GuitarMaestro Posted September 6, 2005 Report Share Posted September 6, 2005 The more I think and read about neck woods I wonder if the expensive figured woods I usually use may decrease sound quality. My usual neck material is curly red maple (a harder species than western bigleaf)....could it be that figure in the neck slows or negatively influences the travel of sound-waves in the neck, making th neck sound more mellow and having a slow attack? What about other types of figure? Birdseye? Quilt? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frank falbo Posted September 6, 2005 Report Share Posted September 6, 2005 Well, it's not so much about the travel of sound waves "through" the wood grains, but rather the way the piece vibrates as a whole. I haven't experienced any negative sound effects from figured woods, unless the wood is too soft, as some flame & quilt is. But I can tell that before I build with it. I've never built with softer figured maple, but I've played plenty of necks that I knew were soft. But they would sound lousy whether they were figured or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattia Posted September 6, 2005 Report Share Posted September 6, 2005 Depends on the chunk of wood. As a rule, figured wood has higher dampening than non-figured, but it depends on the piece. As for softness, I don't know if that's a useful criteria in general. For maples, maybe (although mandolin necks? often made of flatsawn soft maple), but mahogany's softer than bigleaf maple, and is a lovely neck wood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuitarMaestro Posted September 7, 2005 Author Report Share Posted September 7, 2005 Thanks for your answers. The material I use is not soft in my opinion....I cannot make out a difference to standard hard maple. How do you check your neck pieces Frank? If you talk about the softness as the only factor I have to agree with mattia: what about mahagony and other softer but traditional neck woods? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted September 7, 2005 Report Share Posted September 7, 2005 If you talk about the softness as the only factor I have to agree with mattia: what about mahagony and other softer but traditional neck woods? mahogany is more stable than maple...and is more rigid than a "soft" piece of maple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frank falbo Posted September 7, 2005 Report Share Posted September 7, 2005 Right. GM said he usually uses Maple. So I'm sort of limiting the comparisons to Maples. Generally with Maple, softer means more flexible/less stiff. And with a Maple neck, I will always prefer the stiffer piece. There are reinforced necks made out of Alder, Basswood, etc. so it's not like I think every neck needs to be made out of Hard Maple or anything. Less stiff woods with reinforcement can work okay, too. But then you're not just hearing and feeling the wood. You're hearing the sound of the reinforcement material too. But yes, from species to species, hard doesn't always equal stiff and vice versa. Spruce very stiff but soft, Oak is hard, but not very stiff. So with Maple, I will always test the flex of the piece. It's not about the weight. You can test the flex a bunch of ways, but basically when I have it planed down to thickness, I simply sight the line while pressing down on the middle of the board. And I know what I'm looking for, just because I've flexed a lot of Maple over the years. Figured or not, it should be stiff. Sometimes you deliberately trade stiffness for beauty. And you just build the guitar around that. You might compliment it with other woods that sharpen the attack, like a semi-hollow Ash body and an Ebony board for example. A thick Ebony board will stiffen the neck greatly, so you can afford to use a figured neck blank with more flex. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuitarMaestro Posted September 7, 2005 Author Report Share Posted September 7, 2005 Thanks alot for the replies. The last neck I built was made of two 8mm wide stripes of quatersawn Bubinga and 3 stripes of curly quatersawn western bigleaf maple topped with an ebony fingerboard. As you see I used only quatersawn wood AND selected the woods to result in a stiff neck in the end. However I am not really happy with the guitars sound. Not enough attack/bite and to mellow for my taste. I suspect it is the neck, but I cannot be sure. Therefore I started building a new neck with the same woods and dimensions except for using flat-sawn curly red maple for the maple parts. I was told that red maple has about the same properties as regular rock maple. The reason I started this thread was that I wonder if this will give me an improvement at all....what do you think? I don't want to alter the curly maple neck look of the guitar.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattia Posted September 7, 2005 Report Share Posted September 7, 2005 (edited) Thanks alot for the replies. The last neck I built was made of two 8mm wide stripes of quatersawn Bubinga and 3 stripes of curly quatersawn western bigleaf maple topped with an ebony fingerboard. As you see I used only quatersawn wood AND selected the woods to result in a stiff neck in the end. However I am not really happy with the guitars sound. Not enough attack/bite and to mellow for my taste. I suspect it is the neck, but I cannot be sure. Therefore I started building a new neck with the same woods and dimensions except for using flat-sawn curly red maple for the maple parts. I was told that red maple has about the same properties as regular rock maple. The reason I started this thread was that I wonder if this will give me an improvement at all....what do you think? I don't want to alter the curly maple neck look of the guitar.... ← I'd be wary of blaming any singular element for the lack of 'snap'. My first place to blame would have to be body wood, then pickups, then hardware, then setup, then neck construction, then neck woods. I'd also reccomend adding a pair of CF rods to your neck, laminations or not. This said, I'm no expert. I like my mellower tones (I've built, to date, two maple necks, the rest almost all being mahoganies, at least chiefly). Edited September 7, 2005 by mattia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erikbojerik Posted September 7, 2005 Report Share Posted September 7, 2005 What about the body wood? What kind? What about the pups? (ditto) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fryovanni Posted September 7, 2005 Report Share Posted September 7, 2005 Big leaf really varies from board to board. As Frank mentioned you really have to test each one individually. Mahogany is very conscistent, and hard Maples tend to be pretty similar(strong and stronger). As far as Bigleaf Maple goes. I have found some "coastal" varietys are much weaker and lighter. You can find some pieces that are very strong and dense. You just have to watch for the good stuff. Peace,Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted September 7, 2005 Report Share Posted September 7, 2005 maestro...i think you should hear a difference(my personal belief) because i think you are one of the group of people who actually CAN hear subtle differences in tone quality...i think the hard maple will tighten it up for you. BUT if it is still not what you want(because limba is a mellower wood than say...alder)then consider swapping out those dimarzio pups you put on it for an emg 81/7 at the bridge and either the same at the neck,or a 707(basically a 7 string 85) the 81/7 at the bridge will give you alot more snap than those dimarzio pups(blaze if i remember right?) the 7 string i sent you clips of that one time has 81/7s in it...it is also a set maple(hard)/mahogany neck with a solid alder body...but i think you can get around those differences with the pickups...at least to give you more snap than what you have. mine is very crunchy...alot of attack.too bad it does not look as good as yours Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuitarMaestro Posted September 7, 2005 Author Report Share Posted September 7, 2005 Thanks for the answers! @All: Concerning the body: It is a black limba body with 5mm quilted maple top. The pickup is a DiMarzio Tone Zone 7 in the bridge and a Air Norton 7 at the neck and a Blaze 7 singelcoil in the middle. I am very happy with the tone of the bridge and middle pickup, especially for clean sounds. It's just that the bridge position distorted sounds to muddy and has not enough bite for what I like. The other positions sound more mellow than a Strat for example, but thats great for clean sounds. Youre definately right that the neck is not the only factor. But I wont redo the body and the pickups *should* be great. At least the 6 string version of the ToneZone is my favorite PU ever. @mattia: Why CF rods? Did you ever work with bubinga? It's CRAZY stuff....The CF rods I have are way easier to flex than the Bubinga stripes, especially because the stripes have the full neck thickness. Or do you think they will alter the sound? I dont think so.... @fryovanni: Interesting that the the location the tree grows has so much influence. The Bigleaf I used was quatersawn and very stiff, it felt like hard maple. But the new neck I am currently building is red maple anyway.... @Wes: You still remeber that guitar? COOL! I will definately try another bridge PU if I dont like the sound with the new neck. The sound clip you had was quite nice.... However doing alot of studio work and mixing/mastering I know that judging the sound by a soundclip is damn close to impossible....The amp and mic placement has a 10x bigger influence on the recorded sound than different guitars altogether in my opinion. But the soundclip definately hinted at a great PU. I guess I'll just finish that neck know and if it doesn't change the sound enough, I'll experiment with different PU's. Thanks everbody! One thing I realized though: Does anyone use curly maple for necks? I sure dont know of many curly maple necks....maybe with good reason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattia Posted September 7, 2005 Report Share Posted September 7, 2005 (edited) CF is good beause it's consistent. And yes, I do have bubinga, and I know it's stiff as heck. Thing is, it's only part of the neck. The CF provides an even stiffness along, and is flexible enough that it shouldn't make a neck too stiff. Gone are any potential dead spots, and you've got a slight additional amount of stiffness if your neck needs it. Curly (as in flamed, anyway) maple is fairly common in necks (I've got a couple made of striped hard maple), but I've rarely if ever seen quilt used in necks, which is what I think you mean. Re: tone, I'd blame the body and the neck, I guess. A 5mm cap isn't going to do much to affect the 'mahogany family' warm, middly tone you'll get out of a limba body. Thicker top, LP style, might have more snap to it, but yeah, a new neck might be the way to go here. Edited September 7, 2005 by mattia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Sorbera Posted September 7, 2005 Report Share Posted September 7, 2005 I prefer my guitars to be overly bright. It's alot easier to roll back the tone knob than to make a muddy sounding guitar crisp and clean. I agree that a neck change would probably do the trick for this one. I see you already had an ebony fingerboard on there that is good.. That should help things get a wee bit brighter. don't see any real problems with your selection on woods. It must have just been that perticular peice of maple that diddnt want to cooperate with you. I've played guitars with curly big leaf maple necks and they had bore bite than you can shake a stick at Mabye use this neck on a maple, wenge, or bubinga body? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuitarMaestro Posted September 7, 2005 Author Report Share Posted September 7, 2005 @Everybody who does not know what guitar I am talking about look here @Mattia: Curly (as in flamed, anyway) maple is fairly common in necks (I've got a couple made of striped hard maple), but I've rarely if ever seen quilt used in necks, which is what I think you mean. I am talking about curly maple and NOT quilted maple. Quilted Maple would be way to unstable in my expirience.... Re: tone, I'd blame the body and the neck, I guess. A 5mm cap isn't going to do much to affect the 'mahogany family' warm, middly tone you'll get out of a limba body. Thicker top, LP style, might have more snap to it, but yeah, a new neck might be the way to go here. You're definately right here: It's probably not thick enough, but altering the body is not possible anymore unfortunately! CF is good beause it's consistent. And yes, I do have bubinga, and I know it's stiff as heck. Thing is, it's only part of the neck. The CF provides an even stiffness along, and is flexible enough that it shouldn't make a neck too stiff. Gone are any potential dead spots, and you've got a slight additional amount of stiffness if your neck needs it. I am not against CF rods. But the two Bubinga stripes are 8mm each which is quite massive, I doubt that CF Rods would made it stiffer. Especially because I would have to route part of the channels for it out of the Bubinga stripes and I suspect this might even make the neck weaker. Youre sure it would be an improvement? @Godin: Great to hear....I hope it was just the piece.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted September 7, 2005 Report Share Posted September 7, 2005 The sound clip you had was quite nice.... However doing alot of studio work and mixing/mastering I know that judging the sound by a soundclip is damn close to impossible....The amp and mic placement has a 10x bigger influence on the recorded sound than different guitars altogether in my opinion. But the soundclip definately hinted at a great PU. yeah...but the object i am trying to achieve with my recording is to try to capture my live sound...that clip i sent is pretty close,but in person the sound is better. i am starting to think that the mahogany,alder combination is "the sh*t" so to speak...i never see that combo in guitars,but in mine,even with only the 1" strip in the middle of my necks,it really brings the sound together. so to test that,i have decided to soon build a mahogany set neck,alder bodied guitar...i have a feeling it may be really good You still remeber that guitar? i told you before...i remember more than most Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted September 7, 2005 Report Share Posted September 7, 2005 Especially because I would have to route part of the channels for it out of the Bubinga stripes and I suspect this might even make the neck weaker. Youre sure it would be an improvement? no,it would not be an improvement in this particular case i think...i love those rods,but bubinga is so damn stiff,i really think the improvement would be negligible...and as long as you have flat mating surfaces and good glue coverage,you will not have dead spots on your neck..and i know that your tolerances are tight enough that will be no problem for you. yeah...the 81/7 is indeed a snappier bridge pup than the tone zone...although i do like the tone zone,but it is a warm pickup,which when combined with limba could very well make the tone too warm...or "mushy" as you say.try the neck first. unfortunately,i know of no single coil seven string emg...but they do custom orders at guitarpartsdepot... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattia Posted September 8, 2005 Report Share Posted September 8, 2005 Re: tone, I'd blame the body and the neck, I guess. A 5mm cap isn't going to do much to affect the 'mahogany family' warm, middly tone you'll get out of a limba body. Thicker top, LP style, might have more snap to it, but yeah, a new neck might be the way to go here. You're definately right here: It's probably not thick enough, but altering the body is not possible anymore unfortunately! Well, quite. Also, I'm a bit vague on this whole 'curly vs flamed vs tiger stripe vs quilt' thing. I thought 'curly' was a generic term, much like 'figured', whereas things like quilt, flamed and tiger-stripe (subset of flamed) refer the the kind of figure in particular, none of it really clarifying what wood we're talking about. But maybe that's just my problem. Oh, and NICE guitar :-) I am not against CF rods. But the two Bubinga stripes are 8mm each which is quite massive, I doubt that CF Rods would made it stiffer. Especially because I would have to route part of the channels for it out of the Bubinga stripes and I suspect this might even make the neck weaker. Youre sure it would be an improvement? Nah, in that case, probably won't improve things much. But, if it were me, I'd do it anyway. Reason: wood is plastic. It creeps over time under tension, and eventually gets 'set' there. It deforms. Takes years and years, mind you, but deform it does. CF springs back to 'straight'. This said, plenty of guitars out there without them that are fine. I just like to see it as cheap long-term insurance. Anyway, I think you're right about your original plan: selecting a stiffer piece of harder maple will hopefully help things out. Heck, maybe using something more like a Cocobolo fingerboard (or Brazilian), since both have less damping than ebony, and are nice, dense woods that should have some good snap to 'em. Seems to be a concensus among acoustic builders, anyway, that BRW board guitars have more snap to 'em than ebony ones. Just a thought.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuitarMaestro Posted September 8, 2005 Author Report Share Posted September 8, 2005 Thanks for your answers again! i am starting to think that the mahogany,alder combination is "the sh*t" so to speak...i never see that combo in guitars,but in mine,even with only the 1" strip in the middle of my necks,it really brings the sound together. Sounds interesting...I never heard of a guitar with this combination of woods. I am definately interested how your next guitar will sound....are you already building? yeah...the 81/7 is indeed a snappier bridge pup than the tone zone...although i do like the tone zone,but it is a warm pickup,which when combined with limba could very well make the tone too warm...or "mushy" as you say.try the neck first. unfortunately,i know of no single coil seven string emg...but they do custom orders at guitarpartsdepot... Is the EMG 81/7 splittable? If not a middle pickup would not makes much sense at all for me. Currently the neck and brigde pu gets split for all combinations where the middle PU is active.... Well, quite. Also, I'm a bit vague on this whole 'curly vs flamed vs tiger stripe vs quilt' thing. I thought 'curly' was a generic term, much like 'figured', whereas things like quilt, flamed and tiger-stripe (subset of flamed) refer the the kind of figure in particular, none of it really clarifying what wood we're talking about. But maybe that's just my problem. Well I am from Germany and not native speaker, but in all books and internet sites I read maple was classified into three categories: 1. Regular unfigured maple 2. Quilted Maple 3. flamed = curly = tiger-stripe = the stuff I used on that neck Nah, in that case, probably won't improve things much. But, if it were me, I'd do it anyway. Reason: wood is plastic. It creeps over time under tension, and eventually gets 'set' there. It deforms. Takes years and years, mind you, but deform it does. CF springs back to 'straight'. This said, plenty of guitars out there without them that are fine. I just like to see it as cheap long-term insurance. Thats definately true....maybe I'll add some rods just for additional safety against warping.... Oh, and NICE guitar :-) Thanks alot!!!! Okay...I will finish this neck then (with slow progress -> not much time) and let you know how it turns out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maiden69 Posted September 8, 2005 Report Share Posted September 8, 2005 Is the EMG 81/7 splittable? If not a middle pickup would not makes much sense at all for me. Currently the neck and brigde pu gets split for all combinations where the middle PU is active.... Nope, the output is categorized as the 85 but to my ears it appears a bit brighter. I don't think that guitar parts depot can get a single coli EMG, I tried to get one when I was doing the 7 string and I was told that at the moment the only one was the 81/7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuitarMaestro Posted September 8, 2005 Author Report Share Posted September 8, 2005 Thanks....good to know....I'll probably build a new 7 strings if ever I want to use EMG's. For this guitar it would not work: I would have to rerout the PU cavities, route out a Battery/Electronic cavity, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted September 8, 2005 Report Share Posted September 8, 2005 Is the EMG 81/7 splittable? If not a middle pickup would not makes much sense at all for me. Currently the neck and brigde pu gets split for all combinations where the middle PU is active.... Nope, the output is categorized as the 85 but to my ears it appears a bit brighter. I don't think that guitar parts depot can get a single coli EMG, I tried to get one when I was doing the 7 string and I was told that at the moment the only one was the 81/7 ← you are thinking of the 707..which is categorized as a 7 string 85...the 81/7 is an 81 for a seven string. but yes...the 707 is actually kind of in between an 81 and an 85 in tone to my ears but no,neither split Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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