Effects...

[mikhailgtrski]

But if you put it first, each "tap" at a lower volume will distort differently. It won't be the same note or chord echoed anymore. GREAT for some things! It's not the expected effect per se, but completely usable.

Yup, depends on what you want to do with the delay... if it's placed at the front end, the amp will "see" the taps/echoes as notes coming from your guitar and they'll interact/intermodulate with the notes you played (i.e. the "ghost" harmonies you can get playing certain double-stops or other intervals). This can be a cool thing, ala The Edge... "Pride (In the Name of Love)" is a perfect example.

After the amp, you get pure echoes without the interaction. Better for "realistic" ambiance.

[Daniel Sorbera]

So whats the -best case senario-?

Is it:

Tube amp - load box- fx - clean poweramp - speaker

This would provide -real- power amp distortion with the fx being placed after the amp. You also have the ability to turn down the poweramp without compramising your tube tone.

hmm this sounds alot like Vox valvetronix only with a real tube amp, not the modeling stuff.

Any links for some info on load boxes?

[mikhailgtrski]

So whats the -best case senario-?

Tube amp - load box- fx - clean poweramp - speaker

Any links for some info on load boxes?

I like it a lot

Yes, you can put your f/x after the amp distortion, and you can adjust your volume to fit the room without losing your "crankedness"... although the speakers still like to be pushed slightly.

My EL84 amp has a built-in load resistor, but check out the THD Hotplate or Weber MASS or Palmer PDI/PGA

[Daniel Sorbera]

I run my amp into this, than the delay and reverb, than into something like this, and finally into the speaker.

Edited May 17, 2006 by Godin SD

[mikhailgtrski]

Yup, that works.

I don't think you need all the tone-shaping bells and whistles so much when you're using a dummy load. My tube power amp just has a couple of 5-watt resistors that kick in when it's not plugged into a cab. The tone shaping is more important when you're using it as an attenuator.

I'm using a Marshall 8008 single-space power amp. It's switchable between linear and "valvestate" output, and it sounds much better in VS mode - something to do with speaker damping, I think.

In case you're interested, here's my complete signal chain:

-Guitar

-Marshall JMP-1 midi tube preamp (w/ NOS Mullard ECC83s)

-Lexicon Signature 284 tube power amp (preamp bypassed, w/ NOS Tesla EL84s)

-Hush Super C noise reduction

-Alesis Q20 multi-f/x processor

-Sabine rack mount tuner

-Marshall 8008 power amp

-Marshall 1936 2x12 cab loaded with Celestion G12H 70th anniversary reissues

-Shure SM57 to house sound

I switch preamp/processor patches via a MIDI controller, plus I can adjust f/x parameters on the fly with the CC pedals.

I also have an old ADA Microcab speaker simulator in my rack, just in case I have to go direct.

It's a heavy rack + cab to tote around, but it suits my purposes really nicely.

There's a ton of info and some DYI links on this stuff at amptone.

[Pr3Va1L]

BTW, if you end up buying a BOSS GT-series, theres a little trick to get it to sound real good. It's called "4 cable method"...

Basically, you run your guitar through the pedal, then, there's somewhere a function for external distortion or effects or whatever (in my GT-3 it's in OD/DS.) So you run that output to your amp's input. The amp's effect loop out goes into the external OD in and the pedal's output finally goes to the power-amp's IN (Read: effects loop in)

Now, with the "effect chain" function, you can put any effect before or after your preamp... Useful if you want, say: Compressor, EQ, (preamp), reverb, delay, (poweramp)

Hope it helps

Edited May 17, 2006 by Pr3Va1L

[crafty]

This is all well and good but...

Here's the deal. The Boss and Line 6 units are designed to sound good through a guitar amp because 99% of the consumers of these products are going to put them in front of an amp. With your VJ, it's going to act more like a power amp to the processor since there's no EQ built into the amp. This will give the effect of "warming up" the sound with the tube presence. How well this is achieved is up to the settings of your processor, amp, and guitar.

For sheer versatility, processors are great. Lot easier to lug around than a pedal board, no batteries, no patch cables, lower cost. If you're jamming around the house, you'll have a ton of fun with it.

[Mickguard]

.

[marksound]

Well Mick, the only "effects" I'm thinking about buying is a chorus and a wah pedal, so I won't be "messing up" the tone Than you have the EQ (which will be placed before the amp, I like being able to tailor the distortion sound that way better than after) the Reverb and delay will be placed in the effects loop that doesn't exist at the moment. I've added that to my list of mods for the VJ.

Ok, then here are some choices. The Budda wah pedal is the smoothest sounding wah I've ever heard. It's not at all harsh like some of the Dunlops and original (I mean OLD) Crybabys I've heard.

The original Boss Chorus is IMO the best out there (do they still make it?), but this one is good too.

I have zero experience with EQs (in my day we called them tone knobs ), but you can't go wrong with .

Go down to GC and knock that shredder kid out from in front of the effects display. Sit down and play all of them in different combinations and see what sounds good to you. Seriously, if you're just looking for 2 or 3 or 4 effects you're better off getting the individual pedals so you can get exactly the sound you're looking for. In my opinion.

[Daniel Sorbera]

@ mikhailgtrski

Do you think a simple resistive load will work well? Something like this L-Pad.

@ Mickguard

No I'm not using it as a preamp. I'm using it as a regular full blown amp. Imagine that I have my VJ turned all the way up in a VERY lardge building, so lardge that you can't hear it at all. Now imagine I have it miced and run through delay and reverb at the board. Than at the board I can control the exact volume of my VJ without compramising the tone of a cranked amp.

@ Marksound

I have been aware of that budda wah and wow those things sound good

I'm not so sure I like the boss chorus, it's a little bright and metalicy for my taste.

That boss EQ pedal has had tons of problems. They are noisey, VERY NOISEY, and they seem to go out after about a year.

The twin pedal on the other hand link is only a couple of bucks more and is much more quiet, and has memory (kinda big deal for me as I play acoustic also so I could use this pedal for both with memory settings so I don't have to change it every time)

Thank you everyone in this thread. It has really helped my understanding of effects and where they need to be placed in the signal chain.

Edited May 17, 2006 by Godin SD

[mikhailgtrski]

Do you think a simple resistive load will work well? Something like this L-Pad.

As long as it drops your speaker-level signal down to a line-voltage signal (and the resistors can handle the load) it should work. My Lexicon 284 (3 watts) just has a 5 watt resistor as the dummy load.

The Weber MASS is something I'd like to try, though. That "speaker motor" concept sounds really interesting, and I'd like to A/B it with a straight resistive load to see if it sounds/responds any differently. It could be that it only makes a noticeable difference when you're attenuating vs. using a dummy load.

Mickguard - It's a variation on the old EVH load box rig (sans the Variac )... it lets you place the f/x after the power amp distortion.

[Daniel Sorbera]

Okay now for a stupid question (as if any of my other questiong we're edcutated ). Exatly what is Line-voltage signal? Got any links/info that would help me understand,

1. what the heck it is

2. how to check/measure it

[mikhailgtrski]

Line-level (I typed 'voltage' by mistake - it's the electrician in me ) is usually +4dBu, the signal level that pro audio equipment (mixers, etc.) works with.

I'm not exactly sure how you'd measure it other than turning the L-pad all the way down, plugging into a mixer with a VU meter, then carefully turning up the pad until you're reading something between 0 and +4 dBu. (I'm sure you know this, but plugging a speaker-level signal into a line-level mixer can and will fry it instantly.)

Some of the electronics forum gurus might have some better info for you. Some technical background on signal levels is here.

[Daniel Sorbera]

Do you see any problem with just turning it all the way down than bring it up -very slowly- until I get a sufficiant signal going into the effects?

[mikhailgtrski]

Well, yes, that's kinda the procedure I was trying to describe.

turning the L-pad all the way down, plugging into a mixer with a VU meter, then carefully turning up the pad until you're reading something between 0 and +4 dBu.

[Daniel Sorbera]

Well yeah, but you said specificly to run it into a mixer or the like with a VU meter and check it. I was just wondering if there would be any problems with just turning it up slowly and not running it into a VU meter.

[mikhailgtrski]

Sure, no worries, you can do it by ear... it's just nice to know what the level is so you can be sure it matches your outboard gear (most of the good rack processors have an input level meter anyway).

Sometimes there's a fine line between a hot "clean" signal and one that overdrives your f/x, and it can be hard to pick out the bad distortion when you're feeding it a good distortion signal. If you have good ears you'll be fine.

EDIT: If you go with stompboxes, they are usually designed for instrument-level input. But, yeah, use your ears.

Edited May 17, 2006 by mikhailgtrski