprature to effect the wood. Had johnny left the wood to get to a 5-7% humidity level he probably would not have had this problem. So now johnny has spent 50 bucks and has a expensive piece of firewood. Or what if johnny had a great saturday and got all the work done and even paints his guitar? A few months later as the guitar is still drying he notices that his paint has ruffles and cracks on it... Why he wonders? because the wood was not properly dried.

This educational thread has been brought to you by someone who has worked with kiln and air dried lumber. Its always best to make sure you know what you are getting. In this case its best to know what your lumber is at, before you start to work with it.