Pickup Placement--tradition Or Science?

[Sparky]

Well, unlike most things in the audio realm, this actually has some merit.

Check out this link about string vibrations on a guitar:

http://www.harmony-central.com/Guitar/harmonics.html

Ever notice that plucking an open string at the 12th fret sounds different than when plucking between the pickups? Welcome to the wonderful land of harmonics. Just think about how a string vibrates and the rest is easy.

If you pluck the string in the middle (12th fret on an open string), you eliminate all even ordered harmonics. Scroll down to the last image on the page for a perfect example.

Well, how does this relate to the pickup placement? If you pluck the strings toward the bridge end of the guitar like most people, you are letting the string vibrate with many even and odd harmonics. Most of which (through superposition) has many nodes. A node is an area of the string that does not vibrate - for that particular harmonic frequency. Don't get me wrong, Im not saying there is some magic spot on the string that stands still (as long as the fundamental is still present, the entire string will always move), but there are areas that don't vibrate as much as others.

Remember those high school physics experiements with a strobe light and a vibrating string? Same deal. The strobe light allows you to see the way the string vibrates.

Now we recall that a pickup works by moving a conductor (the string) through a magnetic field (pickup magnets) to induce a current in the pickup coil that can then be amplified by your amp. Since we know certain parts of the string will have more/different harmonics, it makes sense that the pickup position along the string will affect the sound. Imagine putting your pickup right on a node - you essentially eliminate that harmonic.

Now, knowing WHERE to put a pickup to sound best is completley different (and a matter of personal taste) than knowing a pickup will sound different in different locations.

We generally put a pickup at the 2nd harmonic (24th fret) or close to it, to pick up the even order harmonics. I am not positive, but I would bet the bridge pickup is located very close to a 3rd harmonic. This would give the most "extemes" (short of having a pickup mounted in the neck at the 12th fret ).

Keep in mind that as the harmonics increase, their magnitude decreases significantly from the fundamental (no, you aren't hearing that 27th harmonic).

I'll leave it as an exercies to figure out what happens when you "play a harmonic" at the 12th fret.

[psw]

If you look at a Strat, the pickups are at fret positions #24 (neck), #36 (mid) and ~#48 (bridge) when the strings are open. As long as you are playing within the first few frets of the neck (#1-3), the idea is that the pickups will catch the appropriate harmonics.

I like all the positions on my Strat....I am a mad pickup switcher, depending on the feel of the song.

And the benefit of positioning a pickup under a harmonic... is what??

A-ha....exactly

I spent a while pondering this for the sustainer...which is an extreme reverse pickup in principle, so this should be vital to performance...right!!! It came to my attention when it was suggested that the driver had to be mounted up near the neck because of the harmonics and potential swing of the string...hmmmm...wrong!

So, after much a-do, I have to say...those harmonics are only relavant to open notes. As soon as you start fretting the string, the effective length of the string changes, as does the nodes or harmonics along the string, and so, under the pickup.

Towards the bridge end of the string the "harmonics" get closer and these are sensed more. Conversely, the neck position generally has a more fundumental sound to it (less dominant background harmonics). However, when you fret up around the 22nd fret, the effective end of the string now very close to the neck pickup and again the harmonics more complex (ie as if there was a pickup close to the effective nut). It is not as prominant an effect because the note is generally so high that the background harmonics are also several octaves higher and difficult for the ear to hear.

Now, if you play a lot of open chords and low riffing then it may well be that the complex bridge harmonics will make some of those background harmonics a little discordant (or "strident") within a voicing...however the neck pickup may be a little too muddy and thick (especially with a little dirt on it)...so the mid or somewhere other than convention may be just right in that scenario. If you want a bright cutting complex singlenote stuff and above the 12th fret....the bridge is perhaps more appropriate. With a clean tone and you want a bit of separation, a-la jazz...then the neck pup is perhaps your friend there.

I don't think that there is a best practice convention, but the standardized positions give a more predictable response...so they become convention. There are differences in the placement of pickups and some will be better choices than others...for different styles of playing.

Also, don't forget a lot of variation can be had by variations in picking technique...probably more than can be offered by a simple selector....

pete

[Mickguard]

The Turner guitar is 'cheating' --he's got an EQ built in there.

This discussion (and Robert Irizarry's ergonomic guitar project) has me looking more at my picking location too ---because there's no question that plays a big role in tone.

Like I said, with the telecaster, I find myself picking the strings pretty well behind the P90 in the middle but still well ahead of the bridge pickup.

On my 350, however, the pick falls smack dab in the center of the middle pickup --which means that if I want to play the pickup there, I have to find a new way to pick. Or adapt the guitar so that I can reposition my hand.

What I notice with the telecaster is that the pinky finger side of my hand hooks against the back of the bridge plate --because of those nasty saddle height adjustment screws--but rests on the surface of the guitar. Hooking my hand like that effectively shifts my hand back and places my pick in the 'sweet spot'.

On my 350 (and my Melody Maker, which has a compensated wraparound), the bridge stands up taller. So instead of hooking against the bridge, I've always rested the butt of my hand on top of the bridge, and the hand doesn't touch the surface of the guitar. Which places the pick forward --forcing me to pick directly above the placement of the middle pickup.

BUT, right now I'm experimenting with hooking my hand behind the bridge--and voila, that places the pick behind the middle pickup. I have to lower/straighten the neck a bit --I've tended to play with it angled up pretty high (toward my shoulder). The telecaster naturally seems to want to be played straight.

Now, I think I'd still be more comfortable with some sort of wrist-rest on the 350 --first I'm going to experiment with changing the bridge (currently a Badass that rides up high in the studs) for a lower profiled wraparound. But I can see something like a small, carved piece of wood that fits behind the bridge.

I can definitely understand the advantages of recessing a TOM now, in terms of playing ergonomics--you can rest your hand on the top of the guitar.

Now, all of this may seem like a bit of rambling to the rest of you --but there's a reason why I started building guitars at the same time I started taking lessons... I'm still very much in the process of examining my technique, and all the different aspects of that.

[Mattia]

What I notice with the telecaster is that the pinky finger side of my hand hooks against the back of the bridge plate --because of those nasty saddle height adjustment screws--but rests on the surface of the guitar. Hooking my hand like that effectively shifts my hand back and places my pick in the 'sweet spot'.

On my 350 (and my Melody Maker, which has a compensated wraparound), the bridge stands up taller. So instead of hooking against the bridge, I've always rested the butt of my hand on top of the bridge, and the hand doesn't touch the surface of the guitar. Which places the pick forward --forcing me to pick directly above the placement of the middle pickup.

BUT, right now I'm experimenting with hooking my hand behind the bridge--and voila, that places the pick behind the middle pickup. I have to lower/straighten the neck a bit --I've tended to play with it angled up pretty high (toward my shoulder). The telecaster naturally seems to want to be played straight.

Now, I think I'd still be more comfortable with some sort of wrist-rest on the 350 --first I'm going to experiment with changing the bridge (currently a Badass that rides up high in the studs) for a lower profiled wraparound. But I can see something like a small, carved piece of wood that fits behind the bridge.

I can definitely understand the advantages of recessing a TOM now, in terms of playing ergonomics--you can rest your hand on the top of the guitar.

Now, all of this may seem like a bit of rambling to the rest of you --but there's a reason why I started building guitars at the same time I started taking lessons... I'm still very much in the process of examining my technique, and all the different aspects of that.

I'm having problems figuring out exactly what it is you're doing here; my picking hand doesn't tend to 'rest' on anything much, unless I'm palm-muting, sometimes (on an acoustic) on the bridge pins, ie right behind the saddles. On an electric, that tends to be on the bridge, pretty much, behind the break point if I don't want to mute. I play quite percussively, so a slap/mute the strings quite frequently, and because I play a lot of acoustic, I'm very aware that the right-hand technique has effect on sustain and tone (heel of the hand on the bridge = mutes vibrations), and the same goes for most electrics; anchor your right hand to the bridge, and you'll absorb some of the vibrational energy (I'm not a lead player, mind, nor do I care to be one). A piece of wood right behind the bridge would, for me, place things too far back, look a bit off, and I'm not sure I see how it helps technique. I also can't picture how you'd play resting your hand (which I mean to take not your fingers, but the palm/heel) on any part of the body.

[Mickguard]

Like I said, I'm still trying to figure most of this out...but yeah, it's hard for me to say what I'm doing exactly, because when I'm playing I'm not really focusing all that much on where my right hand is --obviously it moves around a lot.

Back when all I ever tried to play was rhythm guitar, my hand used to float above the strings, i.e., didn't rest on the bridge or the body.

But now that I'm trying to develop some kind of lead style, it seems to make sense to anchor my hand somehow --if only because there's no way to be accurate when my hand is floating like that (and it's probably part of the reason I was never able to move into more of a lead guitar style).

But yeah, now that I look at it, with this guitar (I've got the Rocket strapped on...been playing that for the last time) I'm able to plant my pinky --actually, it hooks against the edge of the raised part of the pickguard. So my hand kind of hovers over the bridge instead of resting against it. And that gets the pick in the right postion.

I'll figure this all out one of these days...at least by the time I'm 100...

[marksound]

Your avatar told me to tell you to quit overanalyzing stuff. Shut up and play yer guitar.

[Mickguard]

Shut up and play yer guitar.

Aye aye captain!

[Petros]

This was an older post, but after reading it I must say this was a great discussion, and something I have also pondered given I'm probably going to have to make a custom pickguard for my Squire Stagemaster to install three single-coils (it came with two stock humbuckers which aren't bad, and they're nice and quiet, but they're too sterile).

This is what I was thinking when it comes to placement of pickups, at least for the three single coil configuration: When pickups are developed and tested by the manufacturer they are likely to be placed in the conventional positions in a conventionally cut pickguard for sound evaluation. Hence, whatever sound the manufacturer claims each pickup will have has this factor to contend with. If you change the positions too much, your tone will vary from the sound the manufacturer intended, but there's nothing "wrong" about that. In fact, given all the other factors that might affect tonality (including even string guage), I'm guessing unless you have the exact same conditions in each guitar the tone of a set of pickups will always vary somewhat, even if not completely audible.

Now, if someone can explain to me why on a traditional Fender strat the bridge pickup is installed on an angle (with the pickup further away from the bridge for the lower tone strings), I'll be happy.

Edited March 13, 2008 by Petros

[joshvegas]

http://www.rockandrollweekend.com/Nigel%20-%20top.jpg

nigel tufnel obviously had the same question but nobody could answer it!

[pauseflash]

I dont really post much here, but this one kinda made me bite.

Little story, World Famous golfer, is getting interviewed. Some reporter asked him what kind of golf ball he used. His response:

"Lady, if the type of golf ball you use makes a difference on if you win or not playing golf, you need to be the pro.. not me"

I love that, and it rings true here. I understand from a building stand point that the placement becomes important. But I firmly believe you should play "Comfortably" and not worry about the location so much of your picking hand. It's such a little thing in such a huge mix. Room acoustics, Amp selection, Cables, Strings, Tuner used even, I would bet would have just as much as an effect on tone.

To each his own by all means, but if where your hand is placed on the guitar really makes that huge of a difference in "your tone", I need to hear you play. Cause I would hope you are that amazing.

I really dont mean to offend anyone, but sometimes (Myself included) we get so caught up in little things like this as players, we forget the big picture. Just Play.....

[Mickguard]

I don't feel like reading through the whole thread again, so I might be repeating myself.

One of the biggest diifferences in sound I get is from changing picks. I usually like Fender heavies for the electric -- but if I want to soften the sound, I change to Dunlop nylon mediums -- the change in tone is dramatic. I'm able to get a more acoustic sound (without sounding like an acoustic), and it helps to bring out the lows when I'm playing more of a bass type riff. Easier to change picks than to change guitars.

[Dirge for november]

I've read through this thread, quite interesting!

Now a question to see if what I learned out of this is correct:

The sound of a combination of neck and bridge pickups on a two PU guitar is not the same as when you would put one pickup in the middle position?

I plan on making a one pickup guitar in the near future. I love the sound of my current two pickup guitar in the middle position. I guess then the best place for my single pickup would be around the middle. I'll find out by trial and error, as I'm not a mathematical genius.

Cheers

[JohnRossitter]

No the sound is not the same.

Think about the fact that the more pickups that you have, the more electromagnatic current you will capture.

So, a rear pickup capturing it's frequency range and a front pickup capturing it's frequency range are 2 different sounds.

A "middle" pickup will capture a completely different frequency range than either front or rear.

To a trained ear, there is a big difference.

All that being said, there is nothing wrong with a single pickup guitar.

You just will have a limited frequency range.

[guitar2005]

I remember talking to a Dimarzio rep about pickup placement and orientation and he basically told me that there is no "right" way to either mount a pickup, its position or its orientation (adjustable pole pieces).

We were talking about Zebra pickups and how I wanted to change the orientation so that I got the colors in the way I wanted to see them.

Basically, he told me that there's a traditional or "purist" was of orienting pickups and that it had nothing to do with sound "quality", at least not for the pickups I was going to use, or 99% of the pickups on the market today. For something like a Diamrzio SD - there is zero difference.

I think that you should try any pickup location you want and if it sounds good to you... it probably sounds good to others.

Actually, I think that depending on wood and pickup selection, you should try to place the pickups in slightly different places to attempt to get to the sound you want. For example, on my latest build, I put the bridge pickup closer to the bridge than I normally would because the top wood is soft and I wanted to get some brightness and edge out of the bridge pickup. Putting it too far away would lose some of that bite I like so much. You can also see than I set the adjustable pole pieces towards the neck - another non-traditional way of orienting pickups. I wanted the neck side to be closer to the strings while having the pickups closer for more bite. Does orientation make a difference? A slight difference and you can't notice it easily. Does the crowd notice when playing a show? No

Compare that to a Godin LGX and you'll see that the bridge pickup on the LGX is way far. Further out than a Les Paul. Result? A dull sounding guitar, even with a Dimarzio SD or EMG-81. The only reason why I keep that guitar is that it looks nice and has the LR Baggs bridge.

[guitar2005]

To each his own by all means, but if where your hand is placed on the guitar really makes that huge of a difference in "your tone", I need to hear you play. Cause I would hope you are that amazing.

Hey, if my tone deaf wife or drummer can hear a difference, I'm sure you could.

The kind of pick you use makes a difference, the attack on the strings, where you play (closer to the bridge/closer to the neck).

The difference is pretty noticeable to me but then again, I don't play with a wall of mid scooped distortion all the time.

[black_labb]

im not going to read all of it, but the harmonic node thing is useless.placing it under a node on the open string (lets say neck pup at the 24th fret) it picks up the 2nd harmonic stronger than anywhere else, but it does not pick up any of the 4th harmonic, as well as the 8th 16th ect. if you move it just a bit, then you will pick up both harmonics. the way to look at it is to put it closer to the bridge will give it a brighter sound (less fundamental) and closer to the neck will be warmer.

[Petros]

...the way to look at it is to put it closer to the bridge will give it a brighter sound (less fundamental) and closer to the neck will be warmer.

Indeed. I think that's been consistent on every single guitar made.

Hence, we can assume a general principle about placement for each given pickup: The closer you place the pickup to the bridge the brighter the sound will be.

Still, given two different pickups, one pickup could be placed further from the bridge than the other and still sound "brighter" There's many different variables to contend with (including the frequently overlooked variable of not having the same sensitivity to your hearing each day if you are evaluating sound!).

Still a great discussion.

By the way, on a Fender discussion board someone claimed that the reason for the bridge pickup tilt on the strat is supposedly to give the lower toned strings a brighter attack. But given our discussion, it would seem the opposite effect was desired, i.e., to take away some of the bright attack from the lower tone strings. The typical right-hand strat angles the pickup with the high E closest to the bridge, not the other way. So, at the same relative position to the bridge, you would get a brighter attack on the lower tone strings for the specific pickup if you didn't place the pickup at the conventional angle.

Interesting to note, because Jimmy Hendrix swapped his guitar around to play left-handed, the bridge pickup was oriented with the opposite angle, which put the low E string closer to the bridge, giving the lower strings the brighter attack. It's hard to say how much this altered his final sound.

Edited March 15, 2008 by Petros

[Mickguard]

It's hard to say how much this altered his final sound.

Something tells me that LSD had more of an impact.

[Petros]

I was just trying to make a point about a famous guitarist who used an unconventional pickup placement. I think his rig probably had more impact on his sound than the guitar itself (double souped-up marshalls if I remember correctly).