Titanium As Fretboard?

[Devon Headen]

Sounds interesting. How exactly do you plan to do it, and do it as accurately as it needs to be?

[Wasabi J]

Lot's of time over winter to try and figure that out. Possibly use a device that has two iron rods, very thin, and clamping and hand rolling the aluminum around it, and when done, pull em out, and squish the thing down a bit. I could get it fairly close, plus a little pull or push in specific areas could put the fine tuning on it. I don't exactly know how, but that's my plan so far. Wish me luck.

[westhemann]

lol. perry is never afraid to speak his mind.

man, you need to find a good 'this thread contains bad advice' pic, seems like you could use it alot recently.

okay...that is enough.this thread is not about "bad advice",it is about a discussion which may or may not be feasible

edit some of the off topic crap has been deleted

[rhoads56]

Wes, i dont need external encouragement, i will do that myself

Wasabi, the problem i now see, is that aluminium is WAY too soft, and will last no more than an hour of playing. All that work for nothing?

If you really have to have a metal fretboard, do it in aluminium, then cut the slots as normal, grind the tangs off the fret wire, and glue them in.

[Curtis P]

Wes, i dont need external encouragement, i will do that myself

Wasabi, the problem i now see, is that aluminium is WAY too soft, and will last no more than an hour of playing. All that work for nothing?

If you really have to have a metal fretboard, do it in aluminium, then cut the slots as normal, grind the tangs off the fret wire, and glue them in.

you said that alluminum is too soft, then to do it in alluminum??

Curtis

[westhemann]

Wes, i dont need external encouragement, i will do that myself

Wasabi, the problem i now see, is that aluminium is WAY too soft, and will last no more than an hour of playing. All that work for nothing?

If you really have to have a metal fretboard, do it in aluminium, then cut the slots as normal, grind the tangs off the fret wire, and glue them in.

you said that alluminum is too soft, then to do it in alluminum??

Curtis

he said aluminum is too soft for fretwire.not for the board itself

[psw]

Wasabi j...thanks for posting those idea pics, it's good to see someone exploring possibilities. I have thought about this kind of thing for a while (not titanium mind you) and if you look back I was asking people if they remembered the bond guitar and it's step board. The fretboard was to be molded from carbon fibre but most of them were made from machined aluminium due to production problems.

Anyway, there are several patents of this nature. One recent patent is for a perfectly do-able epoxy fretboard with glass frets using microshperes and epoxy.

There is a lot of work in producing necks and fretboards and I don't see any problem in exploring alternatives to this labour intensive process.

Don't kill off people brainstorming...they may just come back to something practical eventually

psw

[Wasabi J]

OK... So aluminum's that soft? Hmm... might try brass.

I just really like the aesthetics of this "step-board" look. I really wanna try it on something.

[psw]

Me too...but it doesn't have to be metal you know

Try one of my ideas if you like...cut individual plates of...whatever, aluminium, Ti, cardboard, timber, I don't really care...about 1-2mm thick, and overlap them at each step at exactly the right fret intervals. Seriously coat the whole thing in some kind of tough epoxy to resist wear. Instead of refretting, re-coat the epoxy!

(Did I say too much Kevan?)

Also, on fixing the fretboard...the bond guitar bolted the fretboard to the neck via bolts hidden under the fret marker dots. The idea being that should the 'board get too worn it could be easily removed and replaced. Now that's thinking!

By the way, did you know that the step-board dates back to the days of medieval lutes and they made theirs from ebony. I haven't been able to source any information on these ancient instruments but the designer of the Bond guitar said that that was his inspiration and I've seen it mentioned several times in books. Any one know anything about this? It's interesting as the idea disappeared. Perhaps frets are just intrinsically better.

I briefly played a Bond guitar when it first came out at a music show but I can't really remember how it felt to play. It does feel different and not necessarilly better as I recall. In theory, your pushing onto the fretboard, not bending over the fretwire, so your getting the feel and friction of the board under your fingers and pushing onto something solid. Kind of the opposite to a scoloped fretboard where you don't feel the fretboard at all. This is good for intonation but may make bending harder and you feel more fatigue, from fighting against the board.

I'm fascinated by the idea cause, I agree, it looks cool and it's kind of an elegant solution, but more so because it suggests ways of manufacture that could make super accurate fretboards and guitar necks without the need for the labour intensive fretting. And, well it's kind of different I guess.

I've got some more ideas on it... but sorry, I can't tell you... on ways to address some of these problems but I'm really glad, (flame throwing aside!) that there are people prepared to contemplate the idea and other's like them.

psw

[Hotrock]

Back to the Ti:

I know someone that made a ring from a billet of Titanium. He started off using his lathe at home with a standard tool steel tool.

First attempt: Broke tool

Second Attempt: Broke tool

Third Attempt: Broke tool because it heated so much and melted off the holder

Fourth Attempt: More of the same and turned the Ti blue

etc etc

Either way he's done it now (6th attmpt) but it did involve buying a new lathe and a special tool. I still haven't seen the ring but I hear it's a bit blue as standard coolant just doesn't cut it

[psw]

Has anyone considered whether something as tough as this type of material isn't going to wear out the strings on the frets a lot quicker than a softer material...really it only needs to be tougher than the strings...just a thought!

Perhaps, it would be better to choose a material that would reduce such wear...at least that's where my thinking's going...oh and the price of this stuff is never going to be practical is it, not that this matters so much hypothetically, but what is it exactly that's trying to be achieved here?

[Devon Headen]

I can't seem to find the right size. If you cut it, you can get it relatively cheap here.

http://www.onlinemetals.com/merchant.cfm?p...howunits=inches

It's grade 2, but I don't think that's gonna matter much here. It looks like you could get 4 or 5 blanks (1/4" thick) for $273. If you went thinner it gets cheaper. At 5 blanks, that's about $55 a blank. If you go to .093", it's only $24 a blank (assuming you can get 5 out of it). Seems like if it's what you wanted, and you have the necessary tooling, it's open for experimentation.

Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me like if you have and keep a smooth rounded, finished edge on the frets (steps), then the string wear wouldn't increase enough to be a problem. Maybe it would if you don't change your strings often.

[LGM Guitars]

*sigh*,

it's a fine idea and such, but this thread is still funny to me, I have spent hours machining titanium. Even if you buy a blank for $273 (.25" won't be thick enough for a standard thickness board if you want to include the fret height and machine the frets in) you will need specialized tooling and a CNC mill to work it. If you want zero radius in the board you could cut it all on a standard mill I guess.

Hey, I'm all for experimenting, but there is one thing to keep in mind, if it was a fantastic idea, why hasn't it been done before? the technology materials and machines have all been around for years. Metal necks and fretboards have been done in the past but never amounted to anything.

If you have unlimited time and resources ($$$) then it's all fine and good to experiment, but if you don't, well, I guess it's up to you anyway

[Kevan]

Hey, I'm all for experimenting, but there is one thing to keep in mind, if it was a fantastic idea, why hasn't it been done before? the technology materials and machines have all been around for years.  Metal necks and fretboards have been done in the past but never amounted to anything.

Well, unless you count the Kramer basses with the alum. necks that they sold truckloads of.

Or the very popular, well-reviewed Vigier Surfretter.

[psw]

We guitar players/makers are a conservative lot...me included. We still covert the original designs and sounds of the first real electric guitars of 50 years ago. At that time a solid body was radical, now we can't seem to get our head around the possibility that something worthwhile could be made from anything other than the original timbers. Many of these are getting hard to get, expensive and the quality is down.

I think it will be inevitable that something will come along that captures the imagination in look and sound. The Steinberger and Parker Fly, for example.

I reckon there's probably quite a bit of scope for alternate materials and construction techniques in neck construction. I'm not convinced myself that a metal board is the answer, but I think there are materials and construction techniques out there to address the issues of building a complex shape such as a guitar neck.

Perhaps Maccaferri, famous for Django's guitars, who produced plastic guitars and ukes at one time, had the right idea by aiming at the lower end of the market. It seems as though all of today's labour saving machines (CNC, etc.) and materials are used on the higher priced instruments...PRS, Taylor, Parker...and not really used that much to bring the cost down and the quality up. A company like Garrison, who make an acoustic bracing system and binding from plastic to support a solid top, is an example of the type of thing, that may signal the crossover to alternate materials, I think there is quite a bit of merit in this type of approach to produce a really good guitar at a reasonable price point.

There will never be a better way of producing a Strat or Les Paul than the way they were made, but I hope that these 50 year old guitars are just the begining for the instrument and it moves forward from there.

psw

not sure that metal 'boards are the go, still...

[tirapop]

When people replace steel bolts with lighter ti bolts they have to use anti-seize lubricants to keep Ti from getting stuck to other metals. Ti has a tendency to gall. In places where Ti rubs against other metal it can stick and can deposit itself on the other metal. I don't know if this would accelerate Ti fret or string wear.

I'm all for pushing the envelope, thinking outside the box, etc. I can see the aesthetic appeal of Wasabi's waved fretboard or the shingled fretboard on the Bond. But, no one's really answered the question, "what does a metal fretboard do for the sound?"

Does a metal fretboard alter the stiffness and damping in a desirable way? Is there something about the string's contact with the fretboard? Strings are mainly in contact with frets and fingers. If the strings don't necessarily need to touch the metal for the Ti tone, the metal plate could be buried under a non-metallic fretboard. The Ti could even be an inlay in the fretboard. The tang of the frets could be trimmed off in the center over the metal inlay. In the center of a fretboard, little Ti would have to be removed to radius the fretboard.

I've seen picture of an electric guitar whose neck was a tube. The "frets" were metal plates along the tube, radiused on the string side. It didn't look very comfortable, but, who knows. Having mostly air between the frets is like an extreme form of scalloping.

A metallic fretboard could use plate frets. The fretboard could be notched on its edges (maybe also slotted in the middle) to locate the plate frets. The plate frets could be bonded or brazed on. They'd be taller than normal frets, but, that might not be a bad thing for some players. The fretboard could be extruded or press formed with the desire radius. If extruded, it could have a "T" cross section, like the fretboard fused with the truss rod. It might be stiff enough that it would deflect negligibly under string tension. A wood or plastic cap would give the back of the neck a familiar and comfortable shape. Ideally, trimming the metal would be done with

waterjets or lasers. All of this is in the realm of the possible for a well equipped and well funded shop. If you're messing around in your garage or basement, don't waste your time and money on Ti fretboards.

[psw]

Thanks Triapop...my thoughts exactly.

I think a kind of stepped board does have potential but there's no need to get all exotic about it.

For sound, your looking at something very stiff, like on a graphite neck. I'd expect more sustain and volume, higher audible harmonic content and more emphisis on the tone of the body wood.

The fretboard/trussrod idea is exactly the way I had invisaged it...this allows for any profile of neck profile to be carved or even interchanged if desired.

great to see the flames are going out somewhat....

psw

[Kevan]

I've seen picture of an electric guitar whose neck was a tube.  The "frets" were metal plates along the tube, radiused on the string side.  It didn't look very comfortable, but, who knows.  Having mostly air between the frets is like an extreme form of scalloping.

I think you're referring to the Gittler's.

Andy Summers used them in a couple of Police vids way back in the day.

[tirapop]

Thanks Kevan, that's the one. I found a better pic of it. Interesting website, too.