Nitefly SA Posted March 6, 2006 Report Share Posted March 6, 2006 Very tempting to make something like this, especially since i can make an affordable sustainer...think what you can save in money and effort by not fretting...at all!!! A well played fretless is a very interesting sound and when you consider music outside the western chordal system, it does make some sense. Don't see too many fretted violins now do you...lol. That would really cut back on fret buzz aswell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Irizarry Posted March 6, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 6, 2006 As the old thread sinks into the sunset (might want to link the two) and this project i comes together...i don't know where to post now!...Anyway I found this over at www.unfretted.com Very Klien like...have to look into it a bit more looks almost like it's made of metal...and no pickguard and a diy tuning system. Very tempting to make something like this, especially since i can make an affordable sustainer...think what you can save in money and effort by not fretting...at all!!! A well played fretless is a very interesting sound and when you consider music outside the western chordal system, it does make some sense. Don't see too many fretted violins now do you...lol. As a project to test out your skills, not such a silly idea...certainly unique. Anyway, posted this here because of the obvious Klien influence and the minimalistic approach... pete If I'm not mistaken, this is a design by Chris Shaffer who can be found camped out at Kronosonic. He has his own forum at Kronosonic here.. If you look around, he has several headless designs he's done. I believe this guitar is wood but with a unique finish. Very interesting stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted March 6, 2006 Report Share Posted March 6, 2006 Well...there you go...have to put up a link to the DIY sustainer over there...lol. All the same...here is something interesting...a headless guitar tuner/tremolo kit interesting "Overlord of Music", can't argue with a brand name like that, can you! overloard of Music Trem...on ebay pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Irizarry Posted March 6, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 6, 2006 Well...there you go...have to put up a link to the DIY sustainer over there...lol. All the same...here is something interesting...a headless guitar tuner/tremolo kit interesting "Overlord of Music", can't argue with a brand name like that, can you! overloard of Music Trem...on ebay pete Yep, I came across that in the "early days" of my research - circa January 2006. The same company also has an alternative model that vaguely operates like the Steinberger S tremolo. Rather than pivot on knife-edges, it pivots on bearings. Well, at least the original one does. I contacted these folks and they were decidedly uncooperative about giving me information about these bridges. Simple stuff like who makes them, what are the dimensions and things of that nature were beyond their ability to answer in an email. Regardless, this other model did look interesting. Here's a look (and it doesn't have the "Overlord of Music" moniker - a plus in my book ) The likelihood is that I might consider this for a future project - that is if I have any success with this one. Then again, I prefer fixed bridges and ABM and ETS have headless models. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted March 6, 2006 Report Share Posted March 6, 2006 Really...I thought having "Overlord of Music" on it was a big plus...hehehe Yes, that one is better it would seem having rollers and everything. When you factor out the need to buy tuners and factor in the locking system and things...it seems pretty good...i wonder what it feels like to play? I actually like the guitar head tuner placement...how do you find tuning from the back of the guitar, the tuners always looked very close to me...are they easy enough to turn? Anyway, good to see they are available if people want them...not sure how the trem and tuning system would hold up, it looks kind of die-cast and i'm sure the overlord can't supply parts easy...still get's you thinking... hahaha...i see for $60 more on the black one they will throw in the rest of the guitar....with or without frets...hmmmmm pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Irizarry Posted March 6, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 6, 2006 Really...I thought having "Overlord of Music" on it was a big plus...hehehe Yes, that one is better it would seem having rollers and everything. When you factor out the need to buy tuners and factor in the locking system and things...it seems pretty good...i wonder what it feels like to play? I actually like the guitar head tuner placement...how do you find tuning from the back of the guitar, the tuners always looked very close to me...are they easy enough to turn? Anyway, good to see they are available if people want them...not sure how the trem and tuning system would hold up, it looks kind of die-cast and i'm sure the overlord can't supply parts easy...still get's you thinking... hahaha...i see for $60 more on the black one they will throw in the rest of the guitar....with or without frets...hmmmmm pete I find tuning at the back of the guitar feels just fine on my Hohner headless. I have rather large hands to go with being 6'3" and I've never really found it particularly crowded. In addition, it stays in tune very well and only needs very small adjustments along the way. With the double ball end strings, its far faster and easier to string up a guitar and tune it up. No winding necessary. The strings drop in and tune right up. Since there is no string wrapping around a conventional tuner, you don't run the risk of string slippage from a less than optimum wrap. There are a few disadvantages to double ball end strings but ways to mitigate that. First, they tend to be a bit pricey although in the U.S. there are plenty of reasonably priced vendors online. Plan ahead and its not a big deal. Second, you're not likely to walk into the local guitar shop and pick them up unless you live near one of those guitar megastores. Again, plan ahead. Third, there isn't a whole lot of variety in string gauges. This one is a bit tougher although I swear I came across a site which had single strings in a wide range of gauges - I'll have to dig around for that one. Currently, I use .010-.046 - a standard set. To further offset some of these disadvantages, Chris Shaffer came up with an alternative which I intend to incorporate into my own project. He uses a Kahler after-the-nut locking clamp. Thus, conventional strings can be used. Pull them through reasonably taut, clamp them and then finish tuning them at the bridge. Further advantages of the after-the-nut locking clamp include the use of whatever nut you want and not having to worry about finger board radius for the clamp. There are some additional advantages. First, the use of a Kahler style clamp means that I can easily adapt a conventional headstock neck for use as a headless. Put everything in place as you would with a conventional neck and then saw off everything above the locking clamp -no more worries about an original headstock design. Second, it will be easier for me to go with heavier bottom strings by taking advantage of conventional strings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Irizarry Posted March 10, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2006 Just a small update - my parts have shipped! I'm psyched. I'm looking forward to getting underway. Fortunately, I won't need to buy a ton of tools to get this done. My friend and neighbor happens to have just about everything I can think of! I mentioned the project to him a few weeks ago and he told me to use his workshop whenever I wanted. He and his family are only here for the weekends so the shop is fair game during the week. The only thing I can think of that's missing is a router table. It seems like a far better way to tackle this. I'm thinking I'll buy a small one - nothing to fancy and contribute it to the workshop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Irizarry Posted March 11, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2006 Earlier this week, I decided to give a go at starting a blog to detail the build process as well as my research and thoughts on ergonomic design. The site is Building The Ergonomic Guitar. Obviously, its still developing but I figured I'd throw it out there. I'd appreciate comments and thoughts about it. Oh, and I thought I'd just mention how interesting this whole process of attempting a guitar build has been. I've learned so much already in preparation for it and I'm even starting to develop a skill or two with woodworking and shop tools. Now I'm taking a stab at my first blog and eventually I'll have to learn to solder too. I'm going to have either a great big migraine by the end of this process, mad skillz or both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Irizarry Posted March 11, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2006 Nice design. Quick question, are you related to a Natasha Irizarry? BTW - Who is Natasha Irizarry? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perhellion Posted March 30, 2006 Report Share Posted March 30, 2006 Any updates? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
verhoevenc Posted April 24, 2006 Report Share Posted April 24, 2006 Over one year later it's ALIVE!!!! Thought I'd bring this back to life with a couple comments and questions: Did you ever buy that overlord of music bridge?? How is it? After a little research I've found that this Overlord Of Music company not only makes these but makes normal tremolo bridges as well as... and get this "Floyd Rose Liscenced" tremolos. So if Floyd rose is liscencing out to them... they can't be TOTAL junk?! Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Irizarry Posted June 10, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 10, 2006 Over one year later it's ALIVE!!!! Thought I'd bring this back to life with a couple comments and questions: Did you ever buy that overlord of music bridge?? How is it? After a little research I've found that this Overlord Of Music company not only makes these but makes normal tremolo bridges as well as... and get this "Floyd Rose Liscenced" tremolos. So if Floyd rose is liscencing out to them... they can't be TOTAL junk?! Chris Hey Chris: Sorry I've been away from the forum for so long. Right around the middle of March I started suffering from very bad tendonitis in my right hand and had to make some drastic changes in order to get it under control. I'm an IT professional and spend the day in front of systems pounding away at keyboards and mice. I had to cut way back on anything that would stress my hands. I stopped practicing on the guitar and cut way back on my computer related activities. I finally feel I have this under control so I expect to revive this project shortly. As to the bridge, I contacted the Ebay vendor and was more than disappointed with the lack of information they provided. I was a bit skeptical about it as a result. That left me with trying to find an alternate source for a bridge. In addition, I was still looking at my neck options. Steinberger necks are not cheap and unfortunately my little Hohner headless is a neck-through. Ultimately, I've decided that the cheapest route is to purchase the cheapest Steinberger bolt-on guitar I can get (typically around $310 new) and use its bridge and neck. I'm not quite ready to tackle a neck otherwise I might have gone with the hideously named "Overlord of Music" bridge - maybe a later project. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregP Posted June 11, 2006 Report Share Posted June 11, 2006 I saw the coolest ergonomic guitar on Thursday. Much like the Klein, but with refinements and improvements. Played like a dream, and the luthier (guitarist for the band OHN) himself was amazed and surprised by how amazingly it has held up considering it was meant as a prototype only. If I heard correctly (we were talking in a bar), it doesn't even have a truss rod. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Irizarry Posted June 11, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 11, 2006 I saw the coolest ergonomic guitar on Thursday. Much like the Klein, but with refinements and improvements. Played like a dream, and the luthier (guitarist for the band OHN) himself was amazed and surprised by how amazingly it has held up considering it was meant as a prototype only. If I heard correctly (we were talking in a bar), it doesn't even have a truss rod. Greg Interesting - it certainly looks like a Klein. Go to the galleries section of the OHN Band site. You can catch a small glipse in a handful of shots. It certainly looks like a Klein. Greg - can you elaborate on what refinements and improvements you saw in this design? Did the luthier mention any place where there might be more information? Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Irizarry Posted June 28, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 28, 2006 I've been debating this for the last several days as I've started to revisit various areas of this project. One particular thing that I've been thinking about is pickup location. I'm interested in obtaining a Strat like sound. I have Fender Lace pickups so that's in order. However, a headless 24 fret neck would push the neck pickup out of the typical Strat position SO I'm considering going with a conventional 22 fret neck and Strat type bridge with the Klein body. As a result, I would have my neck pickup in the correct position relative to the overall scale of the guitar. In addition, doing away with the headless design would make it possible to take advantage of a greater selection of neck and bridge options at lower costs when compared to headless guitar components. What do you think? Am I over thinking the neck position issue? Should I stick with the headless design? Does the use of a conventional neck and bridge sound like a reasonable idea? THANKS! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregP Posted June 29, 2006 Report Share Posted June 29, 2006 Robert, The primary area of interest was the upper "bout" or whatever you want to call it in this kind of design. On the Klein, it connects at a higher fret than for Chris's. If I'm not mistaken, the armrest area is a bit larger. It's also chambered for weight (dunno about the Klein). Non-ergonomically speaking, it features nice electronics, too-- Bennedetto pickups, though when I first looked, I thought they were Bartolinis. I bet Chris would be happy to provide any information to you directly. There's a contact link on his website: http://www.forshage.com/ We didn't have time to discuss TOOOoooo many of the specifics, but the impression he left me with is that the main thing "borrowed" from the Klein guitar (other than the obvious overal similarity in shape) is the leg rest area, which is nearly identical I believe. As for pickup position, I feel that you're overthinking it; however, there are enough people who feel that 22 vs 24 frets is a big issue that it's not as clear-cut as one man (me) believing it's not a huge deal. I'm also of the opinion that upper fret access and even upper frets in general are highly overrated. I almost never go above the 17th fret to begin with, feeling that a guitar's strength and tone are better captured by the middle frets. So, I'm pretty biased when it comes to these sorts of things. The short answer: stay with 24 frets if it's going to ruin your whole plan to do otherwise, else go with 22 frets because the pickup position is probably at least a LITTLE more valuable than 2 measly frets (ie. 1 full tone... not much...). Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickguard Posted June 29, 2006 Report Share Posted June 29, 2006 I actually find it painful (to the ears) going really far up the neck...so I agree with Greg there. I'm using a 24-fret neck on my guitar because of its double-cutaway design--I need a slightly longer neck, for more stability at the joint and balance in the overall design. My thinking is this: it's a mistake trying to build a guitar to sound like another guitar. If you really want a strat, just get a strat. If you've ever seen my Bocaster, all I did was modify a telecaster body shape. The guitar sounds exactly like a Telecaster, because that's what it is. You could easily do the same thing with a strat body-- cut off and rebuild the wings into the more ergonomic shape you're looking for, and you're there. Of course, you wouldn't have a 24 fret neck, but you can't have everything! Now, since I never play the neck pickup on my strat, I wouldn't personally worry about that issue. And frankly, I think it would sound much better if the neck pickup were a little closer to the bridge. For what my opinion is worth (since I'm no expert): most of the sound of a strat comes from things like the pickup design and all that metal in the bridge, the scale length contributes to it too, and wood choice has a bit to do with it as well. But it's especially in the way the pickups are built, they way they're positioned together, and the way they're wired together. In the end, your guitar is going to sound like YOUR guitar. If all goes well, you're going to like it. But I wouldn't compromise on your design choices-- if you really want a headless guitar and 24 frets, you should build that. A lot about what makes a guitar so good is the way it looks and feels to you. Sound can always be modified. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Irizarry Posted June 29, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 29, 2006 As for pickup position, I feel that you're overthinking it; however, there are enough people who feel that 22 vs 24 frets is a big issue that it's not as clear-cut as one man (me) believing it's not a huge deal. Understood. This sounds like yet another one of those nuance type things that we tend to get hung up on. Thanks for the input! My thinking is this: it's a mistake trying to build a guitar to sound like another guitar. If you really want a strat, just get a strat. I think both you and Greg are right - I got hung up on a detail and let it start to sway me away from the overall design. Now, since I never play the neck pickup on my strat, I wouldn't personally worry about that issue. And frankly, I think it would sound much better if the neck pickup were a little closer to the bridge. In the end, your guitar is going to sound like YOUR guitar. If all goes well, you're going to like it. But I wouldn't compromise on your design choices-- if you really want a headless guitar and 24 frets, you should build that. A lot about what makes a guitar so good is the way it looks and feels to you. Sound can always be modified. Thanks for setting me straight. Your comments and Greg's have helped me to see past this as an issue and focus on the original design concerns - specifically having a guitar with ergonomic elements. As you state, "sound can always be modified" and since I'll be using an alder body and single coil pickups I shouldn't be too far off the sound to begin with. Ultimately, I'll be happy to have a guitar that's comfortable to me. Maybe when I'm done I'll throw a sustainer in there too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badsnap Posted June 29, 2006 Report Share Posted June 29, 2006 Hey there...I've read this entire thread with much interest but haven't chimed in yet (mostly because I'm only current just now!!). So...I think you should stick with your original plans (if you are able to) and don't worry about the PU placement. I agree with Mickguard...create a unique sound...if you want a strat, build a strat. I can't wait to see the finished product and hear how it sounds!! Very cool and different...Rog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Irizarry Posted June 30, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 30, 2006 Hey there...I've read this entire thread with much interest but haven't chimed in yet (mostly because I'm only current just now!!). So...I think you should stick with your original plans (if you are able to) and don't worry about the PU placement. I agree with Mickguard...create a unique sound...if you want a strat, build a strat. I can't wait to see the finished product and hear how it sounds!! Very cool and different...Rog Hey thanks a lot for the feedback. I think sticking with the original project is the way to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pr3Va1L Posted July 1, 2006 Report Share Posted July 1, 2006 I think that if you position your neck pickup right up against the fretboard, you shouldn't be THAT far off the usual strat neck position... maybe a few mm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Irizarry Posted July 1, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 1, 2006 I think that if you position your neck pickup right up against the fretboard, you shouldn't be THAT far off the usual strat neck position... maybe a few mm. That's my current thinking as well. Thanks! I'll start making some progress on this project very soon. I'll be going on vacation for a few days soon but start to work on the body thereafter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Irizarry Posted July 21, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2006 Ok. After getting through a wonderful week on vacation in the Dominican Republic followed by two of the toughest weeks I've had at work, I finally had a chance to inch forward on this project. Today I ordered a router through Amazon.com. I got a great price on the Dewalt 618B3 2.25 hp router with 3 bases - fixed, plunge and d-handle. For those interested, you can see Amazon's description here: DEWALT DW618B3 2-1/4 HP 3-Base Router Kit . While that's in the works, I hope to have a bit of time to get the body cut out with a jigsaw. Stay tuned... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Irizarry Posted August 22, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2006 A little progress - I made a second attempt at a template and I'm much happier with this one. The curves are more fair and the edges are pretty square. I'll be proceeding with this one for the body. I also added a new post to my blog called Making The Ergonomic Guitar Template where I detail some of the steps and thoughts that went into making the template. Apart from this being my first attempt at a guitar, I'm also a newcomer to woodworking. I thought it might be helpful to other newbies to see the lead up, thought processes and steps taken by another newbie. Other than that, not too much to report. Next stop is the rough cut of the body blank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Irizarry Posted September 11, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 11, 2006 Hi Everyone: Last night I cut out the body for the Klein project. Here is an image of it with the template sitting on top of it to illustrate where I left off. (There are a few other images in my latest blog post to Building The Ergonomic Guitar: Next stop is flush trimming with the router... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.