The Pope Dies.

[Marzocchi705]

The Pope, John Paul II, died today. Im starting this thread as a mark of respect to the guy. I am in no way religious but i feel strangly upset at his death.

Heres an article at msn http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3305285/?GT1=6428 , please read it.

[thedoctor]

Vive le Papa! En vita, en morte!

[Maher]

im not religious, i just see him as an old man whos time had come, its sad but its the way the world go round. i do share one thing incommon with the pope, he and i are both hockey fans!

[MasterMinds]

Peace, not Pope.

Edited April 3, 2005 by MasterMinds

[Marzocchi705]

What do you mean, you edited your post as i posted.

Edited April 3, 2005 by Marzocchi705

[Devon Headen]

Me either, but I don't see what that has to do with the pope . We lost a good man today, but it was his time. He really hasn't done much in a few years anyway as far as I can tell.

Edit: MM edited his post so now mine makes little sense.

[rabjet]

Ok, this may be time for a little rant here - but this whole passing of John Paul the second is completely arseways...

Firstly, I would like to state that i'm not religious. However, having a great deal of respect for the man, and what he has accomplished (cite Eastern bloc transition), I must bring a few points to bear here.

The idiot media, and predominantly idiot world is mourning the pope's passing. These people seem not only bereft of intelligence, but even common sense.

A terminally ill man of 84 passed away. Surprise surprise.

God's emissary on earth(supposedly) after interminable suffering, passed into death, and by his own belief, the afterlife, and being the pope, probably straight through the pearly gates with a ViP pass. Not exactly what I would consider a tragedy, although the world seems to be mourning his death as though he was being sent to be tortured to death by weasels. Not so.

Would people please, please, please for God's sake (tee hee) stop treating this like a tragedy and feel the tiniest bit of envy for a man with so much achieved, so much given, and in his mind, up there living it up with the big guy himself....

My 2 cents, for what they're worth...

Edited one word out......Peace, Brian

Edited April 4, 2005 by Brian

[Devon Headen]

First off, you are breaking forum rules. Maybe you should read rules before clicking I agree.

Next off, people are mourning the passing of the man. He was a great man, and I don't think anyone's sad for him, mourning is always a bit of a selfish thing in my opinion. It's only natural that when a person that has accomplished so much passes he will be missed. I feel like he was missed a long time before he was gone, though.

[sepultura999]

rabjet if your mom passes away at 85 with illness or old age or whatever, you're telling me you wouldn't be upset and mourn for her because you saw it coming?

The reason why people are upset is because he was a great leader who spoke out against communism, and was one of the first (if not only) to greet other religious leaders and apologize for the sins of the Roman Catholic church towards other religions. He also was one of the youngest popes and encouraged young children, hence why when he came to Toronto there were more teens there then any other age group. If you follow history, a lot of religious leaders didn't promote peace except amongst their own religion or people. Not to mention he uplifted many people's spirits by speaking, and i don't mean just by saying hello.

I do however think the media is going a little nuts. Two weeks ago it was more crap on the war in iraq, then terry schiavo, and now the pope and it goes to show how things can be easily forgotten, which is a shame. Today's story is Tomorrow's history, or something like that.

You may not think of it as being a tragedy, however it is a great loss and even I was upset because he was a great leader, and a lot of non-religious people respect him, as they do with many other leaders like desmond tutu, and the dali lama.

Your 2 cents is noted but seriously not worth anything, especially for a non-religious person to say "oh my God". Also keep in mind the man was shot and suffered parkinsons disease, so "torture chamber" may not be the right word, but in pain? probably.

masterminds: what are you talking about?

Edited April 4, 2005 by sepultura999

[erikbojerik]

Jesus wept just before he brought Lazarus back from the dead. One school of thought says that he wept because he had to bring Lazarus back from a glorious heaven to....this place....

So I agree with rabjet's sentiment, if not his style.

mainstream media

[Devon Headen]

I think everyone is happy that the pope has finally gotten to go home. If any human could ever deserve it, he would be at the top of the list. We're just mourning the passing of a great man. It was the same feeling I had at my grandfather's funeral (albeit not nearly as strong a feeling). I knew it was time for him to go, and was happy for him, but I still miss him.

Jesus wept just before he brought Lazarus back from the dead. One school of thought says that he wept because he had to bring Lazarus back from a glorious heaven to....this place....

Since when does God (again, not looking for theology debates) have to do anything? I'm not pretending to know the answer to why Jesus brought Lazarus back, but I seriously doubt it was just because he felt obligated to. In my opinion I think he wept because Lazarus was a friend and he died. That's hard for anybody.

[westhemann]

the great will always be mourned simply because they are no longer here to do the great things that made us love them

[skibum5545]

I was going to say something, but then Wes said it better than I could hope to. Instead, I offer this correctly capitalized and punctuated version:

The great will always be mourned simply because they are no longer here to do the great things that made us love them.

[rabjet]

Firstly, I would like to apologise - I included a subsequently edited piece of text, which was genuinely offensive and unintentional. Apologies all.

Secondly though, I would like to clarify...my little rant (in an ill advised tone) was more of a rant against the mainstream media and public perception, as opposed to the pope.

Alice Miles wrote in the Guardian recently about the Ken Bigley situation - people openly and publicly airing their "grief" at Mr. Bigley's death. I must voice now a slightly less inflammatory opinion about this.

The death of Ken Bigley recieved as much media coverage as the Tsunami in south east asia. people publicly grieve individuals (great and small) that they have no personal connection with. (I would like to exclude the pope from this - any religious individual could share a personal connection with him).

The same went for the funeral of princess Diana. I, personally, loved the icon, the beauty and the person of Diana, but her death, while tragic, did not cause grieving in the direct sense many individuals claim. Alice Miles went on to describe the British and Irish public mentalities as 'unreservedly and unashamedly emotive', which, subsequently explained, meant that personal tragedy no longer held in itself the meaning of the word. People would openly weep at the death of Diana, Ken Bigley, and the pope, but psychologically would not shed a tear for a close relative.

I have studied this in University (anthropology), and have genuinely strong feelings on this, as I personally know individuals whodid weep for Diana, but upon the death of their relatives, were callously stoic.

The comments Sepultura999 took literally, were not the intended tone of my piece - the "for God's sake" was ironic, not literal. I apologise, Sepultura, I was in no way clear, but in no way, do I feel I disrespected John Paul II, quite the contrary. I just have difficulty with not only the media perception of events (which is blatantly spun and weaved to create maximum media coverage, and therefore revenue from advertising), but also the general public reaction.

Hopefully this will serve to transform me from a heartless, cruelly dispassionate axxxxxx, into a slightly less aggressive, considerate axxxxxx.

Anyway, my deepest sympathies to anyone who has been genuinely affected by the great man's passing.

Regards,

RabjET

ps - I rather like the way in which skibum5545 put it. Respect.

EDIT: Removed/altered offensive words; BP

Edited April 4, 2005 by bluespresence

[Marzocchi705]

Some people do not understand why i feel the way i do about the popes death, as i am not a catholic. I tryed to make them see it in an other way, say if Mr. Satriani died, we would feel quite upset as his music made us happy when we listend to it, I personly look up to him, not as an idol, but as a place i would like to go, to have his skill and what not. The pope did alot for the world, some of witch i wasnt even born to read about at the time, and i think that is something we should all aspire to do, do something that helps the world, im pretty sure most of us here would try and do it through music. Even if myusic only connects to a few people and makes them happy, thats fine with me.

Thats probibly made no sense to anyone but meh, i tryed.

[RGGR]

In Holland "we" threw rocks at him when he showed up 25 years ago.

The Dutch had no use for his conservative views on women rights, abortion, euthanasia, and homosexuality.... His ideas about condom use in Africa didn't go over very well either, with almost half a continent dying of Aids.

The Pope died, long live the new pope!!!

Any white smoke yet.

Edited April 4, 2005 by RGGR

[mledbetter]

oh boy.. what a can of worms.

As a protestant.. I have no beliefs in the pope as anything other than a highly revered religious figure. God is God and people are people. We don't really believe in specially ordained saints and such as the catholic faith does. I feel sorry for all who loved him and don't want anyone to suffer, but obviously he is in a better place so the mourning is for OUR loss.. not his.

Jesus wept in the passage about lazarus out of his own sadness and sharing int he pain that was felt.

When someone dies, the world mourns. And in someone so controversial as the Pope, some mourn, some rejoice.. Here in america, most of us could care less one way or the other. In other parts of the world, as RGGR mentioned.. there are strong feelings against the Pope for various reasons. But in many parts of the world, the catholic church is still seen as an oppressor of human rights.

I hope those who mourn will do so and be of support to each other and not get drawn into arguments or debates about the controversial stuff. The struggle has been going on for centuries and will no doubt remain for many more.

So in that vein, I offer peace and blessings to those who are saddened, as well as to those who are angered.

[erikbojerik]

Jesus wept in the passage about lazarus out of his own sadness and sharing int he pain that was felt. 

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That indeed is the standard intepretation; no doubt he was saddened. But by the time he got to Bethany, he had already known for several days that Lazarus was dead.

Meh...who can know the mind of God?

Best of luck to the new pope.

[MasterMinds]

Sorry but someone who says that homosexuals are "beasts" and are part of an "era of evil" signalling the third coming of the antichrist, is a hate-monger and I'm glad he's no longer on this planet. The pope has published books of direct hate towards non-believers, homosexuals, africans, jews, muslims, woman, and many other groups all his life. He has funded the enforcement of his religion into impoverished countries - by making starving people go to church in order to recieve food and medical treatement. This is not the kind of person who should live.

http://www.whosoever.org/v5i4/offense.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4288103.stm

Edited April 4, 2005 by MasterMinds

[mledbetter]

Sorry but someone who says that homosexuals are "beasts" and are part of an "era of evil" signalling the third coming of the antichrist, is a hate-monger and I'm glad he's no longer on this planet. The pope has published books of direct hate towards non-believers, homosexuals, africans, jews, muslims, woman, and many other groups all his life. He has funded the enforcement of his religion into impoverished countries - by making starving people go to church in order to recieve food and medical treatement. This is not the kind of person who should live.

http://www.whosoever.org/v5i4/offense.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4288103.stm

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or you could just dive right in and try to piss people off.. Now is not the time nor the place..

[sepultura999]

masterminds, you have to understand that he belongs to a faith that ever since day 1 has always surpressed homosexuals, because it's a sin in the Catholic faith. If it's a sin in his faith, it's considered evil in the faith.

"signalling the third coming of the antichrist"

okay there Nostradamus.

"He has funded the enforcement of his religion into impoverished countries - by making starving people go to church in order to recieve food and medical treatement."

just like many other religions and political systems have done in the past hundred years. I don't think he made people do it, I think the churches told the people that if they came in they'd recieve food and medical treatment, but i could be wrong.

I don't get how that article from the BBC is racist. If you study history, Hitler was put in power Democraticaly and the Pope is saying that you have to be careful who you elect as your leader and that Catholics should review the laws of God when looking for a new leader, instead of the charisma and character one has.

"The Pope writes that both abortion and the mass murder of six million Jews came about as a result of people usurping the "law of God" beneath the guise of democracy."

now correct me here if i am wrong, but what he is saying here is that abortion and the mass murder of people from the nazis happened because people put democracy first and the laws of God second. Remember he is speaking to Catholics, so if you're anything but a Catholic, look elsewhere.

"Sorry but someone who says that homosexuals are "beasts" and are part of an "era of evil"...is a hate-monger and I'm glad he's no longer on this planet."

Remeber that the next time you say "YO DUDE THAZ SO GAY".

He may have in your eyes showed hate but what he is doing is preserving the catholic faith from the roots it came from. Also i don't think he'd show hate towards ethnic groups and then do a worldwide tour to appologize for the Roman Catholic Church's sins. If you don't like the catholic faith and all that, that is fine. I'm not a Catholic, nor do I belong to any faith as of right now. However if you're going to just say he's evil because he's living up to what his faith has been talking about and believing for the last 1000 years, then i think you need to get a new argument to stand by to be honest.

if i broke any rules or offended anyone, my appologies. When it comes to these things it's really hard to keep things simple, clean, and respectful.

Peace

[Devon Headen]

sepultura, I thought that was probably one of the most balanced posts here. Much more calm than I could hope to be dealing with someone like MM. That was completely inflamatory, and a pointless post. I'm not Catholic, but I'm a christian. I don't think the pope was anything more than a man, but he was a GOOD man. I'd be willing to bet you that the article written about homosexual took those quotes completely out of context. I can go to a pro-hitler site and find hundreds of articles praising the man and back them up with two word quotes filled in with the authors comments. I personally think homesexuality is a sin. Does that make me hate homosexuals? By no means! I have homosexual friends. They know that I think what they're doing is wrong, and we agree to disagree. It's no worse than any other sin. I also have a friend that's a chronic liar. I don't judge people based on their faults, I just encourage them to do better. The link between a dysfunctional family and homosexuality is far too strong in my opinion for anyone to argue that you are born gay. Maybe you are born with a weakness in that area, but everyone has weaknesses. How do you explain away people that have learned to be happy heterosexuals? I'm not going to lose respect for someone just because they're homosexual, but I do lose respect for people that say inflamatory things about people that I know are good people with no credible proof to back it up. Now I've gone and said a lot more than I was planning on saying, though.

I also believe abortion is murder. Just put yourself in the pope's shoes. If you firmly believed abortion is murder, what makes the Holocaust any worse? Have you seen what they do in partial birth abortions? If you think that life starts at conception, that is an especially disturbing act of murder. When do you think a baby becomes a person?

[westhemann]

Sorry but someone who says that homosexuals are "beasts" and are part of an "era of evil" signalling the third coming of the antichrist, is a hate-monger and I'm glad he's no longer on this planet. The pope has published books of direct hate towards non-believers, homosexuals, africans, jews, muslims, woman, and many other groups all his life. He has funded the enforcement of his religion into impoverished countries - by making starving people go to church in order to recieve food and medical treatement. This is not the kind of person who should live.

so to be a great man you have to be "enlightened" about every single subject?

i really don't think so.every great person in history has had AT LEAST one major flaw or shortcoming which hypocritical people could latch on to.

take yourself for example MM.

you are very intolerant of others with different opinions than yours,and you hypocritically flaunt that intolerance AT THE SAME TIME that you claim the pope was evil because of his intolerance in some areas.

and please...inviting people to church for food is evil?i don't think so.

if you invite a person to dinner at your house,do you not discuss opinions?let's take an extreme example....

your friend beats his wife....do you tolerate that in your friend and let it go as his "belief,or do you try your damndest to help the man by explaining to him why it is wrong?

that is all the church does.they believe they are helping,not interfering.

i personally do not go to church.i have my own spirituality and a set of morals based on what i believe an intelligent deity would have as his own set of morals....too bad that i am only human,and don't have the strength to ALWAYS follow my own morals.but i do the best i can.

and if i meet a person who does not have the same beliefs as me,i must admit i try to sway them my way.

and that is exactly the same thing you are doing with your posts in this topic.

and it is also exactly the same thing the pope did.

but maybe you are just jealous that he commanded a larger audience than you.

[Marzocchi705]

I for one ddo not think that abortion is wrong, if you are not ready to bring up a child why try, you COULD do alot more harm than good, but on the other hand you COULD be the most wonderful parent in the world. Its all what ifs and mabys.

What is that link between disfunctional familys and homosexuality you talked about in your post, do you have any articles i can read on it? Or can you explane it for me here. I dont beleve homosexuality is a sin, but i know many people who do.

[westhemann]

I for one ddo not think that abortion is wrong, if you are not ready to bring up a child why try, you COULD do alot more harm than good, but on the other hand you COULD be the most wonderful parent in the world. Its all what ifs and mabys.

i think the church's point of view is that if you are not having premarital sex,you will not need an abortion.

but i am a big fan of premarital sex.i see nothing wrong with it,if steps are taken to avoid just such a problem.

but then again...i am not the pope.