Mickguard Posted March 6, 2006 Report Share Posted March 6, 2006 I brought this up a while back in the electronics section, but in my book it's more of a general guitar question. Here's the back story: this morning I (re)installed a P90 in the middle position of my telecaster. The telecaster was already routed for it. I disconnected the neck pickup, since it's kind of useless. And I have to say, I really like the sound of the P90 there --has just the right balance of bite and midrange that I like...next to it, the bridge pickup just sounds all thin and nasty (the P90's a Mighty Mite, the bridge pickup is from a Fender MIA tele). The length of the tele bridge makes it so that when I'm playing the pick falls into the space between the P90 and the bridge pickup, so no problems about knocking against the P90 --I'm not so sure this will be the case with a TOM/wraparound bridge, which is what I prefer otherwise... So, since I'm a simple soul who likes to keep things simple (i.e., my next project is going to be a single P90 guitar), I think I'll go ahead and mount the pickup in the middle position. And I'm going to rewire my 350 for just the neck and middle pickups --I have a Rickenbacker scatterwound in the bridge position right now, but I'm going to move that to middle. The neck pickup is different...it's one of the clones...it has this awesome fuzz/sustain thing going on... Anyway, I started wondering --if the pickup sounds so damned good in the middle position, why is that there are very few guitars featuring middle-position-only pickups? And the only time you tend to see middle position pickup is when there are three pickups. So is there some kind of science behind the tradition of having neck and bridge pickups but no middle? Is this just a tradition, and people just haven't bothered to challenge it? To my ears, the bridge position is either too strident/piercing or its weak-sounding, while the neck position lacks clarity or just becomes too bass heavy... (with the exception of this weird Ric-clone pickup I have...sounds awful for chords, but for leads it's like having a built in fuzz pedal) I've already noted the potential issue of having the middle pickup getting in the way when you're picking...but there are ways to compensate for that --like, it'd be nice to build in a wrist rest right behind the bridge--or maybe use a wider bridge, like that Hipshot baby grand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattia Posted March 6, 2006 Report Share Posted March 6, 2006 Pure tradition, methinks; practically nothing done in guitarbuilding is due to 'science' That, and the fact that the majority of players out there don't seem to use middle only all that often; on a 2-pickup guitar, you want the extremes (full, round neck sound, or brighter bridge lead tone), and for most, a single pickup guitar with a pickup in the middle will do neither very well, and remain a general compromise. I mean, I know I never use my middle pickup (on the one guitar I have with three pickups) on its own, and I didn't when I had a strat, either. Doesn't work for me. I simply don't think it's terribly useful, or hasn't been on any of the instruments I've tried; hell, I'll probably be wiring my Strat to go n, n+m, n+b, b+m, b because I find those combos more useful. I'm also not a huge bridge Pup fan for the reasons you state, although part of that has to do with pickups being too close to the bridge; I try to place mine at least an inch away from the high E saddle (to the edge, like), and you have to match your pickup selection to your body woods and general construction to get what you want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickguard Posted March 6, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 6, 2006 The main reason I don't use the middle pickup on my strat is that the switch is in my way and I keep knocking it into the bridge position anyway. So I just gave up and play on that. But I LIKE the sound of the middle pickup....at least, I'm pretty sure I do, I consider myself too new at playing guitar to be able to formulate a truly definite idea about these things. Still, when I play the telecaster with the P90 in the middle --that's the sound I'm looking for. It still growls, but doesn't feel like someone's jabbing needles in my ears. My thought though on the new project is kind of along the lines of what you're saying --that is I'm planning on setting the P90 in a compromise position --not truly the middle position, but still not in traditional bridge position. A lot of that is going to depend on my experiments with my Rocket 350 and the position of my picking hand --I don't want to end up poking the pickup all the time... Hmm...anyone have any thoughts on what's better --picking in front of the pickup or behind it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattia Posted March 6, 2006 Report Share Posted March 6, 2006 Hmm...anyone have any thoughts on what's better --picking in front of the pickup or behind it? Where you pick has a significant effect on how you sound, so...depends. I'm all helpful with the clear answers today, aren't I? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erikbojerik Posted March 6, 2006 Report Share Posted March 6, 2006 If you look at a Strat, the pickups are at fret positions #24 (neck), #36 (mid) and ~#48 (bridge) when the strings are open. As long as you are playing within the first few frets of the neck (#1-3), the idea is that the pickups will catch the appropriate harmonics. I like all the positions on my Strat....I am a mad pickup switcher, depending on the feel of the song. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregP Posted March 6, 2006 Report Share Posted March 6, 2006 I fall in to mattia's category of going for the "extremes". I'd rather have that really noticeable difference in tone when switching between my two pickups. On a one-pickup guitar, I feel, you should mount it where you enjoy it best! For you, that seems to be the middle, so go for it! I'm making a lap steel right now (if I can find or make the right parts, grumble grumble) with the intention of approximating a pedal steel sound. And while steel guitar in general is often very thin and trebly, I'm not going to mount its single pickup right in the typical "bridge" position, but a bit forward instead. Maybe not truly "middle", but somewhere in-between. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Irizarry Posted March 6, 2006 Report Share Posted March 6, 2006 Hmm...anyone have any thoughts on what's better --picking in front of the pickup or behind it? Not speaking from an ergonomic perspective here at all (have to qualify that given my current obsession) but it depends on what sound you're going after - closer to the bridge is brighter while closer to the nut is warmer. Guys like Eric Johnson make use of the entire length between the bridge and the nut in order to create different tones and of course its more obvious when playing with clean tones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhoads56 Posted March 6, 2006 Report Share Posted March 6, 2006 If you look at a Strat, the pickups are at fret positions #24 (neck), #36 (mid) and ~#48 (bridge) when the strings are open. As long as you are playing within the first few frets of the neck (#1-3), the idea is that the pickups will catch the appropriate harmonics. I like all the positions on my Strat....I am a mad pickup switcher, depending on the feel of the song. And the benefit of positioning a pickup under a harmonic... is what?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thegarehanman Posted March 6, 2006 Report Share Posted March 6, 2006 Probably the same benefit as having direct mounted pickups, metal control cavity covers, and a finish that can breath. Did someone say voodoo? What it all really comes down to is personal preference, but isn't that what almost everything is about on guitars? Anyhow, it's only under a harmonic when you're playing open chords, so the benefits or deficiencies in that setup would be fairly limited either way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wardd Posted March 6, 2006 Report Share Posted March 6, 2006 This thread is reminding me, didn't one of those Dan Armstrong Lucite guitars have a sliding pickup? d ward Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thegarehanman Posted March 6, 2006 Report Share Posted March 6, 2006 I think someone on pg actually built a guitar with a sliding pickup, can't remember who though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhoads56 Posted March 6, 2006 Report Share Posted March 6, 2006 Probably the same benefit as having direct mounted pickups, metal control cavity covers, and a finish that can breath. Did someone say voodoo? Haha, build some more guitars and make up your own mind. Ive done the research with sound engineers and nerdy professors in a lab enviroment, AND have the guitars built which prove my 'voodoo' to the buyers. What have you got? :D Yeah yeah, here we go, some clown will now come in and say im full of sh%# because im not going to reveal EVERYTHING i found out in my research... pfft!! Ive just had a band tell me they scrapped $3500 worth of guitar recordings for their next album, after borrowing one of my 'voodoo' guitars for 24 hours. Kinda nice to have that warm fuzzing feeling knowing that my ideas and theories not only work in a controlled unbiased test facility, but a recording studio, AND live also. But hey, i dont need to convince you, ive got too many other people who DO believe in me and my products (who HAVE heard the 'voodoo' differences), that i have to look after. What it all really comes down to is personal preference, but isn't that what almost everything is about on guitars? Anyhow, it's only under a harmonic when you're playing open chords, so the benefits or deficiencies in that setup would be fairly limited either way. Exactly. And... what is happening to the string AT the harmonic? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikhailgtrski Posted March 6, 2006 Report Share Posted March 6, 2006 And the benefit of positioning a pickup under a harmonic... is what?? No idea, but I know that the 5th fret harmonic doesn't sound when I'm using the outside coil of my neck humbucker, but it does come through if I use both coils. PickGuardian - If you like the sound of the p/u in the middle, by all means build one like that. I rarely use the middle by itself... it's ok clean to semi-clean (ala SRV), but I think it loses character when it's distorted... does anyone like Clapton's middle position strat lead tone? Not me, but I do like Trower's tone, and I think he uses the middle a lot... so go figure. Oh, and Ronnie Montrose built an experimental sliding pickup guitar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thegarehanman Posted March 6, 2006 Report Share Posted March 6, 2006 Well, if the fish are biting, don't change the bait. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the harmonic is a node for one of the more dominant vibrations in the (open)string. Some people(ed roman?) say that having a pickup under a harmonic is a bad idea because it's not seeing as much vibration in the strings as if it were at a non-nodal point. It's so circumstantial though, because that would only really be an issue if you're playing an open note and the string didn't have so many undertones in it simultaneously(which it does, hence harmonics). Personally, I've heard some mighty fine sounding strats, and if the pickups are, infact, under harmonics, then I don't see the problem. peace, russ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fryovanni Posted March 6, 2006 Report Share Posted March 6, 2006 I know I shouldn't jump on this one . In theory you would be placing the most dense magnetic fields in a spot with the least string movement. That would be the case if everything was set just right and it was an open note(perfectly intonated). That would be a rare event to say the least. All that said it makes perfect sense that you could find a desirable spot that optimises for a certain style of play with a given set up(PU's, scale length, etc...). The true test of that would be how it performs and sounds when played. Like Perry mentioned. His placement works very well for his customers. You can't argue with that. The best placement would vary with different set ups and different play(so I doubt there is much left to argue about). Peace,Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thegarehanman Posted March 6, 2006 Report Share Posted March 6, 2006 I don't think there was an argument to begin with. I think we've all agreed that it's simply a matter of personal preference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erikbojerik Posted March 6, 2006 Report Share Posted March 6, 2006 It's so circumstantial though, because that would only really be an issue if you're playing an open note and the string didn't have so many undertones in it simultaneously(which it does, hence harmonics). ...and if the pickup's magnetic fields were so narrow and focussed that they were induced by a spot on the string only 1mm wide...etc etc. Ever see the difference in magnetic fields surrounding a Fender single coil vs a Gibson P90? Night & day.... Leave it to your ear....then if you want to understand "why", delve into the science. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickguard Posted March 6, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 6, 2006 I'm not trying to start an argument (though they're always fun to watch)...but I think it's an interesting subject. Since most people end up building 'traditional' guitars, maybe there's a need to introduce the idea there are alternatives to this. It's not simply a question of personal preference in that case --since how can you have a preference if no guitars like this exist? Now in my tele, I can say that I like the P90 where it is --unfortunately what I can't say is whether that same P90 will sound even better if it were in the bridge position. I don't feel like cutting up the bridge plate to find out. I don't mind routing the neck pickup cavity to fit the P90, but I'm not really interested in a neck position sound right now. On the other hand, since my Rocket 350 is already set up for three pickups, it won't be too difficult to experiment with placing the 'main' pickup in the middle position instead of the bridge, where it is now. I like it in the bridge, but I think it can sound better. The big issue I'm facing is that I'm preparing the next build --and I'll only be able to route that once. So I'm trying to get some insight into what might work, what to watch out for, so I can make my decision. I do plan to rig up a stand so I can move the pickup around ABOVE the strings, to get an idea of the changes in sound. But I wonder how close to the actual sound I'll get with that. I know that SwedishLuthier did this recently, hopefully he'll weigh in (wade in?) here. I think my choice of pickup is a big factor too --there's a big difference between a P90 and a strat middle pickup, for one thing. (edit: just noticed that erik pointed this out while I was typing!) Which might account for why the P90 works so well on the tele while the middle pickup on my strat is kind of anemic and too muffled to be entirely useful. Placing the P90 in the middle actually seems to me like it captures a bit of a humbucker feel (on chords especially). I've seen the sliding pickup guitars, I think Ibanez made one too in the 70s? But that's a gimmick. My goal is to build a stripped-down guitar in the LP Jr. spirit. Also the body design won't really permit a neck pickup. One thing's for certain, at least --pickup placement is NOT voodoo, there's definitely a difference in tone --at least at the extreme positions. But I recall reading that Danelectro put some kind of extra cap into one of their guitars (the Guitarlin) because the pickups were really close to each other (i.e., the 'neck' pickup is closer to the middle position than a true neck position) and the cap was necessary in order to make a clear difference between the two pickups. But again, a different kind of pickup. I'm going to spend some time rewiring the Rocket tomorrow...we'll see what happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeAArthur Posted March 6, 2006 Report Share Posted March 6, 2006 This thread is reminding me, didn't one of those Dan Armstrong Lucite guitars have a sliding pickup? d ward It slides out so it can be replaced with another pickup - but not for positioning along the strings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikhailgtrski Posted March 6, 2006 Report Share Posted March 6, 2006 I'm not trying to start an argument (though they're always fun to watch)... How about "guff and conjecture"? I'm more of a PAF humbucker guy, but I recently heard a guy playing a Tele with P90s in the traditional Tele positions - sounded really nice. Fat but with some good spank to it. Myka has a 3-pickup P90 guitar in his gallery... maybe he can give you some suggestions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickguard Posted March 6, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 6, 2006 How about "guff and conjecture"? I'm more of a PAF humbucker guy, but I recently heard a guy playing a Tele with P90s in the traditional Tele positions - sounded really nice. Fat but with some good spank to it. I'll take your guff and conjecture and raise you a harrumph! I was at a concert last week where a tele fitted with a pair of P90s was shared among several guitarists each taking their turn (it was a birthday concert for a well-known singer in the area). Nice and sparkly sound, mostly clean sounds...but it was cool to see how each guitarist made the guitar sound just a little bit different. I'm a definite fan of P90s though. Like the way they look, love the way they sound. And P90 is cool to say too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marksound Posted March 6, 2006 Report Share Posted March 6, 2006 I'm a definite fan of P90s though. Like the way they look, love the way they sound. And P90 is cool to say too. Good thing. If you didn't like that P90, somebody might show you one of these P90s. http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg13-e.htm http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976420582.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikhailgtrski Posted March 6, 2006 Report Share Posted March 6, 2006 And P90 is cool to say too. "Pé quatre-vingt-dix"... wow, that is cool. So, how do you say "humbucker" in French? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickguard Posted March 6, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 6, 2006 "Pé quatre-vingt-dix"... wow, that is cool. It is when some sexy French chick is saying it. Come to think of it, everything sounds cool when a sexy French chick is saying it. Or even when she's just mouthing it. Or even when she's just thinking of it. Or when she's having some existential crisis over it. Everything. Yes. So, how do you say "humbucker" in French? See above. Or better yet, see my avatar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crafty Posted March 7, 2006 Report Share Posted March 7, 2006 Lindsay Buckingham's Rick Turner guitar has a pickup located in the mid position that can be rotated to produce different voicings. Here's a link: (Warning: Ed Roman content) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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