ByronBlack Posted August 5, 2005 Report Share Posted August 5, 2005 How valuable to building guitars would a jointer/planer and thicknesser be? I intend to make a fairly substantial number of guitars in the near future, would these machines be worth the money, or I can get by with normal hand planes, I know they add speed and quickness to a job, but are they as essential as say a band/scroll saw? I just want to get some opinions, as i've been offered a budget setup of those two machines for around £200 - if they aren't essential, then I would put the money towards a better bandsaw.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egdeltar Posted August 5, 2005 Report Share Posted August 5, 2005 For me a jointer was a necessity. I was not having very good results with hand planes. I was lucky to find this really nice 8" jointer that was practically brand new for $450. Seriously, for me, I couldn’t even function without it. Trues up neck and body blanks in minutes, instead of the hours it would take me to get a mediocre plained edge with a hand plain. Im sure some people will say different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted August 5, 2005 Report Share Posted August 5, 2005 I'd agree with the last statement. I mostly build furniture and have for a pretty long time. I was trained with mostly hand tools and can joint an edge with a hand plane, and on a good day it is cleaner than a jointer. I picked up my first hand plane in 1964, and it took me a couple of years to get any good with it. Most of the time I use an 8" Powermatic jointer. It's lots faster and does a suberb job even on a bad day, which I have more and more frequently these days it seems. You can thickness the sized boards that we use here with a router jig and save the bucks for something else. I think Setch has posted plans for one in the past. The little Wagner Saf-t-plane will do most of the stuff that's done around here if you have a decent drill press. If you really want to go to a power thicknesser, I'd say save your money and get a drum sander first. They're slower than a planer but produce less tearout with figured wood. I have both in the shop and use the planer to get within 1/8" or so and then run it through the sander. There are plans for building your own drum sander out there. Fine Woodworking has run a couple of different ones in the past and has ads for kits. What I'd do ? Buy your self a good 6" or better jointer first. It's the hardest part to fake. Get a sander next. Get the planer last. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fryovanni Posted August 5, 2005 Report Share Posted August 5, 2005 The tools will greatly improve speed. I would think it would be a good idea to figure out how and what you plan to build (in quantity) before you start buying. I think a lot of people would think a thickness sander is very important, but drum or belt. Drum works well but has no where near the capacity of a belt (of course belt costs a lot more). 14" bandsaw with riser block or a larger model with more power, it will greatly depend on volume and what you need it to do. Jointer 4", 6",8", again application and $$$. I would talk to Jeremy on this subject. He has invested in tools for his production. He can give you some perspective based on experience. Most builders around here don't build in volume, but the ones that do will be your best source. Peace, Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erikbojerik Posted August 5, 2005 Report Share Posted August 5, 2005 Jointer-planer-bandsaw...I'd say the 3 most important "big" tools for building (besides your head & your hands). A jointer was the first power tool I bought (I already had access to a 14" bandsaw). No regrets at all. A thickness planer was second. If you plan to build a lot of guitars, you'll get better deals on raw wood if you can find a local supplier who sells it "in the rough", not planed down, stuff that you can hold in your hands before you buy. If you have access to one or more such dealers, then a thickness planer is a good investment. I do, and I have one. If I have tearout (rarely, I change my knives very often) then I'll bust out the random orbital sander and have at it. A bandsaw is also a must. Again, if you will build a lot of guitars and use figured wood tops, you can save money over the long haul by resawing your own tops. In that case, you'll need a big bandsaw with at least 7" cutting height capacity. If not, a smaller one will do. Now...keep it realistic! Lots of people buy expensive exercise equipment with all the good intentions in the world, then lose steam and end up using them to hang clothes on. Be realistic about how many guitars you'll actually build over the next 5 years or so, and price out these three tools. Then make the smart decision one way or the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhoads56 Posted August 5, 2005 Report Share Posted August 5, 2005 I think you should worry more about finishing off number one, before you start looking at spending countless dollars (when you have indicated in another thread that you have a limited budget) on machinery you may not need, because you have bored of the idea of building guitars. But hey, im just some dude who sees probably a hundred people a year start building a guitar (cause i supply their parts), yet only a handful get finished... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ByronBlack Posted August 5, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 5, 2005 I appreciate and understand your sentiment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamesj Posted August 5, 2005 Report Share Posted August 5, 2005 Perry, I think you are being a bit harsh and rather understimate my own intellect. As you know I have a small budget, and the jointer/planer deal that I mentioned at the beginning of the thread was only £200 - this is my entire 'big' tool budget, so it's not like i'm spending mega-bucks before getting bored of building guitars. I'm simply gathering opinion on the most useful tools, as at the moment I have some money to use for tools, and wish to spend it in the right way. Hence my previous post on scroll saw/bandsaws. I don't want to buy something that in the long-run the money would have been better spent else-where. But on the other hand I appreciate and understand your sentiment. ← I have a planer, a delta 12", its not big enough for most one piece bodies, 2 Piece yes and its great. as for the jointer some people swear by them, I just use the table saw with a jig I made to get my glue joints. I am currently gathering parts to make a thickness sander, I figure a hundred bucks in parts maybe. I'm also designing a homemade oscillating sander. but thats after I finish my "folding" table saw extention/router table combination. I may design it to drop in the router slot on the extention. I have figured out there is no need to buya tool when you can make it cheaper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M_A_T_T Posted August 5, 2005 Report Share Posted August 5, 2005 I don't want to buy something that in the long-run the money would have been better spent else-where. Then in regards to your other thread, definately buy a bandsaw. Jointers are very useful. I'd take a thickness sander over a thickness planer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted August 5, 2005 Report Share Posted August 5, 2005 thickness sanders are more expensive and tougher to get to make a truly flat surface.... doesn't the sandpaper tend to round over the edges? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M_A_T_T Posted August 5, 2005 Report Share Posted August 5, 2005 I haven't noticed the edges being rounded over with my drum-type thickness sander, I have noticed it when I used a wide-belt thickness sander, though. The cantilever kind are probably tougher to get truly flat, however, thickness sanders are the tool you want if you are thicknessing figured woods. Also, the drum-type thickness sanders actually aren't necessarily more expensive: 16" thickness planer 16/32" thickness sander Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted August 5, 2005 Report Share Posted August 5, 2005 thanks for the info..i was unaware of the drum type...obviously that is a good tool for the job. BUT i can get a 13" thickness planer for about $350 which will do the job...you just have to thickness before you join the body if it is larger than 13" $1200 seems a bit cost prohibitive Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n8rofwyo Posted August 6, 2005 Report Share Posted August 6, 2005 I agree with Wes on this one, that does seem a little steep to begin with. I too own a thickness planer, and I think it is a pretty decent addition to the shop. However, it does have problems with figured woods and to counteract that I am forced to spray the wood with water to keep tear out to a minimum. Even doing that, I have to take very small cuts to keep from destroying the piece. I have been using hand planes for 1 year now and am nearly to the point that I can plane a 36" X 36" table top without leaving ridges or cups in the surface ( 5 ridges and 2 cups on the last try). With that being said, it takes me nearly as long to machine plane figured wood as to hand plane it. I don't have any experience with the thickness sanders, though. I do think a jointer is a must. Good Luck. Nate Robinson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted August 6, 2005 Report Share Posted August 6, 2005 i am learning how to properly use my benchtop jointer...it is nice,but is no substitute for a thickness planer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GodBlessTexas Posted August 6, 2005 Report Share Posted August 6, 2005 as for the jointer some people swear by them, I just use the table saw with a jig I made to get my glue joints. What blade are you using? One of the Diablo style blades with the stabilizing cuts or one of those blades with the brass inserts to stabilize? I'm sure you know that if your blade has any play at all you're going to get a less than flat joint surface out of a table saw, so with that said I'd love to see your jig. Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fryovanni Posted August 6, 2005 Report Share Posted August 6, 2005 Thickness sanders are very nice. Great for figured wood. I can prepair very thin laminates for necks and bodys,binding and so on. Planer is not a good choice for thin applications .1" and thinner. Planers remove material much faster if you need to remove a lot of material, with a thickness sander and 36 grit you can remove a lot of material (it is just a pain). Both have advantages. A thickness sander can take blanks and tops down to 220 grit which is a nice. I think several guys are using the Jet 16-32 (around a grand). So many good tools so little space and money. Peace,Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M_A_T_T Posted August 6, 2005 Report Share Posted August 6, 2005 as for the jointer some people swear by them, I just use the table saw with a jig I made to get my glue joints. What blade are you using? One of the Diablo style blades with the stabilizing cuts or one of those blades with the brass inserts to stabilize? I'm sure you know that if your blade has any play at all you're going to get a less than flat joint surface out of a table saw, so with that said I'd love to see your jig. Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas... ← Jointers don't just joint egdes, they are used to prepare a face of the board (square to an egde) to make thicknessing easier. On larger jointers you can also cut rabets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamesj Posted August 6, 2005 Report Share Posted August 6, 2005 as for the jointer some people swear by them, I just use the table saw with a jig I made to get my glue joints. What blade are you using? One of the Diablo style blades with the stabilizing cuts or one of those blades with the brass inserts to stabilize? I'm sure you know that if your blade has any play at all you're going to get a less than flat joint surface out of a table saw, so with that said I'd love to see your jig. Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas... ← I'll get some pics of it for you, as for the blade its a dewalt fine finish blade, time for a new one though....its a couple years old! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamesj Posted August 6, 2005 Report Share Posted August 6, 2005 as for the jointer some people swear by them, I just use the table saw with a jig I made to get my glue joints. What blade are you using? One of the Diablo style blades with the stabilizing cuts or one of those blades with the brass inserts to stabilize? I'm sure you know that if your blade has any play at all you're going to get a less than flat joint surface out of a table saw, so with that said I'd love to see your jig. Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas... ← Jointers don't just joint egdes, they are used to prepare a face of the board (square to an egde) to make thicknessing easier. On larger jointers you can also cut rabets. ← Agreed but the way I do it is: first I plane (in the middle of the planer no edges touching the sides) then move to the "cross cut slide jig" put both peices together in the middle (dead center so the blade cuts both peices) just like the book match, clamp them down and make the pass, since the are not touching the jig any where but the flat i just planed it squares the edge. Without a 300 + dollar tool. that 1 square edge allows me to square the rest if I even bother. Sometimes no need if your cutting out a design and just need the glue joint. funny thing I was reading a online wood magazine a while back (dont remember which) and a survey called "give up your power tools" was taken, Most wood workers said they would give up their jointer over any other tool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted August 6, 2005 Report Share Posted August 6, 2005 I'm surprized that they would punt the jointer first. I'd advise someone starting out to get the bandsaw first then the jointer then the planer or sander. I picked up a used 8" powermatic jointer for $500. It needed about $75 worth of parts and a half day of tweaking out. Grizzly sells a 14" bandsaw that is a decent tool for abaout $500 delivered with a setup riser. Performax runs specials on the 16-32 sander for about $800, sometimes less. A 12' benchtop planer goes for less than $500. Rigid and Dewalt consistently take the prize in reviews. I have a Jet which has a lot of design problems, but does a geat job on even difficult wood less than 12" wide. You haven't told us how you are set up for routers. By the time it's said and done you may wind up with more in routers total than any one stationary tool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ByronBlack Posted August 6, 2005 Author Report Share Posted August 6, 2005 Thanks for the info Doc, unfortunatly all the units you mentioned aren't available to me as i'm in the UK, although i'm currently looking at three Bandsaws. (DeWalt, Draper and Perfom 12"units). I'm ok for routers at the moment, that was my first investment. I have a Ryobi router than can take 1/4, 23/8 and 1/2 inch bits, I have a number of essential bits, but there are probably a few more I could do with later down the line. I'm also building a table for it, so i'm all good for routers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nollock Posted August 6, 2005 Report Share Posted August 6, 2005 A planer / jointer & bandsaw would be first on my list. A thicknesser isn't that important imo. I got a cheap (£170) Perform thicknesser and cant rcomend it. There's a small amount of play in the cady which means it leaves a small step at the start and end of every piece of wood that goes through it. Alot of these cheep tools are all the same (probably chinese) and just rebranded anyway. I checked ebay and saw the same thicknesser under 3 differant names, and it was still cheaper at Axminster. Its fine for general work, as long as you arn't doing anything large, but any wood for guitars has to have the steps removed by the planer afterwards. And while it may be around 10" wide, it doesnt have a powerfull enough motor for 10" wood anyway. (except maybe balsa wood ) Ie, in my experience a cheap thicknesser aint much good for guitar work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted August 6, 2005 Report Share Posted August 6, 2005 There's a small amount of play in the cady which means it leaves a small step at the start and end of every piece of wood that goes through it. that is called snipe and it has more to do with the support table being too small for the size of the wood you are running through it. create a larger table area and that will not happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M_A_T_T Posted August 6, 2005 Report Share Posted August 6, 2005 There's a small amount of play in the cady which means it leaves a small step at the start and end of every piece of wood that goes through it. that is called snipe and it has more to do with the support table being too small for the size of the wood you are running through it. create a larger table area and that will not happen. ← You should be able to adjust the infeed & outfeed rollers to fix that, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nollock Posted August 6, 2005 Report Share Posted August 6, 2005 I'll try bigger support table and see if it helps. The cady definatly rocks when the end of the wood goes past the entry or exit roller. Ie. when goes from 1 roller to 2, or vice versa. I have tried wedging the cady solid which does help, but didnt fix it entirely. So it could be snipe & a less than solid cady. chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.