Tung Oil - Who Uses It And What Kind Do You Like

[doug]

I get asked about tung oils a lot. Customers like to finish necks or whole guitars with it and so do I. My answers are based on the experiences I have had over the years, which like any opinion can be one sided at times.

Let's hear what you have to say:

Please share your personal experience with your favorite oil finish. What kind is it? Why you like it? Why have you singled that one brand out above all others? Maybe, compare it to other kinds you've used in the past too.

My experience/opinion:

For the past 20 or so years I have come to prefer Waterlox brand of tung oil. There are several reasons formost of which is that it hardens the wood fibers making the surface more resiliant to contamination. The other is it is processed and blended with other favorable oils, and it does harden within 24hours or so. It also doesn't stink. Several oils just flat out smell bad like that gun oil some people use.

I have a shelf in my shop with nearly every brand of tung or other oil I have ever heard of, but when all is said and done I still prefer the Waterlox.

Thanks for your input!

-Doug

[JohnRossitter]

I use linseed.

I have not yet learned to spray

[doug]

Some of the good blended tung oils have boiled linseed in them too, but in small amounts.

-Doug

[Mattia]

I never use actual oil, always a blend, be that Liberon's finishing oil (mostly linseen), Danish oil, and I'd use TruOil if it was readily available. They're all blended finishes, they harden quite swiftly, and will buff to a nice semi-gloss to almost gloss shine if applied thick enough and polished enough. Personally, I sand/burnish pieces I'm going to oil up through 1200 grit, then 0000 steel wool, then oil them, flattening with steel wool. Apply a coat of good wax, buff with an old T-shirt when I'm done, and presto, a great, simple guitar finish that feels wonderful.

[Primal]

When I use tung oil, I use Formby's (because that is what is around here), however I am a HUGE fan of Tru-Oil.

[al heeley]

Mattia, i use virtually the same process as you, always happy with the results. Only used Tru-oil or Danish. Real pure tung oil remains tacky for ages and should be avoided.

Tru oil is polymerised oil based on tung oil and hardens well quite quickly. Danish is polymerised linseed oil (as far as I can find out) and performs same as tru-oil. Danish is easier to get over here and cheaper. Tru oil feels somehow richer (maybe just higher viscosity).

[doug]

Hmmm, that Tru-Oil seems quite popular. Why? I am truly curious.

I have a bottle of it, but only used it once on a couple fingerboards. The smell was so bad that I turned on the exhaust system for several hours because it permiated the entire shop. Since then I've left it on the shelf. The results were nice, just like Waterlox or others.

I use the same method as Mattia, except no wax.

-Doug

[Desopolis]

now Im a newb to all this, but compared to a sprayed poly finish how does the oil feel?

Is it true that it needs to be reapplied every so often?

ive read it has a smoother feel then regular spray..

[verhoevenc]

Being that I'm building a bass for a guy that wanted it very Warwick-esque, an Oil finish may be the way to go.

Is this the one you were talking about here Doug?

Also, my main questions for all you oil guys:

1) How much oil does it take to finish a guitar?

2) How does it bode with stains? Particularly LMII's waterbased stains on some flamed maple.

3) Does it grain fill? I figure since you wipe on it goes on pretty thick and would...

Chris

[Mickguard]

I've been working with Le Tonkinois --mainly because there's not much choice in brands over here. But also because it's an all-natural, non-toxic varnish. It's a mix of polymerized tung and linseed oils. Goes on very glossy, close enough to nitro for me. It dries quickly, but you can't go too thick with it, because it'll stay kind of rubbery/spongy. Has a pleasant enough odor that goes away. Definitely smoother to the touch than regular guitar finishes, which had a tackier feel to them. Not all that easy to work with, although I haven't tried spraying it, it might give better results that way.

About the sanding part....from what I've read, sanding the wood beyond 350 is unneccessary. It makes sense-- there's no way you can tell the difference between wood that's been sanded to 350 and wood that's been sanded to 2000 and steel-wooled once you've covered it with finish. It's the finish that needs to be polished, not the wood, unless you're leaving it unfinished, of course.

Info comes from Understanding Wood Finishing, so don't shoot me!

[Mr Alex]

A little off topic:

My favourite is Andrew boiled linseed oil. It stinks like hell though. So I french polished over it, that gave me the best gloss I ever got with shellac(and trust me, I can get a very nice gloss). And after only 2 sessions, I had built the kind of gloss that would usually take about 20 to get. Sure it wasn't as thick, and I doubt as durable, but that oil really makes it glow. My piece of sapele mahogany looked like shimmering gold.

While it takes a while to learn the padding techniques for french polishing, shellac over oil could perhaps be a quick and cheap finish for beginners.

[Primal]

Doug, Tru-oil can actually build a finish, where as from what I understand tung oils (unless Waterlox is different) won't build a finish. Tru-oil can give you a SUPER shiny finish if done correctly.

[doug]

Yes Chris, that's the one.

After many years of this oil finish thing I've come up with my own method which may not be "by the book" as some might think.

First is to finish sand the wood to a high grit - yes you can tell - to get the feel I want. Then I slobber on one thick coat of tung oil, and let it soak in. I apply another real wet coat, and let that soak in. After letting the last application stand until it's sticky, I wipe it all off. Tung oil is not meant for surface build really so it needs to be wiped off.

The reason for the wet coats etc. is because after that hardens in the grain the wood no longer soaks it in anymore for the most part.

I apply several more applications allowing at least 24 hours in between. Totally wiping the piece dry after each. This builds a very strong barrier to the elements in the wood.

For that nice low sheen I rub the piece with 0000 steel wool soaked in more tung oil. Be careful though because the grain can trap bits of the steel wool. In open grained woods wax is a bad idea because it turns color after a few days then the surface can look dirty.

The Model 07LTD on my web site has about 15 applications of Waterlox. Each successive treatment adds a little more filling and depth, but not too much filling.

Trick: pour out 1/2 a container of your polymerized blended tung oil into an open container and let it sit for a few days until it thickens and turns dark. This is my absolute favorite condition to use tung oil. Use the new "thin" stuff for the first two or three applications then follow with the thick.

It took about 1 cup (US) to do the Model 07LTD.

Doug, Tru-oil can actually build a finish, where as from what I understand tung oils (unless Waterlox is different) won't build a finish. Tru-oil can give you a SUPER shiny finish if done correctly.

They all can from what I've seen. However, it's not meant to. When has that ever stopped anyone...?

-Doug

[Mickguard]

Okay, fine, here's the entire paragraph :

To what grit should you sand? Probably no question in woodworking elicits as much passionate controversy as this one. Most of the passion is based on how good the wood looks before the finish is applied. The finer the grit sandpaper you use, the more polished the wood will appear. But highly polished wood won't look more polished after you apply the finish. In fact, from about 120 grit up, it's difficult to see the difference once the finish is applied. For perspective, consider that furniture factories seldom sand above 150 grit.

My own preference is to sand to 180 grit when I'm applying a film (shellac, lacquer, varnish or water-based) finish, and to 220 grit when I'm applying a thin oil finish. (The high grit for oil finished makes the wood feel smoother; it doesn't improve the appearance.) Sanding to 220 grit and above will polish the surface and hinder pigment-stain penetration.

(from Bob Flexner's Understanding Wood Finishing, p. 14)

Mind you, I'm not doubting your ability to make great-looking guitars. Just wondering if you've ever tried stopping at a lower grit --maybe you've been putting a lot of effort where it's not necessary? Especially since you're applying a fairly thick finish--it seems perfectly obvious that, once you've filled in the grain of the wood with the oil, you'll no longer be able to feel the grain of the wood, right?

I like the method where one dilutes the first coat and wet sands it in --supposed to combine the oil with wood dust to fill the pores.

While we're on about sanding: I ordered a sample pack of 3M Fre-cut paper from StewMac...this stuff is amazing, light years beyond the garbage they sell in the stores around here. I'm wondering if there are any other brands of equivalent quality paper?

[doug]

What the book says IS true. I didn't always make guitars. With any "process" it can and should be modified depending on the application. So, a Grandfather clock may not warrent a high grit finish sanding because of the hand rubbed finish. Chairs, book cases, curious, etc. might get a sprayed finish so a 180 grit finish sanding is all that's needed.

Guitars that I shoot polyester on get sanded to 180. If the surface is too smooth the finish might not adhere properly. However, when it comes to a natural oil finish on a guitar I prefer to make the dry wood surface as smooth as possible prior to applying the oil. Yep, it may be overkill, but it sure looks nice. The other reason for fine sanding is to locate those pesky deeper scratches that might otherwise go unnoticed. Once I know the scratches are all gone, I'm happy.

Supergrit is the place for abrasive. I buy 50yd rolls of J weight. I recently tried the yellow paper stuff from Grizzly too which worked well. It doesn't last quite as long, but it does cost a little less. It's a trade off. Dollar for dollar it works out to be about the same.

Mirka PSA disks are good for the orbitals. If you want 8-1/2 x 11 cut sheets then Norton abreasives are good (the white and blue box). Their brown paper is junk like all the others.

-Doug

[Mickguard]

You're right, he's not speaking about guitars.

What about the issue with stain uptake--is that a problem, or do you leave your guitars natural when using oil finish?

[unclej]

oil finishes are definitely my favorite. i use them on my guitars, on my sculptures and on some of the wood jewelry that i make. i'm a big believer that wood should be seen and felt in as close to it's natural state as possible.

several years ago i read an article in a wood turning magazine about an old world furniture finish that could be applied easily on a piece while it was still chucked up to the lathe. it's a homemade concoction containing equal parts of linseed oil, varnish and turpentine. you mix it up in a seperate container and let it sit over night. flood the piece you're finishing and let it sit for fifteen minutes or so then wipe clean. let it set for a few hours and repeat. once you've achieved a smooth, consistent finish let it cure for a couple of days. generally speaking when you can't smell the turpentine any more it's cured. then i apply a couple of coats of minwax hardwood floor paste wax and buff. done deal.

over the years i've experimented with other formulas. my ex-business partner makes custom short scale basses for a living now and uses equal parts of poly, linseed oil and paint thinner. works just as well and seems to cure a bit faster

in my opinion using poly or varnish in your brew gives you a harder finish than using tung oil by itself. the turpentine or thinner of course thins the mixture and allows it to sink deeper into the wood and cures from the inside out instead of just sitting on the top.

if the finish starts to look a little dull you just apply a new coat of wax and you're good to go.

like the old commercial said, "try it..you'll like it."

[doug]

Unclj nailed it. Mixing some poly in there definitely makes a harder finish. The poly makes application a bit more tricky, however a remarkable finish can be achieved.

As for waxing I tend to stay away from that on open grained woods like padauk or wenge, because it can get to looking funny in the grains after several days.

to answer mickguard: I don't use stain only dye, and never under an oil finish. I like the natural wood.

-Doug

[verhoevenc]

1) So what would you have to do if a customer wanted a maple topped colored with LMII's water based powder colors? And he also wanted an oil finish?

Would it be a good idea to say... wipe of shellac to block where you don't want color, do your color, seal EVERYTHING with shellac, and then oil it all up?

2) If someone could do an oil finishes tut/mini-tut, doesn't really even need pictures that'd be great.

3) Has anyone tried Behlen's Masters Tung Oil?

4) How does adding some poly change the process?

Chris

[doug]

LMII's water based colors I like very much. They are dyes. If a customer wanted a guitar like you mentioned most likely I would not do it. I would experiment though to see how it could work out.

I don't use shellac for anything ever.

Behlen's tung oil is nice. Every brand has little variations on how they go on, finish, and durability.

Adding poly can make the fibers harder. I've found it's easier to leave streaks with poly mixed in, and it tends to want to stay more on the surface rather than soak. This part depends on how much poly you add.

-Doug

[verhoevenc]

Hmmmm.... well I kinda have no choice hahahaha. Anyone else wanna chime in on how they think that process of LMII Waterbased dye and oil finish might work.... or what would possibly go bad? So I have some info to work with when experimenting.

Chris

[Mr Alex]

Ok,

While I've never used any Lmii products, I have used a fair bit of other water based dyes. Don't oil over them, it only looks good if you like the look of furniture that was used as a spittoon in a bar for 50 years.

Not pretty is probably a good term, I tried all sorts of ways to do it, and usually it just ruined the surface of the wood when the oil was applied. Sort of drew the pigments out of the wood, and smeared them over it in some kind of speckle pattern. Reminded me of fly poo, just purple.

[Mickguard]

Hmmmm.... well I kinda have no choice hahahaha. Anyone else wanna chime in on how they think that process of LMII Waterbased dye and oil finish might work.... or what would possibly go bad? So I have some info to work with when experimenting.

Chris

The main issue I've had using stains and oil is that the oil I'm using is already amber-hued. So that affects the stain underneath --I've tried a couple different types of stains, both water and alcohol-based. So the deep cherry red I've achieved with the stain develops a brownish overtone with the oil. I've found that the only way to respect the color is to use only a light coat of oil, so there's a trade-off.

I don't know if every oil is this way though, maybe the petrol-based brands are clear?

I didn't have the fly-poo problem. Maybe Mr. Alex was using an oil with some kind of solvent in there?

The biggest problem I've had using oil is eliminating the dust and grit that gets onto the surface. The oil I use starts to react pretty quickly, so once the can is open, little crystals start to form, even inside. Which means, if you try to do two coats from one can, you get problems. The way I plan to avoid that in the future is by using the smaller can size. I'll use the leftovers from the can for less critical projects. The little cans aren't expensive anyway.

The other problem part is the slow cure time--takes a couple hours for the oil to develop a skin, so the dust that gets on there in the meantime gets into the finish. But since the stuff is all natural with no toxic fumes, I'm able to use it indoors in a more dust-controlled space. Need a better set of brushes too.

From what I've read, thinning with turpentine is a big no--it prevents this oil from fully curing. They recommend using white spirit instead. This definitely helps with the first, wet-sanded sealer coat.

[brian d]

Any thoughts about Tru-Oil for acoustic soundboards?

Thanks,

Brian.

[doug]

The main issue I've had using stains and oil is that the oil I'm using is already amber-hued.

The biggest problem I've had using oil is eliminating the dust and grit that gets onto the surface. The oil I use starts to react pretty quickly, so once the can is open, little crystals start to form, even inside. Which means, if you try to do two coats from one can, you get problems.

What kind of oil are you using that gets crystals in it? Man, it takes a good 6 months for me to use up a quart container treating fingerboards. Tung oil has been a staple in my shop for over 25 years and I've never, ever seen crystals. I purposly leave new containers open for seversl days to thicken it too.

As for the dust... soak the wood with the tung oil, let it sit for 5 or ten minutes then wipe it dry, totally dry, and polish it. There should be nothing for dust to stick to. If you pick the piece up and leave fingerprints, the surface has not been wiped and polished enough. Resist the urge to reapply for 24 hours. 20 treatments should take 20 days.

Yes, tung oils are amber except the ones containing dye. Factor that into your final color choice. It will also cause changes in the dye by removing some pigment thats near the surface, and by causing others to soak into the surface and dilute.

Remember, tung oil is just another kind of finish. With that comes the understanding that it has it's own unique characteristic which distinguishes it from other choices. One chooses a finish based on their personal vision of the end result. Tung oil is the finish of choice when I want to accentuate the surface beauty and feel of the wood.

-Doug