LosLobos Posted December 12, 2004 Report Share Posted December 12, 2004 Hey u guys. I was looking for a metalic sound for my fretboard. I know that people has experimented with aluminum but its not good for the tuning in heat and cold. But I was thinking about building a fretboard in Titanium. Does anybody know if Titanium would work better with temperatur change. I know it would be more heavy -Around 500 g for a 2mm thick freboard but I think it would be ok. Can anybody help me with informations and comments?? Thanks alot!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crafty Posted December 12, 2004 Report Share Posted December 12, 2004 One question: Are you an experienced machinist with access to a high-quality CNC mill? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tirapop Posted December 13, 2004 Report Share Posted December 13, 2004 Are you talking just fretboard or whole neck? Ti would be prohibitively expensive for a whole neck. Ti does have a much lower coefficient of thermal expansion than aluminum, about a third. Ti is going to be very difficult for you to work unless you have access to a well equiped shop. As metals go, Ti is pretty gummy, which slows down cutting/machining and accelerates tool wear. I don't know how you're going to accomplish fretting. When you drive frets into wood, the barbs in the tang crush wood, to make room for them. If you drive metal frets into a conventional sized slots metal fretboard two things can happen: elastic deformation (the Ti will stretch and the frets will compress) and plastic deformation (something gets bent or dented). I would guess that your Ti fretboard is going to be longer after you've driven in all your frets. Conventional airplane wings and bodies are made of aluminum sheet riveted to other bits. As the rivets are driven, they expand in their holes, "stretching" the holes. The net result of having a long sheet aluminum with a line of rivets in it is that the part grows. Since frets aren't evenly spaced, the growth is going to be nonuniform and greater as you go up the neck. I don't know if it would be enough to affect intonation. Also since metal doesn't crush (change it's density/volume), you could end up with the fretboard swelling upward around the fret barb locations. You could make wider slots and glue in the frets. That might work well enough, but, when you have to refret, the heat you use to soften the glue to remove the fret will also soften the glue holding the fretboard to the neck. So, you're looking for a metallic sound from your fretboard? I'm ignorant about what metal fretboards would sound like, never having heard one. What's it sound like? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asm Posted December 13, 2004 Report Share Posted December 13, 2004 have you seen the new line of diamond fretboards? really nice stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhoads56 Posted December 13, 2004 Report Share Posted December 13, 2004 We need an official "Warning, This Is A Hair Brained Scheme In Progress" badge for posts like these.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wasabi J Posted December 13, 2004 Report Share Posted December 13, 2004 (edited) And like mine. I like the idea of exotic guitar parts... like ESP Japan's Tungsten bridge. Crazy, unique. Hey... I'vve always thought about what kind of crazy sustain an aluminum hollow core body guitar would have... Heh... sounds to me like what you need to do man, is get you lots of a particular rubbing compound... I gotta ask my bud who's the metal working FREAK what it's called... seriously makes steel work like butter, so I'm imagining it would make your job a bit easier. Think it's just some heavy duty jeweler's polish. Have you decided if you were going to have one piece for frets and board? That would seem most logical, stead of trying to arc weld 24 pieces of steel or harder to that thing, also more aesthetically appealing. I dont think you realy need it 2 whole millimeters thick. Instead, I'd find some 1 mil stock, and kinda roll it or fold it very tightly where the frets were to go... but that's just me. You have fun with that, and DEFINITELY post pictures... my friend will love to see this. This is the rolling idea I got... This one's neat, and I like it, because it doesn't need fretwire and doesn't look like conventional frets, but would work quite the same. Plus, it looks like dragon scales, and dragons are kewl. And the folding one... Of course.. those are loose to show what I was invisioning.. can't wait to see how you are going to do it. Edited December 13, 2004 by Wasabi J Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhoads56 Posted December 13, 2004 Report Share Posted December 13, 2004 Thanks Wasabi, you just made my entire day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wasabi J Posted December 13, 2004 Report Share Posted December 13, 2004 (edited) Titanium is strong... TENSILE STRENGTH... but, it is definitely foldable, my friend. ABOUT TITANIUM Titanium is a lustrous silver-white metal that exhibits allotropy ; below about 880 it has a hexagonal crystalline structure, but above that temperature it changes to a cubic crystalline structure. The metal is strong and has low density; it is ductile when pure and malleable when heated. Its chemical properties resemble those of zirconium, the element below it in group IVb of the periodic table . When heated, it ignites and burns in air. It is the only element that burns in nitrogen. It is very corrosion resistant and is unattacked by most acids, by moist chlorine gas, or by common salt solutions..... Edited December 13, 2004 by Wasabi J Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGM Guitars Posted December 13, 2004 Report Share Posted December 13, 2004 God, this thread is crackin me up. I've spent many hours with titanium, inconel, astroloy, and just about every exotic alloy you can imagine. Beyond the cost (you will drop probably about $1000 for a piece of titanium big enough for a fretboard without any problem) you have the machining issue, you will need a mill for that, CNC preferably. You will need specialized cutters in titanium, it also will work harden almost immediately if you're not careful. So ASSUMING you can actually machine it, then you need a fretting solution, I suppose if you were running a CNC you could realistically mill the whole board with the frets right in it and not have to fret anything, but then you also could never refret it, not that you should have to if they are titanium and you harden it before use. BUT, then the toughest part, how the hell do you plan on adhering it to the actual neck? Glue won't do it well, screws maybe.... Well, if you do it, I'd love to see it, lots of luck. Oh, and Wasabi, there is no form of compound that makes metal easier to work with, the only thing you can do is anneal it, titanium in it's softest form is hard to work with and will work harden, if your bud is telling you there is some compound out there, he's not got a clue and should really go back to school Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wasabi J Posted December 13, 2004 Report Share Posted December 13, 2004 (edited) Like I said about that compound, I wasn't sure... I was just trying to offer SOME help. And it did help him reshape a huge ding in an exhibition katana I damgaged in a bizarre brick hating incident... I swear it did. Heh... I dunno ... maybe I am a dumbass, but I saw him working it out. Like I said... I really am NOT the metal geek like my friend, who could tell you everything you could ever wanna know about a metal. I'm sure he woulda laughed too. But I still like the metal fretboard idea, and I may try it out someday on some aluminum. We got lots of that at my friends. Attachment? Maybe bindings... like permanent tie-downs or something. Really, I am trying to bite my tongue because I find it rude to simply laugh and put down others ideas... though I couldn't give a rat's ass if someone does it to me. I just don't like the idea of telling people it CAN'T be done, without saying the slightest regarding the possibilities. Edited December 13, 2004 by Wasabi J Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhoads56 Posted December 13, 2004 Report Share Posted December 13, 2004 ABOUT TITANIUM . When heated, it ignites and burns in air. It is the only element that burns in nitrogen. It is very corrosion resistant and is unattacked by most acids, by moist chlorine gas, or by common salt solutions..... EXCELLENT, next time im orbitting in jupiters chorine gas atmosphere, i'll have a smile on my face knowing my fretboard aint going to disintergrate. However, the maple neck its attached to with me a bit of a mess i think. FANTASTIC, i know titanium can be folded, but LETS SEE YOU DO IT. Then lets see you get 22-24 frets folded into a $1000-1500 piece of "scrap" titanium, accurate to within 0.005 of an inch. THEN lets see you put a radius on the fretboard. THEN, lets see you level it, and recrown the "folded metal" which is nowhere near the shape of a fret crown anyway. GOOD LUCK MY FRIEND, ITS DREAMS LIKE YOURS THAT PUT MAN ON THE MOON. Unfortunately, you probably dont have the entire resources of the USA and their space budget, to achieve your goal, which is exactly what you'll need. Quit while your already behind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wasabi J Posted December 13, 2004 Report Share Posted December 13, 2004 (edited) XD Bite me... LOL Alright, alright.. sorry for being Mr. No. 1 Jackass now... I'll go cry in a corner now. I was simply listing a possibility for ANY metal. I assumed if he got the Ti, he'd have the other resources. Good lord, now everyone thinks I'm an idiot! Whoo hoo!! Mission accomplished by day one. LOL. And like I said, those angles aren't exact... If you went in armed with these schemes, I'd have to reach across the WWW and slap you! They were just concepts... me blathering! XD Edited December 13, 2004 by Wasabi J Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skibum5545 Posted December 13, 2004 Report Share Posted December 13, 2004 Okay, so here's what we've determined: --It's possible with a huge budget and expensive tools, as posed by Wasabi --It's not plausible for the layman, as posed by Rhoads Unless there is any more positive,constructive things to be said, the pointless bickering and insults needn't continue further. Wasabi: neat idea, but I'm not sure how plausible it is. Would it hold its shape? How would you go about radiusing it, exactly, and then how would you attach it to the neck? A sheet seems out of the question. If the cost of titanium weren't so prohibitive, milling the board and frets as one would be plausible. Reminds me of those "Bond" guitars with the step fretboards. Titanium isn't moldable, though.... I think that except for buying a large bar of Titanium and milling it down, the idea really can't go very far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darren wilson Posted December 13, 2004 Report Share Posted December 13, 2004 This might be a good idea for a fretless bass, but not for one with frets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crafty Posted December 13, 2004 Report Share Posted December 13, 2004 Okay, so here's what we've determined: --It's possible with a huge budget and expensive tools, as posed by Wasabi --It's not plausible for the layman, as posed by Rhoads Okay, all we have to do now is find someone with a lot of cash laying around, a skilled machinist, a CNC mill, and a scrapper SR-71 or MiG-25. 1. We've got that guy who did the aluminum guitar. 2. He has a mill, although not a CNC, maybe we can rent one at Home Depot, like a tile saw. 3. I don't live too far away from the Strategic Air Command Museum. They have an SR-71 on permanent static display. I wonder if they have any of the scrap titanium left over from the decommissioning and display process. We could root through their dumpster from the snack bar or something. 4. No cash. Rats! You gotta admit, if someone could pull it off, it'd be wicked awesome. It would definitely get my vote for GOTM. Hardened titanium frets machined into a billet of titanium for a fretboard would just rule, whether or NOT it actually sounded cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thedoctor Posted December 13, 2004 Report Share Posted December 13, 2004 Titanium actually welds quite nicely but the fold idea is better cause yout would be working with, say, a .015 to .023 sheet. I vote for 6061-T6 9ga. aluminum that is not fastened down to the neck except at sparse intervals. Put a contact mike on it so you can hear all your near-misses and dudes. (duds?) (dudes?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevan Posted December 13, 2004 Report Share Posted December 13, 2004 Guys- Let 'em come up with ideas. Will everyone be feasible? No way. Is this one? Maybe, if the guy has about $1500-$2000 to set afire and can use The Force to hold the fretboard to the neck. :-) No need to bash or dream-crush. No one's life is threatened by working on a Ti board. There are no safety issues (save for the machine shop stuff). There's no scamming going on. Let's try to keep it positive. If you read about a error someone is about to make, please post about it. If you read inaccurate information (like LGM did), go ahead and post a correction. If you don't want to post, that's fine too. Remember: if it weren't for a radio repairman's "crazy idea", we'd all be playing Ric's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asm Posted December 13, 2004 Report Share Posted December 13, 2004 man this thread is crackin me up. i KNEW ormsby was gonna pop in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhoads56 Posted December 13, 2004 Report Share Posted December 13, 2004 man this thread is crackin me up. i KNEW ormsby was gonna pop in. Just being a realist dude. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devon Headen Posted December 13, 2004 Report Share Posted December 13, 2004 I've never actually attempted machining Ti for financial reasons. I have studies it quite a lot, though. Jeremy's right, it work hardens easily. I reckon you could just keep annealing it, so that's not a huge problem although it just adds another step (or 7). From what I've heard it can be a little bit dangerous also if you don't know what you're doing. I'm not sure how true it is, but I've heard it said that if the metal shavings start to burn, then water will not put out the flames. If you try this definitely take all the safety precautions recommended. I'm getting a quote for a piece the size of a fretboard, I'll let you guys know how much it is. I'm nearly positive it will be nowhere near $1000. My guess is $300-400 probably. Obviously that's still VERY expensive for a fretboard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asm Posted December 13, 2004 Report Share Posted December 13, 2004 From what I've heard it can be a little bit dangerous also if you don't know what you're doing. I'm not sure how true it is, but I've heard it said that if the metal shavings start to burn, then water will not put out the flames. i think your thinking of Magnesium. im pretty sure Ti doesnt burn. also, good luck finding someone that can mill that large of a piece precisely. the redneck machine shops will charge you a fortune cause they arent going to have the tooling necessary to cut Ti. so the Aerospace machine shops will surely bend you over. after finishing a job for Boeing or the like, im sure they like kids coming in with dreams of making a 'titanium guitar'. they LOVE cutting deals to those people on top of that, get ready to pay someone a sum to setup your MasterCAM file before it goes to the mill. you cant cut Ti the same way you cut Al toolpath wise. you have to pluge cut Ti and finish it with end mills due to the extreme heat that builds up, and killing their 500$ single cutting tool is not what they like to do. all in all, hope you have a summer job planned out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primal Posted December 14, 2004 Report Share Posted December 14, 2004 Why not just go with something like aluminum or steel. If you use steel (or are a VERY good welder, aluminum) and can get the fretboard radiused and slotted, you could just grind the tangs off of the fretwire and weld the frets on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted December 14, 2004 Report Share Posted December 14, 2004 Why not just go with something like aluminum or steel. If you use steel (or are a VERY good welder, aluminum) and can get the fretboard radiused and slotted, you could just grind the tangs off of the fretwire and weld the frets on. i am not sure because i do not weld this type of stuff...but joining two dissimilar metals like that makes me nervous...not to mention the fact that i don't think the fretwire can handle the heat...even if it was tig welded i have an idea...!!!!! use a wood fretboard. seems like it has worked for someone else before anyway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primal Posted December 14, 2004 Report Share Posted December 14, 2004 Why not just go with something like aluminum or steel. If you use steel (or are a VERY good welder, aluminum) and can get the fretboard radiused and slotted, you could just grind the tangs off of the fretwire and weld the frets on. i am not sure because i do not weld this type of stuff...but joining two dissimilar metals like that makes me nervous...not to mention the fact that i don't think the fretwire can handle the heat...even if it was tig welded i have an idea...!!!!! use a wood fretboard. seems like it has worked for someone else before anyway Use a stainless steel fretboard and stainless steel frets. There is also always epoxy. They make epoxies that are made to join metals together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wasabi J Posted December 14, 2004 Report Share Posted December 14, 2004 I'm taking my rolled fret-board idea, planting it on aluminum and running with it. Serious, I will post pics when I finish it... dunno what its gonna go on yet, though... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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