Major Manufacturers And The Wood They Use

[byteblock]

I've been checking out different brands of guitars lately. Thinking I would buy something relatively cheap like an Agile or Dean made from mahogany for example. Since its cheap I wouldnt care about possibly destroying it in an attempt to do a project build. Do you people know where manufacturers get the wood they use to make their guitars? Is all mahogany good mahogany?

[byteblock]

12 views and no reply? come on guys I'm not asking you to draw blood.

[verhoevenc]

No, not all mahogany is "good" mahogany. If it's a cheap guitar with like a solid color, or a top AND a back veneer/cap then chances are they'll use MULTIPLE pieace bodies. Not like 2-3 pieces, but often even more on cheap guitars. For instance Epiphone LPs have like 5 piece bodies, and if you look at the butt of the guitars you can see this (cause they have a cap and a back veneer) and to make it even uglier, they're not all the same width.... so you have strange looking stuff IMO. ALSO, make sure it's mahogany, that's not always true, one would assume a LP is mahogany, but often Epiphone ones are Alder with what I thought LOOKED like particle top with a flamed maple veneer on top. But no, as in "tone" there's a bunch of different types of mahogany. GENERALLY similar tone, so in that field it should be alright. Plus, often they buy in bulk, that helps them keep prices down too. It's not an easy answer, you could get one with great wood, one with what I've mentioned above...

Chris

[Jon]

12 views and no reply? come on guys I'm not asking you to draw blood.

Not everyone that views the forums are registered. Also, not everyone that views the forums know the answer to every question.

Major manufacturers use just about any type of wood, whether it's several pieces or wood in horrible shape with a veneer on the top and bottom, they use it. After sanding down a sweet B.C. Beast body I scored on Ebay, I thought it looked simply amazing. Perfect one piece. Then I sanded the sides. The top and bottom were thin maple veneers and there are at least 6 different woods hidden beneath the veneer. None the same color. Kind of deceptive, if you ask me.

[byteblock]

ok but from what I've been told and read on the net is that mahogany comes from 3 areas of the world correct? south america, africa and south east asia? are they all similar in tone and how they cut? I don't care what the grain looks like or the color.

I've never built or even worked on a guitar so I'm all new to this. I have made several pieces of furniture though so I'm going about this using common sense and a book i bought from amazon on how to build a guitar, the authors last name is Hiscock I believe.

so you're implying that when a manufacturer says a guitar is made from a certin type of wood thats not always the case? its actually just a veneer?

[Jon]

I mean it would be a few pieces of wood laminates together, side by side, then covered with veneer to disguise the quality of the wood beneath.

All the mahoganies all related, as far as I know. But the tone will always vary from board to board, or tree to tree. I'm not sure which offers the best tone. But African and Philippine mahogany are going to be the easier finds. I have personally worked with 50+ board feet of African. I love the tone. The weight seems to vary quite a bit as well.

[fryovanni]

ok but from what I've been told and read on the net is that mahogany comes from 3 areas of the world correct? south america, africa and south east asia? are they all similar in tone and how they cut? I don't care what the grain looks like or the color.

I've never built or even worked on a guitar so I'm all new to this. I have made several pieces of furniture though so I'm going about this using common sense and a book i bought from amazon on how to build a guitar, the authors last name is Hiscock I believe.

so you're implying that when a manufacturer says a guitar is made from a certin type of wood thats not always the case? its actually just a veneer?

Ok, I started to reply, but your question was too vague. Now you have spilled the beans. You have worked with wood, and you have a great book. You can do a search and find out plenty about "Genuine" or "Honduran", Khaya(african Mahogany), Sapele(another African Mahogany), Cuban Mahogany,etc... You can order wood from many specialty dealers many of which deal with large manufacturers(try Gilmerwood.com)or go to your local hardwood dealer. Wood is wood. You may have to learn how to select proper cuts or make sure it is dried before use(stabalized). Before you worry too much about asking questions on this board. Read your book and get about 90% of your questions answered. It is cool to post up, but your question is broad and hard to answer. If someone tries to answer. They will have to write a book or give you a responce that is loaded with ambiguous information. You can also get a lot of information about wood, wood properties, drying, glueing, finishing and so forth from the US Dept of Forestry's web site.

Peace,Rich

[Desopolis]

I basicly went to guitar center and played a variety of differnt types of guitars with differnt types of wood.

then I went online and googled Tonewoods.

a BC rich V I have was made of 4 differetn pieces of the same wood, the neck, 3 lams of mahagony.

unless it says one piece, I assume its a few different ones..

BTW the Author of that book has been trolling arround this site for a while, kinda freaks me out actually.

and I take whatever Rich says as fact....

[fryovanni]

Now this is not a good idea.

"and I take whatever Rich says as fact...."

I am just learning just like you.

Peace,Rich

[Mickguard]

Seems to me that 'mahogany' is kind of a generic term for a somewhat light-colored reddish wood. Gibson's 'mahogany' was originally Brazilian or from thereabouts, and isn't the same species as the 'mahogany' that comes from Africa.

And I'm pretty sure that the 'mahogany' that is used in cheap guitars is also known as 'nato' , which comes from southeast Asia and is quite abundant.

You basic idea of buying a cheapo to play around with for your first project is a good one, though. That's how I got started, at any rate.

[al heeley]

I think the experience of the successful guitar companies over the past 50 years teaches us the most practical and cost-effective solutions - lets not reinvent the wheel here, or think we can do better than an established or successful company runnig a good track record. The ones that have proven to work well are

-the various types of mahogany (or nato)

-Basswood

-Poplar

-Alder

What we have is time, innovation, design flair, less stringent budgets to meet, and the luxury of indulging ourselves, in being able to add those little extra exotic touches. I think though for the main guitar body you can't go wrong with the above choices.

[fryovanni]

I pulled this from another responce a couple weeks ago. It gives you the list of woods in the Meliaceae family. This should clear up some of the confusion(generated by "trade" names. This is the Topic I pulled the responce from-click

The Meliaceae, or the Mahogany family, is a flowering plant family of mostly trees and shrubs (and a few herbaceous plants) in the order Sapindales,

The family includes about 50 genera and 550 species, with a pantropical distribution; one genus (Toona) extends north into temperate China and south into southeast Australia, and another (Melia) nearly as far north.

Some economically important species belong to this family:

• Neem Azadirachta indica (India)

• Crabwood Tree Carapa procera (South America and Africa)

• Cedrela Cedrela odorata (Central and South America; timber also known as Spanish-cedar)

• Sapele Entandrophragma cylindricum (tropical Africa)

• Utile or Sipo, Entandrophragma utile (tropical Africa)

• Bossé Guarea cedrata (Africa)

• Bossé Guarea thompsonii (Africa)

• Ivory Coast Mahogany Khaya ivorensis (tropical Africa)

• Senegal Mahogany Khaya senegalensis (tropical Africa)

• Chinaberry or Bead Tree, Melia azedarach (Queensland, India and southern China)

• Mahogany Swietenia species (tropical Americas)

• Australian Redcedar Toona australis (Australia), often included in Toona ciliata (seq.)

• Toon, surian (int. trade) Toona ciliata (India, southeast Asia and eastern Australia)

Nato Mahogany is somewhat elusive in that any wood that is kinda like Mahogany can be called Nato Mahogany. Mora is commonly called Nato.

Mora

Family: Leguminosae

Other Common Names: Nato, Nato rojo (Colombia), Mora de Guayana (Venezuela), Morabukea, Mora (Guyana), Mora, Moraboekea (Surinam), Pracuuba (Brazil).

Distribution: M. excelsa: Widely distributed in the Guianas and less so in the Orinoco Delta of Venezuela; dominant on river levees and flood plains forming dense stands. M. gonggrijpii Restricted to Guyana and Surinam, a dominant species best adapted to hillsides on heavy clay soils.

The Tree: Usually 100 to 120 ft high and 2 to 3 ft in diameter with clear boles 60 ft and more above very large buttresses that may extend 15 ft up the trunk. Trees of M. excelsa 160 to 200 ft high and 4 ft in diameter are reported.

The Wood:

General characteristics: Heartwood yellowish red brown, reddish brown or dark red with paler streaks; sapwood 2 to 6 in. wide, distinct, yellowish to pale brown. Texture moderately fine to rather coarse, rather harsh to the feel; luster medium to high; grain is straight to commonly interlocked, very variable; astringent taste and a slightly sour odor.

Weight: Basic specific gravity (ovendry weight/green volume) 0.76 to 0.84; air- dry density 59 to 65 pcf.

Mechanical Properties: (First set of data based on the 2-in. standard, the second the 2-cm standard.)

Moisture content Bending strength Modulus of elasticity Maximum crushing strength

(%) (Psi) (1,000 psi) (Psi)

Green (75) 12,630 2,330 6,400

12% 22,100 2,960 11,840

Green (42) 13,600 2,150 7,150

12% 24,400 2,790 12,700

Janka side hardness 1,450 lb for green material and 2,300 lb at 12% moisture content. Forest Products Laboratory toughness average for green and dry material is 228 in.-lb. (5/8-in. specimen).

Drying and Shrinkage: Drying reports are variable, generally rated moderately difficult to season; a slow rate of drying and careful stacking are suggested to keep warp and other degrade to a minimum. Boxed heart pieces tend to split. Kiln schedule T2-C2 is suggested for 4/4 stock and T2-C1 for 8/4. Shrinkage from green ovendry radial 6.9%; tangential 9.8%; volumetric 18.8%.

Working Properties: The wood is moderately difficult to work but yields smooth surfaces in sawing, planing, turning, or boring unless interlocked grain is present then there may be considerable "pick up" and chipped grain.

Durability: Results are variable; material from Surinam and Guyana is rated durable to very durable in resistance to brown-rot and white-rot fungi. Service life of 15 to 20 years in ground contact is reported. M. gonggrijpii is rated very resistant to dry-wood termites; M. excelsa considerably less so, not resistant to marine borers.

Preservation: Sapwood responds readily to preservative treatments; heartwood resist to impregnation, penetration is very shallow, and absorptions are low.

Uses: Industrial flooring, railroad crossties, shipbuilding, heavy construction, high quality charcoal wood

Hope that adds some clarity.

Peace,Rich

[Maiden69]

BTW the Author of that book has been trolling arround this site for a while, kinda freaks me out actually.

and I take whatever Rich says as fact....

I don't know what to make out of this comment! I think that you mean visiting the site, since we all know that "trolling" is a term used for people that are looking to make trouble! And I seriously doubt that he is!

[another doug]

I don't know what to make out of this comment! I think that you mean visiting the site, since we all know that "trolling" is a term used for people that are looking to make trouble! And I seriously doubt that he is!

Are you kidding!? He's cost me thousands of dollars!

Sorry to go off-topic, but I couldn't resist the (half)joke!

[Desopolis]

no no, im sorry. I ment trolling as more of lurking.

someone who reads alot, then out of nowhere adds to a thread

[postal]

no no, im sorry. I ment trolling as more of lurking.

someone who reads alot, then out of nowhere adds to a thread

What? Did you *NOT* like the idea of getting advice from a few experts? I appreciate all the insight they have to offer.

To say it is "mahog" can be very misleading as pointed out above. Most commonly found mahogs seem to work okay generally with the huge exception of 'philipine' mahog. Avoid that stufflike the plague. As far as "who" buys from "who".... Dunno, but outfits that can supply enough of the right wood to maintain production of a huge factory, and keep the costs down is who they use.....

Generally the cheaper the guitar, the more pieces of wood are in it- and this is generally considered "bad" 2-3piece bodies are considered the norm for higher quality.

Edited November 8, 2006 by postal

[Desopolis]

**smacks forehead**

I ment, I LIKE the fact that THIS board has larger company names, and luthier celebs roaming the forums. makes me feel the information here is more sound.

PG is almost like reading a book that never ends.. Every thread has a new chapter, it could be a one page question, a 12 page tutorial, or a 143 page discussion on a sustainer.

honestly, PG is a tool that without, I probobly wouldnt even of started.

[Jon]

honestly, PG is a tool that without, I probobly wouldnt even of started.

Ohh, and I'll second that.

[Melvyn Hiscock]

I thought it was time to troll in . . . .

Mahogany has been used as a generic term for mahoganies and similar woods by guitar makers for years. Honduras mahogany is very nice to work but very hard to get hold of for all the right reasons. Other mahoganies can have wilder grain. Most makers used it because Gibson had been using it for years and many guitars are just copies of others.

Alder is used a lot because Fender used it. Leo Fender was, without any doubt, a genius so why did he use alder? Was it that it was a superior 'tone' wood? No, he had started using Ash (because it was stable and cheap) but it needed grain filling beore spraying. Alder didn't and therefore he could cut out several stages in the finishing process and save money. The fact that alder happens to sound great on some guitars was just a bonus.

Not all high end guitars are one or even two piece. I remember seeing an early 1960s Jazzmaster body made of seven pieces and some Strats with quite a few. Roger Giffin and I used to call guitars like this "Friday afternoon Fenders" because it was as if they needed to get the weeek's production numbers so any old piece of wood was glued together. I have had someone call me a liar on a forum when I posted about this guitar. Quite why I would lie about it is beyond me but I was there and I remember it well.

Now, there is a lot of tosh talked about lamination. I have yet to see ANY genuine research data that desrcibes the differences between single piece and laminated bodies and since no one seems to have properly researched it ALL opinions on the differences are just that - opinions.

I have no problems joining two, three or even four pieces together as there are far more factors to consider than the number of bits. If they are good wood and glued together properly I have yet to find a problem.

Remember that the bad name some laminated guitars get is due to them being laminated from inferior wood so is it the lamination of the wood that is the problem?

Also quite a few builders I have seen over the years will go on and on about one-piece bodies but then laminate necks for strength (obviously laminating necks doesn't alter tone and laminating bodies does!)

As with all these things try it and experiment. I happen to love good Honduras mahogany guitars (I have a great '62 SG Les Paul Junior that could melt your teeth enamel) and I also love others. I have mentioned elsewhere on this forum that I have just made a couple of guitars out of cedar (two piece bodies if anyone is measuring) and they are great.

But remember you still have to fit it all together properly and a bad truss rod fit will suck more 'tone' out of your guitar than any amount of laminations.

So, go play and have fun. I am waiting for the workshop planer to get fixed so that I can complete the Douglas Fir neck-through that i am making to prive that you don't NEED to use hardwoods and I might have a play with a few other things.

Who knows, I am a man of mystery . . .

Trolling off now. . . .

[Desopolis]

this is why I love this forum

[Jon]

Also quite a few builders I have seen over the years will go on and on about one-piece bodies but then laminate necks for strength (obviously laminating necks doesn't alter tone and laminating bodies does!)

This made me laugh. I never understood that either. I once read using laminated necks is a poor choice because glue is not a desired tone. Right..

A helpful tip, you don't have to laminate the same woods over and over. If you have two pieces of your desired wood and are short just a small amount, throw in a contrast wood! I did this with my mahogany / wenge body 6-string. It looks freakn beautiful.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b74/Jons...d/6string24.jpg

So pretty.

Edited November 9, 2006 by Jon

[fryovanni]

Also quite a few builders I have seen over the years will go on and on about one-piece bodies but then laminate necks for strength (obviously laminating necks doesn't alter tone and laminating bodies does!)

Trolling off now. . . .

Melvyn,

Have you ever run across any research on laminated necks being stronger? I guess it would be best to clarify. An increase in strength due to the fact the neck has been laminate(not by laminating stronger woods to weaker woods, but simply the process of glueing pieces together). This is a subject that comes up occasionaly and I have never seen a bit of research that could support the idea. Along the same lines what about the idea that laminating pieces improves dimensional stability. My gut tells me yes within reason, but I have never seen a bit of research that confirms it.

Another question for you. Do you think it is harder or easier for the average novice builder to find tonewood today. As compaired to years past. It seems like the internet has made the world a smaller place and wonder if we have it much better today than say a hobbiest that started in ohh.... 1973. Feel free to comment about hardware on other supplies. I have often wondered about this. Because you always hear about how easy it was to get different woods.

Peace,Rich

[Melvyn Hiscock]

Also quite a few builders I have seen over the years will go on and on about one-piece bodies but then laminate necks for strength (obviously laminating necks doesn't alter tone and laminating bodies does!)

Trolling off now. . . .

Melvyn,

Have you ever run across any research on laminated necks being stronger? I guess it would be best to clarify. An increase in strength due to the fact the neck has been laminate(not by laminating stronger woods to weaker woods, but simply the process of glueing pieces together). This is a subject that comes up occasionaly and I have never seen a bit of research that could support the idea. Along the same lines what about the idea that laminating pieces improves dimensional stability. My gut tells me yes within reason, but I have never seen a bit of research that confirms it.

It is the same as for bodies. Lots of opinion backed up with zero research. Pretty much like a lot of stuff really (Violin making has more than it's fair share of this too)

The contrasting thing came in with Alembic. It does mean that you don't have to find big pieces of good wood and can use the smaller pieces that are better quality. I like laminating as I use smaller pieces.

Another question for you. Do you think it is harder or easier for the average novice builder to find tonewood today. As compaired to years past. It seems like the internet has made the world a smaller place and wonder if we have it much better today than say a hobbiest that started in ohh.... 1973. Feel free to comment about hardware on other supplies. I have often wondered about this. Because you always hear about how easy it was to get different woods.

Peace,Rich

In a way I wish you wouldn't call it tonewood. That has come in over the last few years to describe wood used on solids. As far as I am concerned tonewood is spruce and the like used on guitar tops.

There is more access to stuff now that ever before. When I started there was one place in the UK selling guitar parts and there was a choice between cheap japanese pickups and Fender and Gibson. Prices on those were not a lot different to now as I remember. Getting fingerboards and stuff was near on impossible for me. Even fretwire was impossible to find. I laugh now when I see people getting **** about what type to use when we used what we could get!

Wood is easier but the quality has gone down a little. It is hard to find Alder in the UK at the moment. Good mahogany is very expensive and hard to get. I have some Brazilian rosewood fingerboards left and no, you can't have any. For me to be able to shop anywhere in the world for anything is as far away as possible to what was going on the early 1970s.

I used to have to get whatever wood I could from the local woodyard. Maple was out as there was nowhere anywhere near that stocked it. Most of my early guitars were mahogany-types as that was what I could get. It was only when I discovered David Dyke and Touchstone Tonewoods in the late 1970s that it started to get easier as they could also cut the stuff. I think my early customer number at Touchstone was in the early 20s!

However, alternatives always come along. At Giffin's we made some guitars from jelutong.

Remember too that I can remember when heavy guitars were considered best!

MH

[verhoevenc]

In a way I wish you wouldn't call it tonewood... I have some Brazilian rosewood fingerboards left and no, you can't have any!...

Hate to burst your bubble, but I seriously doubt out of ALL people Rich needs your BRW... or would ever ask.

Also, as for your comment on tonewood... does alder, mahogany, or ANY electric guitar wood affect the guitars tone... I'd definately say so, hence.... wood that makes a tonal differences= TONEWOOD. The big companies are all calling electric woods tonewoods (ex: Gilmer), and Rich is one of the most woodly knowledgable people around here/that I know. Times a-change Hiscock, as this thread has shown.

Chris

[guitar2005]

Have you ever run across any research on laminated necks being stronger? I guess it would be best to clarify. An increase in strength due to the fact the neck has been laminate(not by laminating stronger woods to weaker woods, but simply the process of glueing pieces together). This is a subject that comes up occasionaly and I have never seen a bit of research that could support the idea. Along the same lines what about the idea that laminating pieces improves dimensional stability. My gut tells me yes within reason, but I have never seen a bit of research that confirms it.

That's a simple experiment.

Take a single piece of maple (3/4"x1-3/4"x24") from which you will make one piece which measures 3/4"x1-1/2"x12" and make a second piece by laminating two pieces of maple from the same board together to get to 3/4" x 1-1/2"x12".

Firmly clamp both pieces horizontally to something that won't move and cranck a jack under each piece of wood, one after the other and see when they break (i.e. count the number of turns on the jack). When clamping the pieces, making sure that you've measured where the wood is clamped and where the jack is positioned on the wood. You could also go with weights (make the maple support something and add weight until it breaks or cracks)

The laminated piece will not break as easily as the non-laminated piece in my experience. This has nothing to do with guitar building - I'm talking from personal experience as a woodworker. Of course, this assume a strong glue joint with the pieces of maple having been properly jointed and seasoned.