ibanezrocker61 Posted February 24, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 (edited) Thanks for those links fryovanni! Yea this thread has kind of changed course from what the original title was "Building Necks", I don't know how or if you can change the topic title, but I guess now its "My 8-String project" lol Anyways, I thought I'd share the specs I plan on for this project: (Basically its gonna be pretty close to Meshuggah's Ibanez 8-Strings, few personal changes) ~28" Scale Neck-Thru Design ~30 Frets ~Body wood??? Any suggestions? *Thinking Mahagony* ~Neck wood??? Again, any suggestions? *Thinking Mahagony for this too* ~Ibanez Iceman style headstock 4+4 Tuning Config. (Like Meshuggah's of cousre)... with white binding ~Graphite Nut ~Ibanez RG Body style, white binding ~UV/JEM style output jack ~Ebony Fretboard with no inlay, white binding ~Single EMG45DC Pickup ~Single Volume, maybe a tone control (I love single volume/pickup configurations) ~Hipshot 8-String Fixed Bridge ~Hardware color: Chrome ~Color of guitar: Satin Black So what do you think? Got another question... can you find the kind of wood you need for a guitar project at a Home Depot or places like that? If not, there is this awesome site online... http://www.lmii.com/ Great prices!! Might shop for stuff there! ...God, I wish I could get a Lo-Pro Edge 8-String fixed bridge like on Fred and Marten's guitars. That would be sweeeeeeeeet! Edited February 24, 2005 by ibanezrocker61 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ibanezrocker61 Posted February 26, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 26, 2005 (edited) ibanezrocker61,Feb 24 2005, 01:37 AM]Got another question... can you find the kind of wood you need for a guitar project at a Home Depot or places like that? Well? Edited February 26, 2005 by ibanezrocker61 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RGGR Posted February 26, 2005 Report Share Posted February 26, 2005 .. can you find the kind of wood you need for a guitar project at a Home Depot or places like that? Yeah, kinda sorta at paces like that.........see - http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=14825 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ibanezrocker61 Posted February 27, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 27, 2005 Lets say you order a neck blank from actual guitar supply websites, are the blanks wide and long enough to do an 8-string? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devon Headen Posted February 27, 2005 Report Share Posted February 27, 2005 You'll need to draw your plans first to make sure. I'm pretty sure they'd be wide enough, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fryovanni Posted February 27, 2005 Report Share Posted February 27, 2005 Anyways, I thought I'd share the specs I plan on for this project: (Basically its gonna be pretty close to Meshuggah's Ibanez 8-Strings, few personal changes) ~28" Scale Neck-Thru Design ~30 Frets ~Body wood??? Any suggestions? *Thinking Mahagony* ~Neck wood??? Again, any suggestions? *Thinking Mahagony for this too* ~Ibanez Iceman style headstock 4+4 Tuning Config. (Like Meshuggah's of cousre)... with white binding ~Graphite Nut ~Ibanez RG Body style, white binding ~UV/JEM style output jack ~Ebony Fretboard with no inlay, white binding ~Single EMG45DC Pickup ~Single Volume, maybe a tone control (I love single volume/pickup configurations) ~Hipshot 8-String Fixed Bridge ~Hardware color: Chrome ~Color of guitar: Satin Black Lets say you order a neck blank from actual guitar supply websites, are the blanks wide and long enough to do an 8-string? You will probably not be able to just pick up an "off the rack" neck blank. First of all you are doing a neck thru design and most blanks are based on set or bolt on "common" sizes. The other issue that will make this a bit different is the 28" scale, not that Baratone lengths are unheard off just not as common. You really do need to accurately draw this up so you know what you need before you buy parts. The fretboard will probably need to be more like a 5 string bass blank (given your longer scale and 30 frets). You really need to plan well for the neck. You will have a bit of extra weight at the headstock, 28" scale compounded with two additional strings will add a lot of tension, and I am going to bet you will be cutting pretty deep into the lower cut to get access to the 30th. fret. Do you know how thin of a profile you want on the back of the neck. Again I am going to go out on a limb and say you probably won't be using a nice fat boat shape, but thinner profile will weaken things also. You can probably work out the issues w/ truss and a couple of rods, similar to a 5 string bass. I would be inclined to use laminate stock, allowing you to use stronger stringers and orient the wood to quatersawn. Laminated material will resist twisting a bit better also (my opinion). It's going to be tuff for a first build because you can't just go check another guitar for reference. You best do a lot of research so you know what you are doing. I really hope you are using drafting software. If you draw up what you are planning accurately you will have a much lower risk of making a major error. Sounds like a killer guitar, Good luck!!!! Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ibanezrocker61 Posted February 27, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 27, 2005 (edited) Anyways, I thought I'd share the specs I plan on for this project: (Basically its gonna be pretty close to Meshuggah's Ibanez 8-Strings, few personal changes) ~28" Scale Neck-Thru Design ~30 Frets ~Body wood??? Any suggestions? *Thinking Mahagony* ~Neck wood??? Again, any suggestions? *Thinking Mahagony for this too* ~Ibanez Iceman style headstock 4+4 Tuning Config. (Like Meshuggah's of cousre)... with white binding ~Graphite Nut ~Ibanez RG Body style, white binding ~UV/JEM style output jack ~Ebony Fretboard with no inlay, white binding ~Single EMG45DC Pickup ~Single Volume, maybe a tone control (I love single volume/pickup configurations) ~Hipshot 8-String Fixed Bridge ~Hardware color: Chrome ~Color of guitar: Satin Black Lets say you order a neck blank from actual guitar supply websites, are the blanks wide and long enough to do an 8-string? You will probably not be able to just pick up an "off the rack" neck blank. First of all you are doing a neck thru design and most blanks are based on set or bolt on "common" sizes. The other issue that will make this a bit different is the 28" scale, not that Baratone lengths are unheard off just not as common. You really do need to accurately draw this up so you know what you need before you buy parts. The fretboard will probably need to be more like a 5 string bass blank (given your longer scale and 30 frets). You really need to plan well for the neck. You will have a bit of extra weight at the headstock, 28" scale compounded with two additional strings will add a lot of tension, and I am going to bet you will be cutting pretty deep into the lower cut to get access to the 30th. fret. Do you know how thin of a profile you want on the back of the neck. Again I am going to go out on a limb and say you probably won't be using a nice fat boat shape, but thinner profile will weaken things also. You can probably work out the issues w/ truss and a couple of rods, similar to a 5 string bass. I would be inclined to use laminate stock, allowing you to use stronger stringers and orient the wood to quatersawn. Laminated material will resist twisting a bit better also (my opinion). It's going to be tuff for a first build because you can't just go check another guitar for reference. You best do a lot of research so you know what you are doing. I really hope you are using drafting software. If you draw up what you are planning accurately you will have a much lower risk of making a major error. Sounds like a killer guitar, Good luck!!!! Rich ← Well as far as making sure I wanna do this right, thats why I'm asking questions The body will be modded a little for the 30 frets of course, but I might just end up going with regular 24 frets, if so it will look like a regular RG pretty much. The profile I do want pretty slim and I had the fact it will be weaker in mind... but also was thinking about maybe two truss rods. About the neck also, I was thinking doing a multi-piece neck, not just a single piece of _____?? I was thinking of using Mahagony for both the body and neck, and since I said a multi-piece neck, what other material might work along with Mahagony? (If any) I hear Mahagony is pretty damn strong, I might not need other materials to strengthen the neck, but as far as building guitars, I'm no expert so I'll leave that to you guys who know much more. I will say this though, once I actually do get the wood etc... and I predict from the get-go I'll have troubles, I may take it to a luthier to get the neck made, making bodies are very easy for me so thats no biggie, but the neck... whew! I've never made a neck before but bodies I have. haha with "I've never made a neck before" said, taking it to a luthier wouldnt be a bad idea? lol BUT, gotta start somewhere right? Thanks for all the help!! Edited February 27, 2005 by ibanezrocker61 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnewman Posted February 27, 2005 Report Share Posted February 27, 2005 (edited) Well as far as making sure I wanna do this right, thats why I'm asking questions The body will be modded a little for the 30 frets of course, but I might just end up going with regular 24 frets, if so it will look like a regular RG pretty much. The profile I do want pretty slim and I had the fact it will be weaker in mind... but also was thinking about maybe two truss rods. About the neck also, I was thinking doing a multi-piece neck, not just a single piece of _____?? I was thinking of using Mahagony for both the body and neck, and since I said a multi-piece neck, what other material might work along with Mahagony? (If any) I hear Mahagony is pretty damn strong, I might not need other materials to strengthen the neck, but as far as building guitars, I'm no expert so I'll leave that to you guys who know much more. I will say this though, once I actually do get the wood etc... and I predict from the get-go I'll have troubles, I may take it to a luthier to get the neck made, making bodies are very easy for me so thats no biggie, but the neck... whew! I've never made a neck before but bodies I have. haha with "I've never made a neck before" said, taking it to a luthier wouldnt be a bad idea? lol BUT, gotta start somewhere right? Thanks for all the help!! ← Mahogany is actually only moderately strong as far as hardwoods go. Strength as we need it for this is measured by a figure called the "modulus of elasticity," and the higher it is, the more load is needed to deform the wood. Using http://www.woodweb.com/Resources/wood_eng_handbook/Ch04.pdf as a reference, I pulled out numbers for everything they had that I've seen used in guitars: Limba : 7,000 MPa Alder : 9,500 MPa Basswood : 10,100 MPa Black Cherry : 10,300 MPa Mahogany : 10,300 MPa Black Oak : 11,300 MPa Black Walnut : 11,600 MPa White Ash : 12,000 MPa Sapele : 12,500 MPa Rock/Sugar Maple : 12,600 MPa Brazilian Rosewood : 13,000 MPa Live Oak : 13,700 MPa Water Oak : 13,900 MPa Pignut Hickory : 15,600 MPa Purpleheart : 15,700 MPa Bubinga : 17,100 MPa So, with all those numbers, if you want a pretty thin neck that'll be able to stand up to a lot of strings and won't bend too much, a GREAT option would be Mahogany with some purpleheart or bubinga laminated in - they're exotic woods that everyone loves and that are very beautiful. (For those who care, the modulus of elasticity E is defined such that (Load/Area of sample perpendicular to load)=E*(change in length under load/original length). While not actually a measure of strength under flexure (like a guitar neck), strength under flexure is directly related to strength under axial loading, and as such these numbers used purely as ratios of relative strength under axial or flexural load are still more or less valid. I think I may have to add another guitar at the end of the list of guitars I'm going to build made out of hickory. Edited February 27, 2005 by jnewman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ibanezrocker61 Posted February 27, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 27, 2005 Mahogany is actually only moderately strong as far as hardwoods go. Strength as we need it for this is measured by a figure called the "modulus of elasticity," and the higher it is, the more load is needed to deform the wood. Using http://www.woodweb.com/Resources/wood_eng_handbook/Ch04.pdf as a reference, I pulled out numbers for everything they had that I've seen used in guitars: Limba : 7,000 MPa Alder : 9,500 MPa Basswood : 10,100 MPa Black Cherry : 10,300 MPa Mahogany : 10,300 MPa Black Oak : 11,300 MPa Black Walnut : 11,600 MPa White Ash : 12,000 MPa Sapele : 12,500 MPa Rock/Sugar Maple : 12,600 MPa Brazilian Rosewood : 13,000 MPa Live Oak : 13,700 MPa Water Oak : 13,900 MPa Pignut Hickory : 15,600 MPa Purpleheart : 15,700 MPa Bubinga : 17,100 MPa So, with all those numbers, if you want a pretty thin neck that'll be able to stand up to a lot of strings and won't bend too much, a GREAT option would be Mahogany with some purpleheart or bubinga laminated in - they're exotic woods that everyone loves and that are very beautiful. (For those who care, the modulus of elasticity E is defined such that (Load/Area of sample perpendicular to load)=E*(change in length under load/original length). While not actually a measure of strength under flexure (like a guitar neck), strength under flexure is directly related to strength under axial loading, and as such these numbers used purely as ratios of relative strength under axial or flexural load are still more or less valid. I think I may have to add another guitar at the end of the list of guitars I'm going to build made out of hickory. ← oo sweet, great advise there, gonna use that! Thanks man! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fryovanni Posted February 27, 2005 Report Share Posted February 27, 2005 You mentioned two truss rods again. That may pose some problems. If you want a thin profile two truss rods will require more material on the back of that neck and limit how you shape that profile. I would't really think about two truss unless I was building a six string bass, and that is a much wider neck than you will have. Maybe reinforcing rods would do the trick? I have never built an an 8 string guitar neck so I am not speaking from experience, maybe they use 2 truss. I dunno. Have fun dude. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ibanezrocker61 Posted February 28, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 28, 2005 You mentioned two truss rods again. That may pose some problems. If you want a thin profile two truss rods will require more material on the back of that neck and limit how you shape that profile. I would't really think about two truss unless I was building a six string bass, and that is a much wider neck than you will have. Maybe reinforcing rods would do the trick? I have never built an an 8 string guitar neck so I am not speaking from experience, maybe they use 2 truss. I dunno. Have fun dude. ← I can ask Jeremy (LGM), unless he sees this and tells me here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RGGR Posted February 28, 2005 Report Share Posted February 28, 2005 (edited) I'm bit in limbo on this one.......please help me out here....... When reading this thread, on one side I have this tumpering sound in back of my head. This deep voice telling me........there goes a car into the crowd........this can't go right.....this is accident waiting to happen....... On other side I have this fundamental feeling that people always should shoot for the skies.......and make their dreams come true. Just reality check, though. This is your first build right??? Never done a Warmoth assembly job, never done small custimization of regular guitar.......never done real build from scratch, right???? This is going to be your first built from scratch and it's going to be a 8 string Meshuggah Ibanez copy....... You do realize that with going the 28" Scale length 8 string route,.....you set yourself up for lot's of non standard (read: complicated) stuff. Meaning......you can't buy readily available bodies or necks, you can't buy a standard pre-radiused pre-slotted fretboard........you can't use readily available 6-7 string pick-ups. You only have very slim selection of guitar bridges.......etc, ...Trussrods readily available are too short or too long.......carbon inserts would really help in your case.....but would complicate routing of channels in neck.....etc, etc... You realize you're going in areas that even experienced builders didn't dare to go to....... I think you should first have the basics right. Build yourself a nice little 6 string......do your own body, build your own neck. Every mistake you make on this guitar, you won't have to make on real deal. Use some cheap body wood.....simple maple for neck.......buy pre-radiussed fret board and standard truss rod from lmii.com or the likes......buy your electronics from allparts, or stew-mac.......just go through ropes of ordering right pieces and putting them together..... I know. I started out building JS-7 copy, from scratch, first build. Ahum! Well.....the project is coming along nicely.........so I'm prefect example that it can be done. BUT.....I have spend hours and hours reading up on stuff on this site. See how others are doing it..... copy their techniques......buying the right tools.....learning how to use 'm. Learning about different woods and interaction between them.......and still I have made hunderds of mistakes I could have done without. I wished I had build 2-4 guitars before this one.....Building your first guitar is complicated enough. Building your first 8 stringer will be shooting for the sky. Your questions are all newbie questions. You seem to have thrown some nice sounding words together and made your list of what you thought sounded cool and heard on other threads. .......You want mahogany neck cause you think it's strong.........but reality is mahogany might not be best material for your neck. Specially Ibanez type neck. There are issues with finishing it. (See LP necks they are all mahogany and all painted....just for that reason.) In your case a Maple/Bubinga/Maple type laminate (3 or 5 piece) would work better......... Why a mahogany body??? You have motivation for using Mahogany .......betya Meshuggah Ibanez 8 string has Alder body. And new Meshuggah Ibanez 8 has to my knowledge a regular bold-on neck, no neck-through. Again neck-through is also again complication in build...... What I'm trying to say is..........please do your home work.......read up on stuff on this site.......there is a ton of info in these threads that you simply need to know before just touching one piece of maple/alder/mahogany.............. Just my $0.02 Edit: And not to totally piss on your project..........A wise idea might be to contact somebody like this and have him build you a 8 string neck, for you to finish the body yourself. That way you have 50% of the work done........and you can easily buy new Alder body blank for say $30-$50, if you for some reason did f*ck up your first try. Edited February 28, 2005 by RGGR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maiden69 Posted February 28, 2005 Report Share Posted February 28, 2005 I can ask Jeremy (LGM), unless he sees this and tells me here ← I have brought this up to Jeremy before and he mentioned that with one rod and the 2 carbon fiber strips on the sides is plenty enough, and that adding 2 rods bring the possibility that by not adjusting it right you can introduce a twist to your neck, and perhaps damage it. I do think like RGGR on this, do more homework, it is not impossible, but you are gunning for a very ambitious project for a first one, and not like others that you can get templates to just follow thru. What ever you decide to do, keep it simple, and make sure that you measure a lot before commiting to start the project. I have done several my self, and just finish a 7 string, but I'm not making the necks yet, and an 8 string is not an easy fix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CudBucket Posted February 28, 2005 Report Share Posted February 28, 2005 I'm with RGGR on this. I'm all for being ambitious but only when you've got most of the answers already and a certain confidence about the project. That doesn't seem to be the case here. If you have any trepidation about building a neck, don't start with an 8 string. Good luck though! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ibanezrocker61 Posted March 1, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 1, 2005 (edited) I have built bodies from scratch not necks, which is why I AM doing my 'homework' for this project, like I said sometime before, you have to start somewhere, I'm not just going to start and just work from there, this is why I am posting, so I can get some answers... I understand when you say not to start with an 8-string, but I already have more than enough 6-strings, AND 7-strings.. and my dream guitar now is an 8-string, since I can't afford an LGM or anything, I figured I'd build my own... but like I said, I'm doing my homework and making sure I will have everything I need and I have all the measurements etc... This is impossible and hey, this could turn out to be successful (which I hope for), I'm keeping this positive, NOT negative... I want to be motivated to make this thing as high quality and professional looking as I can. I just don't want to be discouraged, but I really do appreciate the support and suggestions, just keep them coming!! Edited March 1, 2005 by ibanezrocker61 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fryovanni Posted March 1, 2005 Report Share Posted March 1, 2005 Point taken dude. I don't want to take the wind out of your sails. I just wanted to point out some issues that you would need to be aware of. In reading some of the ideas you had I was getting a real shaky feeling. ------------------ So how can I help? Going through the messages to this point. I know you want 28" scale length, 30 frets. It will be neck-thru. A fixed Hip Shot 8 string bridge (no neck angle, I should double check that though). 13 degree headstock? Single double acting truss rod (LMI style or Hot Rod?), best length TBD? Adding two extra bars for a little extra stength (3/16 steel ALA Warmoth or 3/8x1/4 Carbon Fiber?)? Neck will be a combination of 3 or 5 piece laminate (wood type???)? Bound fretboard and body (wood or plastic???), body painted solid black. Ebony fretboard no inlay, chrome hardware and EMG Pups. Tell me if this is sounding close or if you are going a different direction with any of this. Have you got a clear plan for doing the neck-thru phase of the contruction? Or would it be helpful to maybe see how myself and others go about this? To me as long as I can draw it up in CAD and print my templates, this would be a piece of cake. If you don't have access to CAD lets talk and I may be able to help you to get some good templates put together. If you are having issues finding the wood you need, lets talk and maybe I can help out. Peace, Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RGGR Posted March 1, 2005 Report Share Posted March 1, 2005 I have built bodies from scratch not necks, which is why I AM doing my 'homework' for this project, like I said sometime before, you have to start somewhere, I'm not just going to start and just work from there, this is why I am posting, so I can get some answers... Seems you got your mind made up where you wanna go, you're simply not sure how to get there yet. Remember though that no one in this thread said you shouldn't build it. We were just pointing out some of the pit falls. * Neck-through design vs. bold-on. * Mahogany neck vs Maple/bubinga laminate * Mahogany vs. Alder body * Hipshot bridge vs. ??? * EMG vs. Lungren 8's * Building neck or buying one You said you have build guitar bodies in the past....so you're not a complete newbie.......this also strengthens my idea that going this route http://www.soulmateguitars.com/Necks.htm might be very wise solution for you. Best of both worlds so to say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bassisgreat Posted March 1, 2005 Report Share Posted March 1, 2005 (edited) I say go for it. Study, get your measurements and steps in place (TWICE) before you cut, and DO IT. The worst that will happen is that you will have an expensive learning experience (barring any physical injury... ) and you'll have a better idea of what to do next time. I see the value in going with the basics first, but as you said, you aren't building a basic guitar, and I'm not going to try to convince you to. Good luck with your project! EDIT: then again, I am also working on my first project, and as my user profile aptly suggests, I too am a "Newbie". But what I said above is simply a matter of learning curve. It's up to you how easy or difficult of a lesson you want to start (or should I say Strat ) with. Edited March 1, 2005 by Bassisgreat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ibanezrocker61 Posted March 2, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2005 Thanks for the support!! fryovanni, yes, you basically do have what I'm goin for down. Thanks!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fryovanni Posted March 5, 2005 Report Share Posted March 5, 2005 So you got temps (and can have full size drwgs printed), and CAD software. Have you picked out the laminate stock for the neck-thru section? It is super critical to get the pieces perfectly matched before you glue. After that the thru blank needs to be squared up. A square blank is the key to a all the critical cuts being spot on so spend the time now and you will thank yourself later. I can't wait to see some progress shots. Peace, Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Digideus Posted March 5, 2005 Report Share Posted March 5, 2005 if it helps.... Black machine Guitars speak to doug@blackmachine.co.uk for more details. His website shows the 30" 8 string prototype he has built with 2 truss rods. im sure he could point you in the right direction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammy Posted March 5, 2005 Report Share Posted March 5, 2005 Right...I suppose I better jump in here What kinda sound you looking to get from this instrument (apologies if you've mentioned it allready, but there's alot of posts so far) - I will warn you now the EMG 45DC is a BRIGHT pickup, if thats what you were considering using. My 8 has a scarf jointed "1 pc" maple neck, with a singe truss rod and a pair of carbon rods down the side - the neck is very strong with this construction method. If you have any other questions about this 8 string stuff drop me a PM and Ill try and help out. I know it was useful for me to talk to other 8 string players when I was considering having mine built. Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammy Posted March 5, 2005 Report Share Posted March 5, 2005 I found this picture of my 8's neck during construction, I have a few more, if theres anything else specific you want to see... neck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Digideus Posted March 5, 2005 Report Share Posted March 5, 2005 Nice do you get your woods from a UK source? I found a few local to me, but its nice to have a few options. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammy Posted March 5, 2005 Report Share Posted March 5, 2005 I didnt make my 8 myself, Jeremy at LGM guitars did (Canada). I didnt fancy taking on such a project... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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