Ca Vs Bondo For Alder Body Prep / Grain Filler ...

[Bmachine]

Based on what I read after a search I am thinking of using either a thin layer of medium CA glue (as Drak recomends) from Rockler or a thin layer of Bondo(as Maiden recomends) before applying the primer.

There are lots of posts on either one but I haven't found a discussion of one vs the other.

Any advantages/inconvenients of using one vs the other? This will be for a solid color so transaprency is not an issue. On this project I will have an auto body shop spray the color and clear.

Thank you very much for any input.

[Cloud]

Well I have applied bondo to wood and then primered over it and it works very well atleast in my case. The bondo has great adheres great to wood grain from my experience.

[Drak]

For Alder, you don't need NUTHIN!

Just apply your finish straight onto it.

IF you were going to use something, then I would recommend the CA, since Alder pores are sooooo small, Bondo would be inneffective.

Only use CA if you have a respirator, you'll figure out why about 10 seconds after you splooge it on the body and then you can't even get near it, and the CA is drying, and you're freaking out...

I wouldn't use anything at all tho, keep it simple and don't use anything.

[javacody]

Drak is right. Alder is usually pretty tight grained stuff. No filler needed.

[Bmachine]

Thanks guys!

However, I did test this a couple of weeks ago and I find that you will definitely see the grain in alder if you don't seal it adequately. Now, maybe my sanding wasn't good enough but I put 2 coats of sanding sealer and after sanding that, I could still see the grain through the color coat. Very small, mind you, but you can definitely make the very fine lines of the wood.

Drak, I was at Rockler and they have CA in thin, medium and thick (I think...). Which one do you use? And they have these small 2oz bottles How much do you need for a strat type of git?

http://www.rockler.com/ecom7/product_detai...erings_id=10562

Also, going on the flat parts of the body will be easy enough with a credit card or so but along the contours...? Would I "contour" it with my finger inside a rubber glove maybe?

I don't have a respirator but I intend to do it outside. Any prob with that? (I'm in L.A.)

And finally, Drak, you mentioned that Bondo is ineffective in this case because the grain is too thin. Are there other advantages of CA vs Bondo in this case?

Thanks a lot!

Edited November 29, 2004 by Bmachine

[westhemann]

i used 2 part epoxy to seal my alder seven string.

[Drak]

No respirator, no CA.

Doesn't matter if you do it outside, you still need to be right on top of the body while you're spreading it around, and the fumes will not allow you within 5 ft. of it for 5 minutes or so, but those are the 5 very minutes you need to be spreading it around.

You HAVE to have a respirator to CA a body. Goggles too if ya got 'em.

For the sides, I just use my finger raw, it comes off in a day or so, I just start biting it off in little chunks until it's gone, it's no big deal really, but if you want to try a glove, OK by me.

(1) 2 oz. bottle will do several bodies unless you're doing a spalt top, it really goes a long way.

Medium is best if you have to pick only one out of the three. Then thin. I hardly EVER use the thick stuff, mine's been sitting here collecting dust while the other two get used quite often.

Well, to be honest, I would never use Bondo as a grain filler in the first place, and I have never used it for that, although I do use it for dings and dents on occasion, it's great for that, but Bondo is just too thick for me to use on something like Alder. It's like using a torch when you only needed a match, a little overkill for Alder.

Now Ash, or Oak, I could see giving it a tryout, but not Alder. I would guess that by the time you sanded it flat to wood, there would be hardly any Bondo left on the wood anymore.

If you want to use something like Bondo on Alder, than just get the real thing, pore filler, that's exactly what pore filler is for. This is my opinion and I'm not trying to diss the Bondo crowd out there.

What I would do if I were you, I would use the sanding sealer, maybe 3-4 coats, let it settle for 3 weeks, then sand it smooth and flat, and there you go. That's what I would do, or buy a respirator.

______________________

Edited to add since I just read Wes' reply...

Yes, 2-part epoxy just might be the best thing for you if you absolutely want to fill it.

Just be careful, 2-part epoxy, while having no fumes and being consumer-friendly (and cheap...2 syringes @ 3.00/ea. should do it) is sticky and gooey and when I use it, it seems to want to get everywhere, it 'travels' ...maybe it's just me, but yes, 2-part epoxy is definitely an option, much preferred over Bondo for Alder, and pretty easy to use.

[Bmachine]

Thanks Drak and Wes.

Actually I just got a Craftsman Respirator for $16.99 this morning but I thought it was only for dust. But now that I think about it, I vaguely remember its package saying something about some type of fumes. I'll have to go back and check what it says.

I've been using epoxy to fix holes in routing templates and bodies. I never thought of using it as a grain filler until I read about it here the last few days. I use the two syringe stuff from Home Depot. I think it's made by Loctite IIRC. I also feel that it might be a bit too gooey... wouldn't lay very flat. And it's kind of a mess to use... But then again I haven't tried to use it paper thin yet... Any special to know about using it for this purpose?

Thanks again.

P.S. Edited for spelling

Edited November 30, 2004 by Bmachine

[westhemann]

i use it in the big bottles...but if you want to use the syringes that's fine.but don't use the 5 minute stuff....it sets before you get a chance to properly stir it and use it.

[Drak]

In the past 2 months, I have started to learn just how much you can do with that Home Depot $3.00 2-part epoxy.

Here is a Tele. See the electric blue in the upper horns? Those were big holes in the spalt, and I filled them with the 2-part mixed with some blue glitter tint.

Yes, this is a gratuitous Tele pic posting!

[westhemann]

nice cinder blocks framing that propane tank...in texas we call that a shootin' range...

[Bmachine]

Thanks for the tip, Wes. I'll have to go and get the slower stuff then as I only have the 5 min one right now. Any tip on applying the gooey epoxy around the tight curves of the guitar?

Wow Drak, that is some, uhhh, wildly evocative figure on that tele! I'm curious as to your next step, here... Obviously you will leave the wood clear but the electric blue... ?

[Drak]

That puppy's as good as done, I'm putting the clearcoats on it now and that's it, string it up and RAWK ( ). Whenever possible, I just 'go with the wood' where it takes me. The blue is there to stay, just as it is.

I think for the epoxy I would use those black foam brushes, should work good.

Maybe snip the very end off of it, get the foam a little closer to the plastic paddle in the middle to make it a sniff stiffer.

Just don't get ANY epoxy on you, your fingers, the side of your arm, that's how it travels. I swear, every time I'm done with it, I've got it on 5 different parts of me, no matter how FREAKIN' meticulously careful I am with it.

CA? Never a problem. Never get even a tiny drop on me unless I have my finger in it on purpose. ...Bollocks sez I...

PS, mix both batches together all at once, and mix it good.

PPS, don't leave any more on the surface than you absolutely have to, as this will make for hours of joyful invigorating sanding later on. Just apply what it needs, no mo'.

[Cloud]

I think a respirator is just one of those things everyone should have to be honest. When I am sawing wood I rarely ever wear a dust mask, but I always wear goggles. Like stated bondo should work better on more opened grained woods like mahogany. Also for making the grain less visible before sealing you could have raised the grain and sanded it back before applying sealer minimizing any show through.

[daveq]

I've tried goggles, respirator, anything I can get my hands on but that CA stuff really bothers my eyes. I still use it but I have to really fight through the process. Would it make sense to use a fan? Would it make the CA dry too fast? Would it even help with the eye thing at all?

There must be certain pieces of alder that have issues with grain filling. I have heard that some people feel that it is needed and have heard many others who don't. I've only done two bodies with alder but I haven't seen any problems going without. Maybe it just depends on the tree / piece?

[Maiden69]

Ok, first for grain filler I don't recomend bondo (except for plywood contour area, that thing takes forever to fill in) , for cavity filling yes! Like for Pups holes and other small holes, like deep gouges on the body. For grain filler I use epoxy or StewMac grain filler. For alder if you are going for a solid color, a thin even coat of primer is what I would use if using duplicolor paint, if using nitro, I would get some sanding sealer. Alder grain is so small that it takes nothing to fill it in.

Dave this might be a little too extreme, but I suggest you get a cheap swimming goggles and try it, you loose a lot of peripheral view, but you can see well stright and the fumes won't bother your eyes. Regular goggles got holes on the side and the fumes creap in.

Drak that thing is coming off nice, have you updated the thread that you got them all on? I need to check.

[daveq]

swimming goggles - I should have thought of that! Thanks!

It will look goofy but if it works - I'll do it.

[Drak]

I demand a pic be posted of Dave applying CA w/ the swimming goggles!

PS, I don't think Alder is any different from one tree to the next.

I mean, Alder DOES have pores, just small ones, so yes, finish WILL settle in the pores, but very little compared to other, more porous woods.

I just shot the guitar above, which is Alder, and yes, I had to sand back the first 2-3 coats, but comparatively speaking, that's -very- small potatoes. To me, that's almost a givaway compared to what I normally have to do.

But if you wanted a hard core -DEAD- flat surface that you didn't want -ANY- settling to occur in, well then, I agree, I'd be pore filling it too.

So, both sides are right!

[jer7440]

If you are spreading CA with your finger, wrap your finger in one of those cheap plastic sandwich bags. The kind you fold over to close. I used to do this when I built rc planes. Works like a million bucks. The CA doesn't stick to that kind of plastic.

[Daniel Sorbera]

man Drak thats an ausome tele! mabye you could do a tutorial on how you did that !

ya you could do all that to fill your grain.. or just buy this

Edited November 30, 2004 by Godin SD

[Maiden69]

Hey Godin, it's Drak, not dark!

Any way, I too demand pics of Dave with the goggles on!!! make sure to take them while spreading that CA!

Hey Drak, wouldn't it be easier to use sanding sealer or the StewMac Colr tone grain filler than CA or Epoxy? This is what I'm working with on my guitar. and like sanding sealer you can apply it before or after staining.

[Bmachine]

Thanks all for the great info.

I did a test run with 5 min epoxy syringes on a small piece of alder last night and it came out real nice for the most part. I had a few air bubbles and other bumps which I need to look into. Probably laid it on too thick. I find it to be a little too hard to spread thinly. Maybe the 30 min or one hour stuff will spread better. Apart from that, it is glassy smoth and should make the rest of the operation a breeze. Dries ultra fast too of course.

So all this being said, what is the difference between a sanding sealer and a grain filler. Don't they basically do the same thing?

And after this coat of either epoxy or CA, do I still need a coat of primer? It seems like, after a nice smooth snading job, I should be able to spray the color right on that, no?

[Cloud]

I would still prime over top the CA if your using auto paint. First prime, sand, then a tack coat, then a color coat, sand, (repeat the last 2 steps as necessary), clear coat, sand, repeat these 2 steps as necessary.

I suppose sand and sealer if you applied enough coats would fill in grain ???

Edited November 30, 2004 by Cloud

[Drak]

So all this being said, what is the difference between a sanding sealer and a grain filler. Don't they basically do the same thing?

Sanding sealer and grain filler are two -completely- different types of products.

All sanding sealer is is finish with stearates (basically soap) added, to make the initial sanding easier. That's all it is. AND the stearates in the product make the finish slightly weaker. As long as you don't overdo it, probably not really noticable at all, but the soap additives make the film finish a little weaker than just using the finish itself to pore fill instead of using the sealer first. The sealer may have additional solids content also compared to the actual finish to help build a level coat faster.

Again, all sanding sealer does is make it easier to sand your initial coats, and I'm not that much of a girly-man to have to have soap in my products to help me sand a finish, hehehe...

Pore filler is either oil-based or water-based and it has cellulose fiberous particulate matter (solids content) mixed into the base (oil or water) to fill pores (your basic wood dust in liquid form).

Do they do the same thing? Well, let's say they share a few similar characteristics.

Are they the same thing? No way compadre.

[Maiden69]

De nada Drak! I have used sanding sealer only once but I had no idea that that was the reason for it. All I'm using now is slow setting epoxy (black) and clear grain filler (water based) from Stew Mac. And I must say it works great, I haven't used CA, but I have used super glue in a few ocasions, especialy when I want to fill a very thin seam between 2 wood pieces, I know that grain filler will fill the seam too, but I like the precision of the think tiup and the fact that it's liquid and it sweeps between both pieces of material and fill completely.