8 String Truss Rod/s

[Gemm012]

Hey, I'm new here, been looking at tutorials for awhile. I wanted to try and build an 8 string guitar with a high A instead of a low F# or whatever note it is. I'd like to make it a neck through, and with 36 frets. My question is, do I need to use two truss rods or will one do the job. I was thinking about maybe a 26" or 25.5" scale. Also, are there any high output pickups I could use for this guitar? I think I'll only be able to fit a single bridge pickup in there. I was thinking about EMGs, but like I said, I wanted something with a high out put so I don't know if EMG's bass pickup that I've seen on some guitars would really work that well. Thanks for any help.

Galen.

Edited September 5, 2005 by Gemm012

[jnewman]

http://xush.net/mywebpages/Xush%20Guitars_...n_guitarlin.jpg

Have you done any research? THAT one only has 31 frets - how could you possibly want 36? It'd be virtually unplayable, unbalanced, the neck'd be floppy, it'd have strength issues, and it'd be really, really ugly.

Is it just so you can have a guitar with more strings and more frets than any of your friends?

[Maiden69]

Keep searchin on the forum, there are a few threads on 8 strings and the cons to having 2 rods. As for the 36 frets I think it's not practical, not needed and ridiculously looking. As far as the pups, other than the D'Marzio ones that LGM is using on the Leviattans, I don't know of any other ones that might be a bit brigther.

[Gemm012]

http://www.gilmerwood.com/images/03-20-03iw-dm1.jpg

I had sort of planned to do something similar to this bass, and have the body wood extend far up on the bass side of the neck (sort of like an extremely exagerated les paul) to help support the neck and have the treble side be cut so that I could get my hand up on the extra frets. I had come to terms with the fact that this thing would be horribly ugly. The idea was sortof to have one very extended range instrument then have my 6 strings. This is still of course a very early concept and I haven't done a whole lot of planning on it. I would almost like to have fewer frets so I could put a neck pickup in, but having all those frets on just one guitar is pretty appealing, even if unpractical and ugly. As for the picture that jnewman posted, seeing as once you got that far up, another 5 frets would be a fairly short distance, only go up to about a little past the neck pickup, it's not that far to stretch it for another octave. I think I've pretty well defended myself. That's not to say that this is going to work, but I don't think it's that unreasonable. I'm pretty sure I've seen 36 fret guitars before, but of course, once I needed it I couldn't find a picture. I'll search some more for the two truss rod thing. Thanks anyway though. More posts poking more holes in my crumby plan are welcome. Thanks

Galen.

Edited September 6, 2005 by Gemm012

[thegarehanman]

I have a new idea for you. You want an 8 string w/ 36 frets? Well, unless you're using a bass scale, I guarantee the last few frets will have an almost imperceptable gap between them. I imagine fretting the 36th fret would be about as easy as conjoined twins riding sperate motorcycles. Ok, I don't know where that analogy came from; I appologize. Anyhow, what would you think about adding another string(on the high e side)? It wouldn't give you as wide a range, but it'd still be fairly large. The last guitar I built has 24 frets. The idea of having 2 octaves on a single string was very appealing, but realistically...I feel like the frets are too close together,to an uncomfortable extent, and I'm just not going to need that range.

On a side note: When I think of an 8 string guitar, I think death metal. When I think of 36 frets on a guitar, I think of a guy singing a high note after getting kicked in the balls. So when I think of this guitar, I think of death metal getting kicked in the balls. :D

peace,

russ

Edited September 6, 2005 by thegarehanman

[Gemm012]

Thanks for the humor, I needed some after having my plan subjectively torn to bits. I had been planning on having the highest string be a high A or maybe G if I tuned it down some so that there wouldn't be so much tension on the high string and it wouldn't break. I definately know what you mean about the high frets being way too close together, the distance between fret 35 and 36 would be .19". I'm more and more thinking of making it with fewer frets. Thanks for the advise.

Galen.

Edited September 6, 2005 by Gemm012

[frank falbo]

For the higher frets, just switch to mandolin frets with scallops. Just make sure the height is the same as the other frets. It still will be relatively useless, but...um...less useless.

I don't think 2 rods is necessary, and I don't think it's necessary in a 6-string bass either. You should be fine because your scale length is shorter than a 6-string bass, and your tension will be lower too.

[goth_fiend]

2 rods wouldnt be necessary, but i would definatly suggest using some form of reinforcement in the neck, with the 8 i was building, i had 2 carbon rods in it with a single truss rod, no problems (that is until my cousin got to my blank.....) as for pickups you have very few options, you can go with an emg bass pickup (which is an emg 85 in a bass housing actually) or you can go with duncan customs, and im not sure about dimarzio's (jeremy could tell you more, i havent checked with them on anything) also are you used to using extended fretboards because i can tell you, in most cases you will not be using those extra frets (i have a 28 fret neck one of my guitars, and thats as many as i need)

[Mattia]

Thanks for the humor, I needed some after having my plan subjectively torn to bits.    I had been planning on having the highest string be a high A or maybe G if I tuned it down some so that there wouldn't be so much tension on the high string and it wouldn't break. I definately know what you mean about the high frets being way too close together, the distance between fret 35 and 36 would be .19". I'm more and more thinking of making it with fewer frets. Thanks for the advise.

Galen.

←

Indeed. But if y'tune down, it's hardly a high A string anymore, is it? There are a few jazz boxes (archtops, methinks), although might've been an acoustc guitar, with a High A, and I'm fairly certain the topic's come up on the MIMF before. In that case, a shorter scale rather than a longer one is a good idea, although a fanned fret type layout might be an even better one.

[erikbojerik]

Check this link if you're looking for a neck-thru blank for an 8-string. 8 string neck blank

I think with strong laminates like that, there's no need for dual truss rods.

You may find that you won't be able to keep a high-A, or even a G#; you get higher notes with shorter scale lengths (think mandolins & violins). Even if you can get it up to tune, the trade-off between string diameter and string tension will cause the string break once you start using it to any great extent (e.g. slightest bend). I've tried this on both Fender (Strat) and Gibson (LPC) scales, and even a .008 would break before I got it up to tune. Heavier strings were worse. Usually broke at the saddle or ball-end. Try it on an axe you already own, you might get different results than I.

I don't think the 36 frets is out of the question at all; sure the fret spacing will be tight, but no tighter than on a mandolin. For frets beyond #24, you could go with mando wire which is quite narrow. Yes, mandolins are tuned in 5ths instead of 4ths so all the fingerings are different, but you could certainly alter your fingerings and the intervals that you play way up there to accomodate.

It's an interesting idea.

[Marzocchi705]

You wont need to alter your fingering atal, as the frets will be placed acording to scale length. Sorta like you dont have to alter your fingering to play on a 27fret jackson.

[erikbojerik]

Altered fingerings....of course you're right Marz, the scales don't change. What I meant was that it will be increasingly more difficult to play adjacent frets the higher you go on the neck. So OK, you just drop half-steps. Maybe even whole steps if you have fat digits (like me).

On the other hand, frets closer together makes it easier to make big note jumps on the same string (4ths, 5ths, 6ths...etc), so that the close fret spacing actually opens up some interesting scale and chord patterns that you just would not be able to do at the other end of the neck.

That's what I was driving at.

[Marzocchi705]

I get ya now, its just the way you said youl have to alter your fingering that threw me a bit. I like the idea of big stretched out chords that are not so streched out.

[LGM Guitars]

God I love some of the comments here, completely mindless. "Guarantee's", "worthless", "unplayable", "Unbalanced", "floppy neck' what great comments to make here. The Leviiiathan 8 is available with 36 frets, they're quite playable, they are far from unbalanced, the necks are rock solid, and they are far from worthless.

Hmmmmmm, 36 frets, well, lets see, Washburn did it very well with the EC36, I had one, yeah, they were tight, but useless? no, I used them for tapping with the pick edge.

I do 8 strings with 36 frets, yup, on a 25.5" scale they are tight, but you can still use regular fretwire, don't have to go to smaller wire, and yes, there is still a gap between them.

As for truss rods, you still only need one. Carbon rods are nice as reinforcement, and I use them, but only as a safety. You're not adding a HUGE amount more tension over a 7 string guitar, with a high A string you'll want to use a 25.5" scale length, and yes, it can be done fine, when Ibanez brought out the Universe, Hamer brought out their answer to the 7 string with a high A, worked fine, I know a couple players that use high A's instead of lower strings as well.

As for pickups, Seymour Duncan will do custom pickups, just be prepared to wait forever and pay through the teeth, the quality is questionable too after the last batch I received. Dimarzio won't do 8 string pickups, I've tried, seems unless you're Steve Vai, getting a custom pickup isn't happening.

It's great seeing some of these comments on here, especially when they are being made by people who have never built the particular guitar in question. Speculation is one thing, but to be saying these comments like it's the gospel truth is ridiculous.

The only thing I find impressive about certain members here is how they can still type with their head that far up their butt and both feet in their mouth all at the same time............

[MikeB]

thankyou Jeremy, close to what I would have said. My 31 fret neck is playable by fingers to 31, i dont see why 36 is soo far off that.

i have been debating a 8 string guitar, but cant decide extra high or low.

Mike

[Gemm012]

God I love some of the comments here, completely mindless.  "Guarantee's", "worthless", "unplayable", "Unbalanced", "floppy neck'  what great comments to make here.  The Leviiiathan 8 is available with 36 frets, they're quite playable, they are far from unbalanced, the necks are rock solid, and they are far from worthless.

Hmmmmmm, 36 frets, well, lets see, Washburn did it very well with the EC36, I had one, yeah, they were tight, but useless? no, I used them for tapping with the pick edge....

The only thing I find impressive about certain members here is how they can still type with their head that far up their butt and both feet in their mouth all at the same time............

←

I knew I had seen one somewhere . Thanks for the help, and for sortof defended my plan. I had planned on doing a real strong laminate with padouk, satine, walnut, and maybe wenge or bubinga. Those are just some woods I was thinking of.

Galen.

[jnewman]

God I love some of the comments here, completely mindless.  "Guarantee's", "worthless", "unplayable", "Unbalanced", "floppy neck'  what great comments to make here.  The Leviiiathan 8 is available with 36 frets, they're quite playable, they are far from unbalanced, the necks are rock solid, and they are far from worthless.

Hmmmmmm, 36 frets, well, lets see, Washburn did it very well with the EC36, I had one, yeah, they were tight, but useless? no, I used them for tapping with the pick edge.

I do 8 strings with 36 frets, yup, on a 25.5" scale they are tight, but you can still use regular fretwire, don't have to go to smaller wire, and yes, there is still a gap between them. 

As for truss rods, you still only need one.  Carbon rods are nice as reinforcement, and I use them, but only as a safety.  You're not adding a HUGE amount more tension over a 7 string guitar, with a high A string you'll want to use a 25.5" scale length, and yes, it can be done fine, when Ibanez brought out the Universe, Hamer brought out their answer to the 7 string with a high A, worked fine, I know a couple players that use high A's instead of lower strings as well.

As for pickups, Seymour Duncan will do custom pickups, just be prepared to wait forever and pay through the teeth, the quality is questionable too after the last batch I received.  Dimarzio won't do 8 string pickups, I've tried, seems unless you're Steve Vai, getting a custom pickup isn't happening. 

It's great seeing some of these comments on here, especially when they are being made by people who have never built the particular guitar in question.  Speculation is one thing, but to be saying these comments like it's the gospel truth is ridiculous. 

The only thing I find impressive about certain members here is how they can still type with their head that far up their butt and both feet in their mouth all at the same time............

←

I'd be interested to see one of your 36 fret leviathans - they have great fret access up to 24, but how do you get to the frets past 24? If you just stick 'em on the body, they're hard to get to, and if you cut out the body to get access you make the neck harder to keep straight, more likely to be neck-heavy, and, in my opinion pretty ugly. I've seen guitars with a lot of frets before, and I don't think I've ever seen one that'd be comfortable to play past 24 - either there's no access or it gets unbalanced. If you've solved all the problems, more power to you.

By the way, LGM - I've never built the guitar in question, no, but I've seen them and played a couple with extra frets or extra strings and I've never been the least bit impressed - maybe it's just not my thing.

Edited September 6, 2005 by jnewman

[thegarehanman]

Not my thing either. My only aversion is the playability. And...I don't even like 7 strings. For some reason, I don't like AANJ's either. I'm so used to playing single cut LP's that when I get to the higher frets and there's no body to work around, I feel like something's missing.

Jeremy, I didn't make any guarantees it wouldn't work. I only said there would definitely be little space between the frets. You need to have a beer and relax. You've done your fare share of naysaying(GOTM thread, cough, cough). Come to New Orleans once it's rebuilt ; I'll show you how to unwind.

Edited September 6, 2005 by thegarehanman

[jnewman]

I think he was mostly aimed at me, seeing as how most of the things he said are quotes of my first post .

EDIT: Well, except for the guarantee part... I didn't guarantee anything. Heh.

Edited September 6, 2005 by jnewman

[thegarehanman]

...me? paranoid? couldn't be

[Maiden69]

I wasn't aware of the fact that Leviathans were available in 36 fret, but I see it now on the options...

I still think that it is too much, unless like Jeremy pointed out, to be tapped, since it will be pretty dificult to reach all the way there with the fingers... Jeremy, do you have a pic of a 36 that you have done? I seen the EC36, and I really don't like the way the fretboard site, you get good access to the 29th, from there you need spider fingers to reach down.

I still think it is a bit "over the edge", especialy on the 25.5 neck, I know the VIII is a 27" scale, but that will leave the fretboard between 1.5-2" from the pup.

And I wan't aware that DiMarzio didn't made custom 8's, I thought that they did for you? But now that I remember you use the EMG's on it.