Lowest Action Ever

[GregP]

Once your action is sufficiently low, you have to have more expert control of your dynamics. If you accidentally nail a string, it'll buzz, even in a subtle way, against the other frets, thereby robbing the string's energy and killing sustain. It doesn't even have to be a prolonged buzzing, it just takes a few cycles of the string hitting a fret to take its sustain down a quantifiable amount.

I'm not entirely convinced that my newest guitar's action is high enough yet... when I tried it in the store, it had sustain for days... now not so much. I also might have borked the pickup height, though I've measured that again, too.

[DrummerDude]

Once your action is sufficiently low, you have to have more expert control of your dynamics. If you accidentally nail a string, it'll buzz, even in a subtle way, against the other frets, thereby robbing the string's energy and killing sustain. It doesn't even have to be a prolonged buzzing, it just takes a few cycles of the string hitting a fret to take its sustain down a quantifiable amount.

Thanks Greg, just what I thought - low action does not kill sustain.

It is bad playing and fret buzz that do.

[rhoads56]

Thanks Greg, just what I thought - low action does not kill sustain.

NO, a badly set up guitar with action that is too low, will kill sustain.

It is bad playing and fret buzz that do.

and/or bad setup technique.

What i call low, others call high. And visaversa.

You are looking for an answer that isnt there. Stop looking.

[fryovanni]

I posted the list because I had got the impression you had set up your Ibanez with good success(1.2mm would mean you had your leveling and set up technique down pretty well), and were looking for some ideas on how to improve your methods(which were already pretty good). When you ask your question about who makes a neck with the lowest without much tweaking it occured to me I had misunderstood your earlyier post. Any reasonably well made neck that is in good functional order can be leveled and set up well. Better quality construction and parts can improve how well it will hold the set up. All of these companies

ESPs? BC Rich'es? Jacksons?

have decent construction. The lower end models will not have the level of attension given to the set up you desire. Some music stores may do a quick set up to make sure they play pretty fair, but they will not spend much if any time(especially on a lower dollar guitar, they just can't).

Now what is still a little confusing is why are you buying another guitar(as you have an Ibanez)? Is this for you to practice your set up techniques on? If so before you go out and spend money on another guitar. Get your tools and measuring devices, and check out your settings on your Ibanez. Check it's relief, check it's clearance at the nut (as described in the tutorials). If you need to make a small adjustment to get the neck flat do so. Then see how flat the frets are. Check the frets at the body joint. Study what you have(it has to be pretty darn close if it has 1.2mm clear), and see if you can detect any slight adjustments that can get it spot on(SMALL adjustments). There is nothing wrong with what you have and if you hope to do better than 1.2mm you will have a better chance on a neck that is close to begin with. If you buy a new guitar you are going to have to take the same tests and make adjustments so why not just use what you have.

As far as killing sustain. There is a point of diminishing returns as you lower action. Lets be real a string needs some room to vibrate freely. You can play with a lighter touch and make the string will not vibrate as much. Of course you are doing two things- limiting your window of dynamics, and reducing energy. Now if you play very accurately and let the amp do more work you may have enough to work with. You can also adjust your pickups closer to be more sensative to the decreased string movement. This is perfectly cool if your skill permits, but mind you there is a point that you will run out of room. You also have to remember this is wood you are dealing with. It will move with moisture, and a neck will vibrate(this is normal movement). If you bring in the clearance extreamly tight you will have to deal with adjustments more often.

You know one time Perry pushed me to go look closer at a neck/strings/bridge and really look close at just what was going on. I am going to give you the same advise. Just set down and look really close at your stings and how they bend over the saddles, nut and what have you. Look at the clearance between the strings at different parts of the neck. Pluck a string and see how it vibrates in the middle of the neck, near the 1st fret and at the last. Just really look close, and don't worry about conclusions just look at what is happening. You may really take a lot of the mystery out of how the neck works.

Peace,Rich

[GregP]

I certainly wasn't meaning to say that a low action does not kill sustain. I'm a big believer in medium-low action. If I can't play the way I feel without fussing about whether or not I'm getting fret buzz, then I want nothing to do with that guitar.

I've never played a guitar with "very low" action that I was happy with at all. I cann't play the way I like to play, and although it might've just been psychosematic, I felt that the tone was sucked out of the guitar.

[westhemann]

i once had a jackson with ultra low action and zero fret buzz...it was one of thhose pro models...i think it was just a fluke that the neck was so straight...

but the strings were laid almost on top of the frets...i kept missing my bends though.

i hated that guitar and sold it soon after i bought it.nothing to do with the action...more the body style and balance

[DrummerDude]

I posted the list because I had got the impression you had set up your Ibanez with good success(1.2mm would mean you had your leveling and set up technique down pretty well), and were looking for some ideas on how to improve your methods(which were already pretty good). When you ask your question about who makes a neck with the lowest without much tweaking it occured to me I had misunderstood your earlyier post. Any reasonably well made neck that is in good functional order can be leveled and set up well. Better quality construction and parts can improve how well it will hold the set up. All of these companies

ESPs? BC Rich'es? Jacksons?

have decent construction. The lower end models will not have the level of attension given to the set up you desire. Some music stores may do a quick set up to make sure they play pretty fair, but they will not spend much if any time(especially on a lower dollar guitar, they just can't).

Now what is still a little confusing is why are you buying another guitar(as you have an Ibanez)? Is this for you to practice your set up techniques on? If so before you go out and spend money on another guitar. Get your tools and measuring devices, and check out your settings on your Ibanez. Check it's relief, check it's clearance at the nut (as described in the tutorials). If you need to make a small adjustment to get the neck flat do so. Then see how flat the frets are. Check the frets at the body joint. Study what you have(it has to be pretty darn close if it has 1.2mm clear), and see if you can detect any slight adjustments that can get it spot on(SMALL adjustments). There is nothing wrong with what you have and if you hope to do better than 1.2mm you will have a better chance on a neck that is close to begin with. If you buy a new guitar you are going to have to take the same tests and make adjustments so why not just use what you have.

As far as killing sustain. There is a point of diminishing returns as you lower action. Lets be real a string needs some room to vibrate freely. You can play with a lighter touch and make the string will not vibrate as much. Of course you are doing two things- limiting your window of dynamics, and reducing energy. Now if you play very accurately and let the amp do more work you may have enough to work with. You can also adjust your pickups closer to be more sensative to the decreased string movement. This is perfectly cool if your skill permits, but mind you there is a point that you will run out of room. You also have to remember this is wood you are dealing with. It will move with moisture, and a neck will vibrate(this is normal movement). If you bring in the clearance extreamly tight you will have to deal with adjustments more often.

You know one time Perry pushed me to go look closer at a neck/strings/bridge and really look close at just what was going on. I am going to give you the same advise. Just set down and look really close at your stings and how they bend over the saddles, nut and what have you. Look at the clearance between the strings at different parts of the neck. Pluck a string and see how it vibrates in the middle of the neck, near the 1st fret and at the last. Just really look close, and don't worry about conclusions just look at what is happening. You may really take a lot of the mystery out of how the neck works.

Peace,Rich

Thanks Rich, this is exactly the kind of information I was looking for.

Yes, at the moment I have my Ibanez set up pretty low.

But I need another guitar because I hate Ibanez and I curse the day n which I bought mine. Will sell the thing pretty soon.

The other reason is because I need even LOWER action than 1,2mm on the 12th fret.

I need 0.8mm on the 17th fret like on this guitar:

And last, but not least, I want to buy or, more likely, build a new axe that would be V-shaped. I just love Rhoads and King V's.

I am still considering the idea of building one rather than buying a factory guitar because trying to find the right factory made V-shaped model would take me quite some time and effort. Where I live, I don't have access to big music malls and I am not able to test different models in a row to judge on their action and quality. And I found that reading online user reviews is more confusing than helpful.

Thank you again for your thorough answer.

[soapbarstrat]

Nice going guys. ACME Medical Supply just packed and shipped a dozen straight-jackets. These are the 'Made in China' ones which tend to run a little small. OUCH!

Even I was once green about getting a guitar to play its best :

http://files.photojerk.com/soapbarstrat/gtrmagQandA.JPG

[fryovanni]

If you need that action. Then you are going to need one of two things to happen. Either you quit asking about tricks and tips and get the tools out and start working(there is no magic here, it just requires good tools(good does not mean store bought, just tools that get it done) and accuracy), or you can get in touch with an experienced professional that can do the work for you(get to know them well you will be in frequently for slight tweaks). Although I get a kick out of Soapbar slipping on the nutty tux. I am going to bet he is one of the best sources for helping you refine your methods(note; after you start working with the tools and need pointers). Just talking about this or chatting up random points is only going to muddy the water for you.

Peace and good luck,

Rich

[Guitarfrenzy]

Wow.. I can't believe I just read through this complete thread... lol

Send me a straight-jacket if there are any left... :

[DrummerDude]

Hi guys, I just put a video together (to make the things that are going in this thread even worse. )

The guy on that video is Alexi Laiho and he is using an absolutely ultra-freaking low action on his guitar - maybe 1 milimeter of action at the 24th fret (this is not a joke - check out the video).

I tried to give examples of harsh palm muted chugga chugga playing (some people clim it's not OK to do that on low action guitars), harsh string strumming, serious string bending (also a popular belief that you cannot string bend with low action) etc...

Watch the video to the end - it is in three sections with separate examples.

And here is the VIDEO

For those of you who are not familiar with YouTube - you just click on the link above and wait for the video to load in the small window on the page.

PS:

Alexi Laiho has a signature ESP that is being sold in the stores but I don't think I would spend such amount of money on one guitar (yeah, I'm cheap) AND I seriously doubt it that the commercial version of his signature ESP model has anything to do with the guitar he uses.

Edited February 27, 2007 by DrummerDude

[marksound]

Looked to me like he has a pretty light touch. Heavy sound doesn't necessarily mean heavy-handed.

[Ben]

I'm sure you will (understandably) cry BS, but I have a guitar where I can put the action low enough that it can hold a 0.9mm plectrum between the strings and the frets* (Edit- thats at the 24th fret*). Even when its just the outer-string alone holding it there (I.e. its not just due to the fretboard radius.)

I get a bit of fretbuzz if I pick too hard... especially on the lower, thicker strings, but thats about it. Its competely inaudible without the amp on.**

But I find I dont really like it that low anyway.

(**Edit#2: inaudible WITH the amp on.... typing like an idiot today)

Edited February 27, 2007 by Ben

[DrummerDude]

I'm sure you will (understandably) cry BS, but I have a guitar where I can put the action low enough that it can hold a 0.9mm plectrum between the strings and the frets* (Edit- thats at the 24th fret*). Even when its just the outer-string alone holding it there (I.e. its not just due to the fretboard radius.)

I get a bit of fretbuzz if I pick too hard... especially on the lower, thicker strings, but thats about it. Its competely inaudible without the amp on.

But I find I dont really like it that low anyway.

Ben, I need your guitar, man. It is not BS at all - after I saw that Children of Bodom concert DVD I know that it's completely possible.

I dream of having an axe with 1 mm action at the last fret. Like yours and Like Alexi's.

Looked to me like he has a pretty light touch. Heavy sound doesn't necessarily mean heavy-handed

@marksound, just have a look at the begining of the second part (it starts at 01:23) - you will nottice that he is strumming full force on the strings. You call this a "light touch"?

[marksound]

@marksound, just have a look at the begining of the second part (it starts at 01:23) - you will nottice that he is strumming full force on the strings. You call this a "light touch"?

I don't know about you, but I can strum "full force" and barely touch the strings. Do you even play guitar?

[westhemann]

marksound is right....i have a very heavy attack,but i use 1 mm nylon picks and really dig in for the percuussiveness on rythm...for alot of things i have a very light touch though...not like some of those guys though.

but if you use those thin nylons you can get much lighter as well.but it does sound,drummerdude ,like you are just a beginner.that's not a bad thing...but instead of assuming what you need,accept that you don't always know it all

i don't mean that to sound rude...i just don't know how else to say it

[Jaden]

regardless of whether or not its possible - and we didnt see any mega string bending there, possibly leading to choking.... I cant play with my action that low.

I have a few ibanez guitars that I can get the action lower on all of them but as soon as I do the board loses all its feel and the strings feel very very loose. In short it makes the whole guitar feel sloppy.

I like an action of around 1.7mm / 1.4mm (ish) low to high E.

I can still play shreddy stuff with that action because like someone else has already mentioned, I practiced a lot.

[soapbarstrat]

I don't know what's going on here. Does he think he can get super low action by thinking and talking about it ?

You have to get the frets all super level, which requires special tools(and knowing how to use them). I think it helps if your ultra flat leveling tool can hit all the frets at once. That's why I like my 19" bar :

http://usera.imagecave.com/soapbarstrat/leveler2072.jpg

It's FLAT. If I lay my 24" precision ground straight-edge on it, I can't get a .0015" feeler gauge to fit in between anywhere.

I like it so much, I recently made some more :

http://usera.imagecave.com/soapbarstrat/leveler2074.jpg

Although what you can't see is that on the one 17" one, on one side, I can get a .002" feeler gauge under the straight-edge,in the middle, so I consider that one a reject. (Currently, I have that piece of glass pulled back off the metal tube, and will retry- the gluing technique can screw them up)

The 19" long one with the piece of "ceiling tile track" is also a reject (although I like the control that kind of handle gives)

[DrummerDude]

soapbarstrat, this is cool. I like it. What is it? :D

marksound, I do play the guitar.

Try to find that Live DVD and watch the strumming part on full screen and in Stereo - you'd know that he's not just "barely touching the strings".

That guy plays with power and aggresion. Just like most Metal guitarists.

No feather strumming here, believe me.

[soapbarstrat]

Glad you asked that. It proves that no books about fret-work have been read. No videos about fret-work have been watched. In other words, it's like : " where's the hidden button I just need to switch to get super-low action".

Any thread related to the subject is going to be supplemental at best. No one in their right mind is going to recreate all they had to gather over the years, to be able to do this stuff well. Again, there's books, videos, and hands-on experience is required, *if you are going to do it yourself*, but I think it's safe to say, you need to find and pay someone else to get your guitars all tweaked out. The "magic button" ain't there.

Edited February 27, 2007 by soapbarstrat

[DrummerDude]

It was just a joke.

Here's what I do to level freshly inlaid frets: I take a piece of fine sandpaper, glue it on a long piece of glass (long enough to cover the whole fretboard), put double sticking tape on the bottom of the glass, lay the glass on the table (sandpaper up) and start sanding the frets to even them out.

I like to color the top of the frets with a permanent marker.

[marksound]

marksound, I do play the guitar.

Try to find that Live DVD and watch the strumming part on full screen and in Stereo - you'd know that he's not just "barely touching the strings".

That guy plays with power and aggresion. Just like most Metal guitarists.

No feather strumming here, believe me.

Thanks, but I'm just not that interested. BTW, you can play "with power and aggression" and not beat a guitar to death. Are you sure you can play?

[westhemann]

again...i find myself in agreement with marksound.

children of bodm is basically a heavier version of dream theater...alex laiho is very,very tecnically profficient....i can gaurantee that although it MAY look like he is just "going off",he has a very controlled touch.nothing i have heard from c.o.b ever made me think they were "beating their guitars to death"

[fryovanni]

I think you would have done better to have spent the time working on your guitar instead of making videos. Just my 2 cents. Then again I would have done better to have spent the time working on my guitars instead of typing this responce .

[DrummerDude]

Yeah, the whole video stuff was kind of offtopic, I must admit.

It's just that I haven't been on the board for quite a few months and when I got back a month or so ago, whado I see - the whole thread had turned into one huge "possible" vs "impossible" conversation.

Well, there's the video - it is possible to have super low action and still play your guitar without any problems.

Watch Laiho, watch Angelo, watch metal shredders in general - they all use low action axes.

I took your totally-no-neck-relief advice and if things are going good for me, i.e. if I manage to get a good pre-made neck (which is yet another horror story), soon I will be posting photos of my work.