Levelling Frets?

[GuitarMaestro]

Hi!

I still wonder what the best way for levelling frets is. I usually level the frets with a neck that is adjusted to be perfectly flat. However when setting up a guitar the neck is supposed to have a "slight" curve and not be perfectly flat. Additionally the neck might bend a little uneven after strings are installed. Wouldn't it improve the action even more if you would level the frets in that "final" position somehow? How do the pro's do it? Do they just set the neck as straight/flat as possible and then level the frets to be perfectly even in height? Or are there some tricks involved like making some frets a tad lower/higher to somehow increase playing comfort or account for the final state of the strung up neck?

I mean if the aim is just to level and recrown the frets to be perfectly uniform in height why are perfect fret jobs always discussed as beeing so complex and hard to master? And all this talk about magic involved and years of expirience? Perfectly leveling a surface is something most metal-workers learn in the beginning of their education and is more or less a matter of patience.

[westhemann]

my beast i just finished had perfect frets without leveling...but the board was perfect and the slots were clean,the frets are ss and i pressed them in.

but if i have to level them,the neck must be straight..and there is more to a fret job than just the leveling and crowning...you need to also get the bevel on the sides right and round the ends off so they feel nice under your hands...and finally,you have to polish the heck out of those little mother f-ers and make them slick as snot so your guitar will play like butter

[GuitarMaestro]

I know there is more to a fret job than just the levelling/crowning, as you know I already built necks myself. But there is alot of talk and rumours surrounding the process. Moser for example claims that he did 100+ fret jobs before being able to do it well. For me it always worked easily so I wonder if there is something more to it, I don't know of.

P.s.: The beast looks very nice so far....congrats!

[westhemann]

the beast is finished...the topic is updated.

but maybe by "well" he means a perfect job quickly and easily...

i don't know...i seem to have gotten the hang of it

[82DeanZ]

You know, I've been wondering about this lately as well. It's also unclear to me how leveling frets using this thing helps:

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Fretting_suppl...e_Neck_Jig.html

My only guess is that leveling under tensions might account for any twist created under tension. As you point out, you are going to add a slight bow in the neck upon setup. I've done 3 fret levels and had good success doing it just like you. That is, get the neck as staight as possible and then level. I do take a couple of extra passes on the upper frets to impart a bit of a drop near the tongue end. I hope one of the senior members here can enlighten us.

Best Regards,

Mike.

[Mr Alex]

In my opinion, the diffucultyof fret levelling is one of those common misconceptions that continues because a newb tells a newb who tells a newb etc etc etc... and it probably leads back to some repair man who trying to make a buck, told all his customers that it is too diffucult for them to do it themselves. Just like making a neck.

Edited June 27, 2005 by Mr Alex

[GuitarMaestro]

That neck jig is interesting. It simulates exactly what I suspected the pro's do: Levelling the frets when the neck is in it's strung up state. Maybe this is necessary because the neck bends and twists unevenly under string pressure?

[frank falbo]

That's exactly the idea. To level the frets so it's straight under tension. You could have a perfect board/fret surface, but when you string up the guitar, strong and weak spots within a neck prevent it from pulling into perfect relief. Most of the compensation is for hot and dead zones in the truss rod. In other words, you could string the neck up, and get your bow. Then when you adjust the rod, you find that the bow comes out very well from frets 1-9, but there's still some bow between frets 10-20, mainly surrounding where the neck meets the body. That's where it gets thicker, and the truss rod has less effect, even if it goes down that far. So now you have a straight neck that appears to play like it has a ramp up at the end. That's why we sometimes do the "fall off" at the end. It's more noticable unstrung. But under tension it ends up straightening out with the rest of the neck.

Wes, your guitar may be perfect for 100 years. But a new build, especially one by a competent builder, is less relevant to the plight of factory guitars that are in use already. Your situation is common to good new builds. What you might find is that over time some parts of that neck pull differently than others. You might find a year or two of tension has a slight bending effect near the neck joint. Most factory guitars have minor dips and humps all over the place once they've been played in.

Leveling without tension gets you 90% to perfection anyway, so there's legitimate debate to the necessity of a neck jig. I don't use one, instead I rely on instinct and experience (much cheaper than the neck jig, perhaps less reliable) to compensate for what I see when I read the neck under tension. So I learn what the neck is like, de-string (and perhaps release the truss rod a little) and then level away. I also add some tricks that the neck jig is useless for. Regardless whether the neck is compound radius, I apply a slight compounding to the upper frets. There's a typical "high traffic" guitar solo area, from the 12th fret up. I put in a slight flattening, from between the G and B string 12th fret, fanning out to the full width at the last fret. This cleans up the solo bends tremendously without altering the feel. I do it to the fretboard if I'm refretting, but it works really well on frets alone. Sometimes I end up taking a slight bit more off the first fret, depending on where the truss rod starts working. Sometimes you can get a neck perfect but the first fret still has a little upward curve to it. To try to get that straight, you'd put a hump in frets 2-6.

If you decide it's all voodoo, then don't worry about it. There's a lot of snobbery in the fret world. I like to think I have the knowledge, but without the snobbery. But then I think, does that statement alone mean that I DO have the snobbery? Then I get all self consious

So maybe I've listed some of the "mysteries" of the "pro" fret level, but at the same time, with a little instruction a newb can do a great fret level. My first level came before high school and it was fine.

[82DeanZ]

Wow, great answer Frank! You were one of the "senior members" I was thinking of and you came through in spades. Thank you very much. So I won't worry too much about buying that expensive jig and just keep practicing as before. Good stuff.

Best Regards,

Mike.

[Guitarfrenzy]

We'll true enough you don't have to use a neck jig, but using a neck jig will let you level under simulated string tension, which can only give you a more accurate fret job. Some necks don't give you problems, but others will make you wish you'd used a neck jig in the first place. Especially when you've done all the hard work only to find out that with the strings on, your straightedge shows you what you feared most, it's not level now. So why chance it? I mean, the neck jig isn't something hard to build anyway, and won't cost you a lot of money. The benefits outweights the cost big time. I've had good results without using it, but had really excellent result with using it. Some of the lowest action known to man I tell you! lol.. Even when using the neck jig you should use a slight fall away on the upper frets for better action. I have instructions on building your own neck jig like Stew Mac sells if you haven't seen it before. Here's the link.

Build A Neck Jig

[GuitarMaestro]

Great answer Frank!!!! And great tutorial by Frenzy! Exactly what I wanted to know....this place always surprises me. The knowledge in here is simply awesome!

Thanks alot!

[daveq]

I'm wondering if anyone knows how accurate the fret levelling needs to be (what the tolerance is for reducing buzzing)?

One reason for this question is the process of crowning and polishing. If I needed to take off a decent amount of fret wire (say, frets 3 to 6) and by result, needed to do some significant crowning in that area as opposed to the other frets which might need less crowning work - would the crowning result in lowering the frets even more?

I guess what I'm trying to ask is - once you have sanded the frets level and you do need to do some significant crowning, will that result in additional error since each crowning could end up taking a tiny bit more fret wire away? Or is that usually not worth worrying about?

When I do my crowning, I try to stop just when I notice the sanding marks changing direction on the top of the fret (trying not to go deeper than the levelling) - but during the finer sanding and polishing, there will always be some material taken away. I'm just wondering how much that affects the levelling?

I should also mention that it is very rare that I need to do much levelling/crowning since I build new (no repairs) but I did have one neck that gave me a lot of trouble and I was wondering if my crowning was throwing off the levelling.

[thedoctor]

Well, I HATE fret work, after the fact, and that is because I do not have control over who says it is "good enough" or "done well". I can level and bevel and crown and radius and polish and blah, blah, blah for myself. (BTW, I just put in my first set of SS frets and they RULE!) When you got a person with something they want to be done, fretwise, actionwise, VINTAGE SOUND-wise or whatever, fretwork is at the top of the list that I advise people to stay away from. Offer too many options and you will be asked to do too many things. Say you can make it sound just like Van Morrison's Epi and you may as well go get drunk for a year. Fretwork for yourself is not a huge problem (I hate it) but to do it to make someone else happy is a Martha Stewart. Is she out of her ankle monitor, yet? I SO want to buy that ankle bracelet!!

[frank falbo]

We'll true enough you don't have to use a neck jig, but using a neck jig will let you level under simulated string tension, which can only give you a more accurate fret job.

I agree. For me personally, I honed my skills for years without one, so I never made the switch. But I'm in full support of the neck jig method, and I can't tell if my first post made that clear. Maybe with your tutorial I'll make one finally.

Daveq-You should be stopping before you kiss the top of the frets. Then do the final fine sanding, which I do with a dead flat block. As for height tolerances, it all depends on the player, their style, their expectations, and limitations brought on by the neck itself. If it's a great neck that stays straight under tension, slight differentials are less noticable. If it's bumpy under tensions, then minor fret differences can be magnified. Which brings you back to the neck jig, which controls that.

I love doing fretwork for close clients, friends, and myself. But I agree with the doctor that more often than not, it isn't rewarding doing it for "off the street" clients. They usually expect too much. I can't fix poor playing technique with a fret job.

[daveq]

So, stop just before I see the levelling marks go away? (let the final sanding / polishing do that part?)

Thanks for the info (if I understand it correctly).

[Sparky]

Looks like you have it figured out.

I just finished making my neck jig...I have a habit of overbuilding some things and this is no exception. Instead of a 2x4, its a 2"x4" piece of square tubing (aluminum) and I had some spare 3/8" threaded rod instead of 1/4-20. Most of it was free, so I can't complain..

I could level the frets on a redwood with this thing. I'll try to post pictures later, it looks rediculous.

[brian d]

So, stop just before I see the levelling marks go away? (let the final sanding / polishing do that part?)

Thanks for the info (if I understand it correctly).

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[82DeanZ]

The way I've been taught to do it is to mark the top of each fret with permanent marker after levelling. Then when crowning stop while you still have a thin, even line of marker left at the top of the fret. That way you know you haven't changed the level on any of the frets.

[Guitarfrenzy]

We'll true enough you don't have to use a neck jig, but using a neck jig will let you level under simulated string tension, which can only give you a more accurate fret job.

I agree. For me personally, I honed my skills for years without one, so I never made the switch. But I'm in full support of the neck jig method, and I can't tell if my first post made that clear. Maybe with your tutorial I'll make one finally.

Daveq-You should be stopping before you kiss the top of the frets. Then do the final fine sanding, which I do with a dead flat block. As for height tolerances, it all depends on the player, their style, their expectations, and limitations brought on by the neck itself. If it's a great neck that stays straight under tension, slight differentials are less noticable. If it's bumpy under tensions, then minor fret differences can be magnified. Which brings you back to the neck jig, which controls that.

I love doing fretwork for close clients, friends, and myself. But I agree with the doctor that more often than not, it isn't rewarding doing it for "off the street" clients. They usually expect too much. I can't fix poor playing technique with a fret job.

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No, I didn't think you was blasting the neck jig, in fact I understood what you was saying about getting a method down and still using it, because it works for you. I total respect that, but many on the site lack this because they haven't done enough fret jobs to know. I was only trying to clear up some peoples misconceptions about the neck jig and was stating that in my experience using a neck jig is definitely worth doing. It just makes you that much more accurate with the fret job, and eliminates the problems you have with leveling a neck when it's tension free. Like you said, if you have the skills and knowledge to work around the problems like you do, then it's not a problem, but the average joe would have done a better job using the neck jig. But don't get me wrong, the neck jig is only as good as the person using it, it's not magic by no means.