!!METAL MATT!! Posted November 2, 2005 Report Share Posted November 2, 2005 Ok I dont know any thing about building amps BUT I have A good friend that does now I had A talk with him the other day about building a head that would go with the style of my guitars! So I need to know what I need to buy to build this DEATH FROM ABOVE BLACK METAL AMP I guess Im asking what kind of components I need like, tubs, pots, resistors, transformer, Capacitors, Chassis, Diodes, Fuses, Tube Sockets, Preamp/Driver What parts do I need to get the sound Im looking for? im sure that my bud knows but I was hopeing that I could get some Ideas from you guys !!METAL MATT!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovekraft Posted November 2, 2005 Report Share Posted November 2, 2005 Uh..., could you repeat the question? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
!!METAL MATT!! Posted November 2, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 2, 2005 Uh..., could you repeat the question? I guess I was unclear What brand of parts do I need to build A high gain DEATH FROM ABOVE BLACK METAL AMP head you know like what kind of tubs and stuff do need to get the sound I want !!METAL MATT!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovekraft Posted November 2, 2005 Report Share Posted November 2, 2005 OK, so you want to know what brand sockets, caps, resistors, chassis and wire you need for a Death Metal amp? It won't matter at all! If you were doing a low gain, vintage style amp, there might be a difference in tone, but for a totally saturated midscooped metal amp, fugedabadit! Your tube choices might be important, but any subtle tonal differences from other components will be completely swamped out by the noise and distortion. If you trust this guy to build the amp, you should also trust his choice of components. Just make sure the power supply is beefy enough, and the rest will take care of itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
!!METAL MATT!! Posted November 2, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 2, 2005 Really? well that shows what I know about amps So what matters is my tubes and power supply !!METAL MATT!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnewman Posted November 2, 2005 Report Share Posted November 2, 2005 Well, what really matters is the topology of the amp, which you haven't said anything about - that in turn mostly governs what tubes you can use, although there's usually some play there, which lets you change the sound a little bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovekraft Posted November 3, 2005 Report Share Posted November 3, 2005 If I was designing a tube Death Metal amp, I'd start with a seriously beefy output transformer (to keep low end rolloff to a minimum), set up a preamp with 4 or 5 cascaded triode gain stages (with one, or possibly two, set up to hard-clip) with some mild tone shaping between them, follow that with a triode cathode follower and a Marshall style scooped mid tonestack into a long tail PI driving at least a pair of either EL34s or KT88s..., but that's just me. If any of that sounds confusing or unfamiliar to you, I'm afraid you're at the mercy of the guy who's going to build it for you -you can either trust his judgement, or get yourself "schooled" on how amps work, and design your own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onelastgoodbye Posted November 3, 2005 Report Share Posted November 3, 2005 mmmm KT88's Not to sound mean, but what you're basically asking is "I want to build a guitar tell me what parts numbers I need". And that question is actually a lot easier to answer than what you're asking now. I'd suggest you start by finding out which bands' sound you like, then find out what equipment they use, then *try* to find schematics for that particular amp (or 'genre' of amps); and then your friend can work around that. Now if he's really good you can just tell him 'I want that *insert death metal band here* sound' ; and he'll build a custom amp for you....but those people are pretty rare, and usually veeeery expensive . You'll want a pretty high-gain amp, so here's a shortlist of some well-respected metal amps(and places where you can hear soundclips) - Peavey 5150 (one of the most popular and imo best amps in metal) - Engl Powerball, Savage,... (lots of great clips on www.rocksolidamps.com) - Framus Cobra - VHT Ultralead - Diezel Herbert, VH4 (there used to be clips at www.tonemerchants.com) - Bogner Uberschall - Mesa Boogie Mark IV, III, rectifier, etc.. - Marshall jcm 800, 900, 2000, etc.. there's loads of clips of all these amps at the harmony-central amp forum you have to be a member to be allowed to search though (WARNING if you didn't know yet: people can get very 'rowdy' there but there's an incredible amount of info if you can look past that) I guess you have a little research ahead of you! greetz, Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
!!METAL MATT!! Posted November 3, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 3, 2005 Not to sound mean, but what you're basically asking is "I want to build a guitar tell me what parts numbers I need". That's not mean at all man! right now that's my inexperience asking the Qustion Now if he's really good you can just tell him 'I want that *insert death metal band here* sound' ; and he'll build a custom amp for you....but those people are pretty rare, and usually veeeery expensive . Well Doug is that Guy!! but I need to learn how these things work so I have this old SUN solid state power amp that I would like to METAL UP but Im not sure what I need to do that What makes A Randall solid state so good? what's the best way for me to learn what does what? Im An amp newbee and I Really appreciate you guys puting up with me and my qustions !!METAL MATT!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToneMonkey Posted November 3, 2005 Report Share Posted November 3, 2005 Matt, A good place to start would be over at www.18watt.com (well and here of course). Unfortunately, I'm an amp dunce and just intend (when I get the money, time and inclination to do so) to build a clone of a standard amp. Kaj Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Mariah Posted November 3, 2005 Report Share Posted November 3, 2005 (edited) I love it when people try to act all superior 'cause "Man, vintage tone takes effort... ANYTHING can get metal tone!" BULL****. ADMIN EDIT- I can see that you know the no swearing rule (by your own edits), so consider this your first warning. Once more, and you'll get to read-only for a couple of weeks. Thanks. It's FAR more difficult to build a head that can handle modern metal than it is to build an amp to rehash 40 year old tones with. Go ahead, use *** components on a high gain all tube head. Listen in absolute horror as it sounds like total *** while you realize you were a dumb*** to think that since it's a 'metal' amp that component quality doesn't count. Do you honestly think those old Marshalls and Fenders everyone wets their undies over were made from the highest quality components? Please. They were made from the cheapest components that wouldn't break in a month. It is absolutely ESSENTIAL that every component in a head designed for modern metal be top quality, otherwise you end up with all manner of noise, feedback, hissing, and generally *** tone. Compare the construction of a Bogner to that of a Plexi Marshall and tell me which ones component quality is better. Metal Matt: Solid state Sunn power amp, you say? What kind is it? You may not need to build an entire amp. It might be possible to combine that with a preamp section of some sort and end up with the sound you want. Any references on what tone you're looking for? Edited November 3, 2005 by lovekraft Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovekraft Posted November 3, 2005 Report Share Posted November 3, 2005 First of all, about one more imprudent scatological reference is gonna get you a vacation! You know better! If the grownups can't act right, how can you expect the youngsters to learn? Second, what is your point, exactly, and where did you get the idea that anybody was recommending using substandard components for building a metal amp? I simply said that the distortion (which is a good thing - distortion is what metal is all about) would swamp out any subtle tonal coloration from "magic" components, like carbon comp resistors and "special" caps. I stand by that, and defy you to show me any evidence to the contrary! As for Marshall and Fender, that's old news - any mass-produced amp is deliberately designed to be as cheap as possible to produce without compromising its workability and consistency. Ask Mike Soldano about the "alterations" made to his T series amps before Yamaha put them into production. And anybody who thinks, "...It is absolutely ESSENTIAL that every component in a head designed for modern metal be top quality, otherwise you end up with all manner of noise, feedback, hissing, and generally *** tone." has never done repairs on a Dual Rectifier! Comparing a Plexi to a Bogner is like comparing a 1965 Impala to a modern one - they're completely different animals! Gimme a break - it's not easy to make any kind of amp sound really good, but it doesn't take anything but normal market-level components to make a good-sounding amp, metal or not! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gripper Posted November 3, 2005 Report Share Posted November 3, 2005 Get ahold of Saint Louis Music and get a schematic for a 120 Crate Blue Voodoo head. Mess around with some gain issues and a few differant preamp tubes and you will have a metal MONSTER! If you build a reverb channel into it, be very careful about the reverb-out tube. It makes a lot of differance. I didn't know you could change those preamp tubes out at will without rewiring. When I found that out I started swapping tubes on my Genz and a borrowed BV and learned a lot about the effect of preamp tubes in a fairly simple tube amp. Metal, meddle, why not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Mariah Posted November 3, 2005 Report Share Posted November 3, 2005 Second, what is your point, exactly, and where did you get the idea that anybody was recommending using substandard components for building a metal amp? If you're actually READ what you wrote, you'll notice that you said It won't matter at all! what components you use. It does. It matters a LOT. You don't have to use 'magic' components (which won't give you REAL tonal differences in even the cleanest of amps) but you DO have to use GOOD components. And anybody who thinks, "...It is absolutely ESSENTIAL that every component in a head designed for modern metal be top quality, otherwise you end up with all manner of noise, feedback, hissing, and generally *** tone." has never done repairs on a Dual Rectifier! You're right. I haven't. I also hate Rectifier tone. It's fizzy and buzzy and worst of all the low is is flabby as hell. Gimme a Mark. Any of em. Comparing a Plexi to a Bogner is like comparing a 1965 Impala to a modern one - they're completely different animals! Which was sort of my entire point. You can build a Marshall knockoff out of Radio Shack components and have it come out sounding good. Try doing the same for a modern high gain design. If you're lucky it won't sound like AM radio. You make the assumption that people can't tell the difference between GOOD high gain and CRAP high gain. Most people can't, but then again... most can't tell the difference between GOOD clean and BAD clean either. But we're not talking about them, are we? We're talking about people that CAN tell the difference. You don't have to be Eric Johnson to hear subtleties in highly distorted tones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
!!METAL MATT!! Posted November 3, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 3, 2005 Metal Matt: Solid state Sunn power amp, you say? What kind is it? You may not need to build an entire amp. It might be possible to combine that with a preamp section of some sort and end up with the sound you want. Any references on what tone you're looking for? Well it's A SUN concert slave It has A TON of power and it's really effecient and its SUPPER LOUD It use to run my old monster sound system from the late 70's and trust me the thing was HUGE!!!!!! and it still had power left over but right now it only has the input sensitity I want it to have Gain,volume,Mid,tone, bass, clean and dirt and two more speaker outs, And maybe some kind of A gain boost Im in to death metal and black metal and I love the distortion on A line 6 !!METAL MATT!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovekraft Posted November 3, 2005 Report Share Posted November 3, 2005 OK, BM, you're all over the map on that last post, so I'm not even going to try to adres it point by point. However, a couple of things really stand out, so let's talk about them. First, and most ludicrous, is that silliness about using Radio Shack parts to build a tube amp, an obvious straw man, since da shack hasn't been mentioned and doesn't carry the necessary parts - they haven't even stocked tube sockets since the 70s. So much for that RS Marshall clone. Second, that slam at the Dual Rec - yeah, you're right, Metallica sounded lousy through them. But let's forget about what I think - we need your input! Please, tell us what kind of tube sockets will let us get a "real Metal" tone, and why the Xicon caps in a Diezl are superior to the Xicon caps in the bin at Radio Shack. What are these "bad" parts that I ostensibly recommended, what qualifies as "good". and why, specifically - enquiring minds want to know! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thegarehanman Posted November 3, 2005 Report Share Posted November 3, 2005 (edited) Lovekraft, watch out......someone's trolling. Edited November 3, 2005 by thegarehanman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Mariah Posted November 3, 2005 Report Share Posted November 3, 2005 Then replace "Radio Shack" with "Bob's House of Discount and Crappy Tube Amp Parts". The 'most ludicrous' thing is also the thing that has the absolute least to do with ANYTHING WHATSOEVER. The point is that Radio Shack is known for crappy components. Anyone capable of comprehending English should be able to figure out what I meant. The only instance of a Dual Rectifier showing up in a Metallica rig is in Hammet's current setup. http://www.encycmet.com/equipment/equipm.shtml In other words... St. Anger tone. That's why I said "Give me a Mark". As in "A Mesa/Boogie guitar amplifier of the Mark I-IV series". What kind of tube sockets? Good ceramic ones. Has nothing to do with tone, but I've seen too many melted plastic ones to take that chance. Difference in caps? If they're the same Xicon, then nothing. If you're comparing good Xicon caps to the cheapass "400 for $6" grab bags then you're more likely talking about a completely different construction which will undoubtedly lead to different tone (maybe better, maybe worse... who knows?). You're acting as if caps and resistors are the only components in an amp. They're not. You have to deal with transformers, potentiometers, wire, solder, the quality of your PCB/turrets/eyelets... I'm not one of those "silver mica caps, silver solder, and oxygen free stranded wire" weirdos, but I'm also not a "Screw it, it'll work" kind of guy. Amp construction is no different than guitar construction. Yeah you can get good sounds from lesser quality, but by spending a bit extra and carefully planning what components you're going to use then you will end up with a better sound. Im in to death metal and black metal and I love the distortion on A line 6 I have a Concert Lead head. I know how loud those little bastards can get. You should post over on the http://www.diypedals.com/ forum and see what they recommend. You should be able to get away with building a high gain pedal, following it with an EQ, then shoving it all in one package with the power amp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovekraft Posted November 3, 2005 Report Share Posted November 3, 2005 You're acting as if caps and resistors are the only components in an amp. They're not. You have to deal with transformers, potentiometers, wire, solder, the quality of your PCB/turrets/eyelets...And you're acting like there are a huge number of options for turrets, eyelets, potentiometers, wire, solder and tagboard materials, and that they somehow make a difference in the final tone - that is what I am disputing, and that is what you have failed to produce any evidence for, other than your esteemed opinion. Where (in the US/Canada) does one go to buy these inferior quality parts? Are the Keystone turrets that Hoffman sells somehow better than the Keystone turrets that Mouser sells? Is there a place that you can think of that sells only crappy amp parts? Are you saying that Taiwanese Alpha pots are in some way tonally inferior to CTS or CGE pots, and if so, in what way? Please, just one real-world example (and you can forget the sockets - ceramic is probably more durable, but there are plenty of Bakelite sockets from the 20s and 30s that are still in fine working order). It's obvious that you feel passionate about something, it's just not clear what it is you feel passionate about. At any rate, my point was (and is) that the standard amp-building techniques used by any decent tech are just as capable of producing a remarkable-sounding amp from industry-standard components as any special mil-spec or "magic mojo" techniques employed by any esoteric guru-types. If the components are good enough for Fender, the only thing standing between your design and custom amp tone nirvana is your own talent - the rest is all marketing hype! If you trust the guy to build you an amp, you should also be able to trust his parts selections. That's all I meant to imply, and that's all I'm ever going to have to say on this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
!!METAL MATT!! Posted November 3, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 3, 2005 all I want to know is how in the heck do i modify this head so it has distortion !!METAL MATT!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovekraft Posted November 3, 2005 Report Share Posted November 3, 2005 (edited) Sorry, Matt - just put a preamp with the kind of distortion you want in front of it! If you like Line 6 crunch, perhaps drive it with a Pod, or the distortion modeller - instant über-loud amp head. I like The SansAmp PSA-1, but it might not be your cup o' hemlock - there are definitely some screaming high-gain possibilities in there, but you might prefer something else. Edited November 3, 2005 by lovekraft Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
!!METAL MATT!! Posted November 3, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 3, 2005 Well the Problem with that is that because the Head only has input sensitity It flatens all sound going thru it, I would like to add volume, tone, Mid, bass, And Gain would be cool I would like the head to be self contained I started to COOL up the chassis it was ugly be for so I saned it down to the Metal and I love the way it looks http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v488/ZADOKGUITARS/Amp2.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v488/ZADOKGUITARS/Amp1.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v488/ZADOKGUITARS/Amp5.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v488/ZADOKGUITARS/Amp4.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v488/ZADOKGUITARS/Amp3.jpg !!METAL MATT!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Mariah Posted November 3, 2005 Report Share Posted November 3, 2005 That amp is nothing more than the power section from a Concert Lead. It's a power amp. It will amplify whatever you put in front of it. Put a distortion box in front of it and see what it sounds like. "Input sensitivity" is just a weirdly named VOLUME. It has nothing to do with tone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gripper Posted November 4, 2005 Report Share Posted November 4, 2005 Matt, this thread has me baffled. I thought you said you wanted to BUILD a metal amp. If you really just want to take a Sunn solid-state and make it distort, yoo really should listen to luvcraft. The 4-tube push-pull amps crunch quite well but are complex to build. The preamp procecessors are a great way to get a solidstate amp to sound like you wish it to. I thought you wanted to build an amp from your first post. No rock I misunderstood you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
!!METAL MATT!! Posted November 4, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 4, 2005 Matt, this thread has me baffled. I thought you said you wanted to BUILD a metal amp. If you really just want to take a Sunn solid-state and make it distort, yoo really should listen to luvcraft. The 4-tube push-pull amps crunch quite well but are complex to build. The preamp procecessors are a great way to get a solidstate amp to sound like you wish it to. I thought you wanted to build an amp from your first post. No rock I misunderstood you. Well ya one day here I wil be working with doug to build A BLACK METAL AMP But I want to Mod my sun amp in to some thing cool That amp is nothing more than the power section from a Concert Lead. It's a power amp. It will amplify whatever you put in front of it. Put a distortion box in front of it and see what it sounds like. "Input sensitivity" is just a weirdly named VOLUME. It has nothing to do with tone. ok so if I put it thru A good CAB and have A good pedal it should Kick but? !!METAL MATT!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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