Nitefly SA Posted March 2, 2006 Report Share Posted March 2, 2006 I am in the process of planing my parker fly build, and i was in the auto store yesterday checking out the fiber glass stuff and saw this fiber cloth and it looks much like the carbon fiber on parkers, that led me to thinking i could make it a neck through and put that on the back, would that add some support to the neck joint, it wont be as weak as a real parkers but it will be fairly small and so it would need more support, also it would look really cool.also, would it adhere to the body/neck? would i need to glue it after it hardens? thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Irizarry Posted March 2, 2006 Report Share Posted March 2, 2006 Hey Nitefly - what exactly is this stuff you saw at the auto store? I know that in wooden boat building, you would use fiberglass coated in epoxy resin to create extra strength. Done correctly, the stuff is practically transparent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soapbarstrat Posted March 2, 2006 Report Share Posted March 2, 2006 The green fiberglass resin jelly that I used long ago (along with white fiberglass cloth) adhered extremely well to wood. I used it to repair a shattered headstock (shattered from being whacked full force like a baseball bat against a brick wall ). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unclej Posted March 2, 2006 Report Share Posted March 2, 2006 i've had a little experience with fiberglass like you're describing. you first paint your epoxy on the surface that you're putting the fiberglass sheets on, then apply the sheet and then squeegie it off fairly smooth..after that hardens you then you apply more epoxy to fill the grain. it's messy and takes some getting used to before you get a smooth application. i honestly don't think that it would add much stability or strength to a project because even after it's completelyl cured it's relatively flexable unless several sheets are applied. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nitefly SA Posted March 2, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2006 both the cloth and the resin were by bondo, i was also looking at the "jelly" stuff, the cloth im talking about is white and looks kind of like nylon (not womens, like straps) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuitarGuy Posted March 2, 2006 Report Share Posted March 2, 2006 i've had a little experience with fiberglass like you're describing. you first paint your epoxy on the surface that you're putting the fiberglass sheets on, then apply the sheet and then squeegie it off fairly smooth..after that hardens you then you apply more epoxy to fill the grain. it's messy and takes some getting used to before you get a smooth application. i honestly don't think that it would add much stability or strength to a project because even after it's completelyl cured it's relatively flexable unless several sheets are applied. Correction, very stong! Hockey sticks are made exactly that way. Aside most resin's are not clear. They have an amber tint. But they can be tinted with polyester based dyes to get any color you want. The resin gives off isocyanates equvalent to 2 part poly. And the glass fibres are deadly to your lungs. Other than that its pretty straight forward to apply. The resin hardener ratio needs to be exact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nitefly SA Posted March 2, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2006 I have a respirator mask, will that protect me from the fibers? where do you get the dye, i want it do be a dark grey/black. thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuitarGuy Posted March 2, 2006 Report Share Posted March 2, 2006 Alluminite Craft casting All of the blacks i've seen are opaque. I have yet to find a transparent one. Keep in mind these dyes are made for each brand of resin so if you decide to mix with another brand resin like bondo. I'd do a test run first. Fibres yes, the respirator isn't going to do crap for isocyanates. And wear nitrile gloves and clothes you plan to toss. If you decide to try this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wardd Posted March 2, 2006 Report Share Posted March 2, 2006 Here's an idea for an option to working with fiberglass. Back in the day, I was the Pro-Shop dude in a bowling alley. We use an epoxy refered to as "Ball Plug" to fill the holes before redrilling a ball. It is gin clear and doesn't have many of the hazardous properties of polyester resins. It has a long working time, 6 - 8 hours and you can stain / dye it with paint or dyes made for the stuff. It is super strong and not as brittle as polyester. You could go to a local pro-shop and ask if they would sell you some. It usually comes in two parts so take a couple small jars with you. You could also see if they have the dyes that go with it. Just a thought, but in my book, this stuff ranks right up there with duct tape on the useful index. Be Cool, d ward Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nitefly SA Posted March 2, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2006 well i guess ill abandon the fiber glass idea since i dont want to die and i would probably forget to take off my clothes or put on my gloves just once or something. a liquid (like ball pug) would be good, because then i can just paint it on and not have to worry obout it sitting flat and blending into the rest of the body d ward- are there any brands or is it jus ball plug? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wardd Posted March 2, 2006 Report Share Posted March 2, 2006 Don't remember the brand names there are a couple, any pro-shop guy would know from "ball plug". Now, I may of misunderstood what you were trying to do. When you say fiberglass, I 'm thinking of using fiberglass cloth and replacing the usual polyester resin with the epoxy ball plug. i.e. Epoxyglass. Be Cool, d ward Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nitefly SA Posted March 2, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2006 oh, that would still work, so, its stronger and less deadly? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wardd Posted March 2, 2006 Report Share Posted March 2, 2006 Probably just as strong, but more flexible and yes much nicer to work with. Unless, you have alergic reaction problems with epoxy. d ward Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyB7539 Posted March 2, 2006 Report Share Posted March 2, 2006 Man I work with fiberglass all the time, considering I do custom car audio for a living... it's far from deadly, that is unless you get it in your mouth or something.... if I get it on my hands I just use acetone to take it off.... Anyways, if you are looking for a resin that is clear you can go to www.uscomposites.com and under resins you can find the surfboard resin and use it... Here is a warning though. Unlike epoxys that you use to form carbon fiber, fiberglass resin NEVER STOPS SHRINKING.... There are resins that are LESS resistant to shrinkage, but they all shrink a little... I would just use carbon fiber, which you can also find on that site....if you are just laying it on wood, you wouldn't have to vacuum bag it.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuitarGuy Posted March 2, 2006 Report Share Posted March 2, 2006 Man I work with fiberglass all the time, considering I do custom car audio for a living... it's far from deadly, that is unless you get it in your mouth or something.... if I get it on my hands I just use acetone to take it off.... Come back in 30 years and tell me the same thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyB7539 Posted March 2, 2006 Report Share Posted March 2, 2006 Well... Actually since I have been working with it for 15 years and am not dead yet, I suppose I am already half way there.... It's no worse than working with any wood... Of course there are basic precautions which are no brainers, like you wouldn't paint a guitar inside without a respirator, so don't work with fiberglass inside without a respirator, or at least a mask. Also if you don't want the stuff on your hands, wear gloves... It's not rocket science bro.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nitefly SA Posted March 2, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2006 wait, you're supposed to wear a mask if you spray inside? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyB7539 Posted March 2, 2006 Report Share Posted March 2, 2006 Well yeah... that is if you don't wanna get all woozy feeling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattia Posted March 3, 2006 Report Share Posted March 3, 2006 You don't want to take sandpaper, or even a saw to wood without good breathing protection, period. Planes and chisels, you're OK, but as soon as the dust gets any finer/any power tools get involved, it's time for respiratory protection. And you ALWYAS wear a respirator when spraying, doesn't matter if it's nitro, waterbased, whether you're inside or outside. And epoxy/fibreglass resins? Sensitizers, last I checked, so you want to limit exposure to them as much as possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maiden69 Posted March 3, 2006 Report Share Posted March 3, 2006 (edited) Man I work with fiberglass all the time, considering I do custom car audio for a living... it's far from deadly, that is unless you get it in your mouth or something.... if I get it on my hands I just use acetone to take it off.... Come back in 30 years and tell me the same thing. My neigbohr in PR is 75 yrs old, and worked 45yrs at a fiberglass factory called Duramas, making pools, bathtubs, and the most important, Manx Dunne buggie copies... and still alive and kicking... and 40 yrs ago there were no laws about respirators or safety hazards about the fumes. I have been playing with the stuff since 15, so I'm 9 yrs from your 30... Everything that evaporates or create fumes qhile curing is hazardous and should not be taken lightly, but there are somethings that are not as dangerous as other. I will never say that working with fiberglass resin is as hazardous as poly painting. The code for working with fiberglass only requieres a well ventilated area (have you been to an auto body shop? All the bondo and glass work is done on open bays), not like painting that you have to have a booth. Everything is dangerous, even taking tylenol or walking down the street, is all in how much you take care of your own safety. Also on the matting, the woven one is week and bulky. If you want a strong joint, you need to use the stranded version. just paint the area with the resin, soak the matt in resin and apply. Then use a brush soaked with resin and tap on the matt to eliminate all the bubbles. I have done some work on car stereos like TonyB7539 and costom intake for cars. The ideal on your situation will be to use carbon fiber, but there are a few things that you need, and a vaccum press is the most important to get. Also carbon is stronger than glass by weight. Edited March 3, 2006 by Maiden69 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattia Posted March 3, 2006 Report Share Posted March 3, 2006 My neigbohr in PR is 75 yrs old, and worked 45yrs at a fiberglass factory called Duramas, making pools, bathtubs, and the most important, Manx Dunne buggie copies... and still alive and kicking... and 40 yrs ago there were no laws about respirators or safety hazards about the fumes. I have been playing with the stuff since 15, so I'm 9 yrs from your 30... That's a somewhat spurious argument, though; much in line with 'my grandpappy smoked 2 packs a day and died healthy at 99'. It has exactly no value in terms of evaluating the safety of something. Sure, spraying (atomizing finish and solvents) needs better ventilation than playing with fibreglass and/or epoxy resins, but you should minimize exposure to both by wearing adequate breathing protection and skin protection, because it's cheap, and it might help. A quick medline search reveals several articles and case studies, and a large cohort study finding no association between fiberglass work and increased risk of lung cancer, but quite a lot of articles on allergic reactions of various severity associated with epoxy and fiberglass resins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maiden69 Posted March 3, 2006 Report Share Posted March 3, 2006 well due to the fact that he hand laid fiber for the first 15 yrs of his career, and after that the industry started using the spray method, and never used any respirator until the last 5 yrs, from 1990-1995 I could say that it is either pretty safe or he was just lucky like George Burns was (many yrs drinking and smokin to day of such an old age) Some people are lucky or blessed with great health and others might get a light contact with any substance that they are alergic to and die in a matter of minutes... kinda like what you mentioned above, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuitarGuy Posted March 3, 2006 Report Share Posted March 3, 2006 (have you been to an auto body shop? All the bondo and glass work is done on open bays Thats really funny you should mention that considering I grew up in one. Played with primer dust. The whole deal. I've never had an alergic reaction to any of it. But.....My old man has been in the business since he was 14 he's on permanant disability. For bone cancer. And hes worked in a fibreglass shop for about 5 years while he was living in Quebec. Making everything from fenders to flowerpots. And he dosn't smoke or drink. And my grand father a blacksmith turned autobody. Died of liver failure. Read into it all you want but its a russian roulette regardless. As far as the data, actual undustrial fibreglass is fairly new. Invented in 38 and not in any real production until the 50's-60's. The long term effects data has not even surfaced yet. I never said don't do it I just said be careful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyB7539 Posted March 3, 2006 Report Share Posted March 3, 2006 [ The ideal on your situation will be to use carbon fiber, but there are a few things that you need, and a vaccum press is the most important to get. Also carbon is stronger than glass by weight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted March 3, 2006 Report Share Posted March 3, 2006 I got an interest in using alternative materials such as glass and started a thread last year on it. This is a quote from the first post, clicking the little pink arrow will take you to it. Basically a bunch of links...good to see some of the topic is of interest again lately both in this thread and others... Hi...if you've clicked on this you have, like me, an interest in the topic...or you need more practice with a mouse I thought I'd start a thread that would collect together peoples ideas or experiences with different materials for guitar building... I know there are lot's of information in the PG forum on different ideas so, if and when people find them, post them here. For instance...Pine is fairly universally damned as a "tonewood" yet Hyunsu has made some beautiful creations that he reports sound great: hyunsu's pine creations Not only that, but he has used alternative neck timbers to good effect. Where I live (in Australia) Merbu, which he used for making necks, is commonly found for decking material and could easily and cheaply be planed into laminations for the purpose. Likewise Jarrah is very hard and has been used for fingerboards and has a really deep red colour. But I've seen some fabulous metal guitars...like Metal Carver's: Metal Carver's Aluminium Body with Graphite Neck these are soposed to have an incredible tone. How about this tutorial from jrhilton on using composite materials: Making a composite (graphite) neck But don't restrict yourselves to the PG site. I'm sure you've come across things of interest elsewhere...perhaps on comercial sites like this: Reverend Guitar Construction I've heard these sound pretty good. Maybe you've played some of these alternativley built instruments and have an opinion/critisism. Anyway...that's the idea...to gather together various bits of information, experiences or opinion in the one place! psw The thread by jrhilton above, right here at PG was very good on making carbon epoxy necks (hidden away in the acoustic section as I recall). I have had some experience with fibre glass and epoxy in boat building. There are always safety concerns, as there are with any material (check out the pinned wood toxicity thread for instance)...but it is amazing stuff. Epoxy is not cheap, much domestic fibreglass is actually supposed to be stiff and polyester resin allows for this, a good epoxy will be much dearer. If you find a proper glass supplier, you will see all different grades and weaves of glass and other fibres. You could even more domestic materials. A thin, properly wetted out glass will be pretty much invisible if done right (it's glass right!) but it will take a bit of practice. My boat is plywood with glass seams and has taken a pounding in a hostile environment. The glass is the main support for all these seams and done without any vacuums and such...and no real experience of the stuff! As for vacuuming...you could try one of those storage bags that shrink clothes down for storage and a domestic vac. Not ideal, but could ensure a suitable pressure on an item such as a neck, maybe even a whole guitar! have fun, build safe... pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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