johnuk Posted October 3, 2003 Report Share Posted October 3, 2003 Hi, I bought a router so I can cut the pockets and bits from the mahogany. The first thing I want to do is to route a cavity down the neck for the truss rod. I will be using a 1/4" bit for the pockets at the bridge end. What really gets to me is that Stewmac seem to have purposely chosen a stupid size so you are forced to buy their gear. Their truss rod, the 'Hot Rod', is great otherwise. It is two brass rectangular shapes with the two threaded rods running into each. In between, the rods are covered in red plastic tubing slightly thinner than the brass nuts. The installation recommends a totally stupid router bit size, 7/32's. The nut is very thin (The same size), adding another millimeter and making it routable with a 1/4" bit would be unacceptable it seems, since then you don't need to buy their special routing bit. Would it be totally stupid to route the cavity with a 1/4" bit and then use a millimeter of shim stock either side of the nuts to get a perfect fit? This rod doesn't require any sloping in the cavity, and the only two contact points are the brass nuts. The way I see it, necks are shimmed with plastic cards, bits of paper and the likes. Although a nut is much trickier to get to, shim stock is practically free... special router bits are quite the opposite! The shim stock will of coarse need securing in place with some epoxy to remove the chance of it working loose. Is this a veeeery bad idea or should it be okay? If it's not, do any of you know where I can get metric sized router bits? I only need to make one cut with it. All the best! John (P.S. Have any fo you ever used a Peterson tuner?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsl602000 Posted October 3, 2003 Report Share Posted October 3, 2003 I can hear hear you, John... those bits are expensive. That's the only reason I get my trussrods somewhere else. I think you can get away with the shims, but I'd never ever do that myself. Other than the fact that I hate removing too much wood and the messy look, a trussrod has to be inserted tight to avoid any noises from the rod itself... I'd buy/borrow the Stew Mac bit if I were you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveq Posted October 3, 2003 Report Share Posted October 3, 2003 If you don't want to buy the stewmac bit and don't want to attempt it with a Dremel, I think you would be fine with the 1/4" bit. You will need to put some silicone on the nut anyway, so put a little on each side (1/64th on each side doesn't seem too bad). It may not be ideal but I think it's workable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guitarfrenzy Posted October 3, 2003 Report Share Posted October 3, 2003 If I'm not mistaken those bits are like .225" and are carbide which is good. That's pretty close to 1/4" but I still don't think you'd have good results. That truss rod has to pretty much be placed in the proper cut slot, since that's what makes it work right in the first place. My friend just purchased that bit and he was even kinda mad about the price, but I think it's a good move since he won't have to worry about his high priced neck wood being useless. Just a matter of how you look at it I guess. But first off, any good router bit will not be cheap. Heck guitar building is not cheap. Look at it this way though, you should not have to buy another bit for a long time, so it's kinda a long term investment.. lol... But I'm sure if you look around the internet you can find a bit like that for a cheaper price, and that's good if you can find one, but either way use the right size bit for the job or you might be sorry you didn't later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveq Posted October 3, 2003 Report Share Posted October 3, 2003 That truss rod has to pretty much be placed in the proper cut slot, since that's what makes it work right in the first place Can you explain this a little further? I'm not sure how a 64th on each side would prevent it from working. I'm genuinely curious, not trying to pick a fight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnuk Posted October 3, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 3, 2003 That truss rod has to pretty much be placed in the proper cut slot, since that's what makes it work right in the first place Can you explain this a little further? I'm not sure how a 64th on each side would prevent it from working. I'm genuinely curious, not trying to pick a fight. Thanks for the replies! I think what G.Frenzy means is to do with how the rod expands. As you turn the nut, if the ends aren't held tightly in line with each other, the torque on the nut is enough to make the brass ends turn, rather than the nut pulling against it's own thread. I was just looking at it though, .225" is 5.715mm and 1/4" is 6.35mm, which leaves a 0.635mm gap all together; about 0.3mm either side. I totally understand why many guys would suggest otherwise, I really dislike the idea of not using the correct tool to do something like this as well. This is, however, my first guitar and I'm not luthier yet. I'm 19 and currently jobless, so I don't really have enough money to warrant buying a router bit I'm only planning to use once at the moment, nor do I really have any sort of dedicated work shop or tool room since I still live at home (In fact, I'm currently working on rebuilding our garage and back yard!). $20 isn't much for something that could last me years, but in my last job it took me about 4 and half hours of industrial packing work to earn that much! It was like mentally dying, 12 million make up removing wipes a day.... My router arrived this morning from the kind people at the royal mail. I happened to be walking round in nothing but my shorts when I heard them banging on the door. I was trapped behind a pile of plastic box covers and table tops as I saw the guy going back to the van. That wasn't going to stop me! I bravely leaped the junk, cutting my leg as I went and jumped into my pants on the way downstairs. Now I'm having fun making the cat stick to the ceiling by starting the router in the kitchen. Of coarse.... if anyone is feeling really kind and would loan me their .225" bit for a few days you would have it returned as it was sent and from then on in you'd own my life.... that's right, I'm worth $20... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveq Posted October 3, 2003 Report Share Posted October 3, 2003 I think what G.Frenzy means is to do with how the rod expands. As you turn the nut, if the ends aren't held tightly in line with each other, the torque on the nut is enough to make the brass ends turn, rather than the nut pulling against it's own thread. I guess I could see that being an issue with a larger channel but I still think you'd be OK with the 1/4". Stewmac does have good tech support, if you send them an email about this, they could probably tell you what to expect. The guys I have talked to aren't the type that would push you toward buying something you don't need - I trust them. Of course, having the right tool is comforting - good luck. BTW, where are you located? I've got a series of necks to build but after I get through them I could send the bit to you. I can't guarentee when that will be though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krazyderek Posted October 3, 2003 Report Share Posted October 3, 2003 i doubt someone will lend you a tool..... sorry dude. I faced the same problem when i first got a couple of stew mac rods. They're whole .225 width thing is very clever, it's also the reason i hate them, they do it with one of they're carbon reinforcement rods aswell making you buy yet another single purpose bit I'd say a 64th isn't much to worry about if you're going to put epoxy in the slot to hold one of the brass nuts, i don't know if you should epoxy both in place, i think at least one of the brass ends has to be able to move a bit so you'll have to shim there. I devised a great little jig, well, it still requires you to have a 3/16 router bit 2 shank locks and one 1/2" bearing, but all of which i had, and are probably easily available to you aswell at your local stores. So i made a template as you can see below (the ply wood board in the middle) the 1/2" bearing on the shank follows the cut in the middle that is about 1/32 bigger then 1/2" i do one deep pass very slowly because it is only a single flute bit, and so far my Hot Rod truss rods from stew mac have been fitting in like a glove, if you think you might want to make more then one guitar then i'd suggest the the template route, if not it's probably more economical to just use the 1/4" bit, take your time and do a good job shimming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krazyderek Posted October 3, 2003 Report Share Posted October 3, 2003 .... I could send the bit to you. I can't guarentee when that will be though. *coughs*... woopse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnuk Posted October 3, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 3, 2003 I think what G.Frenzy means is to do with how the rod expands. As you turn the nut, if the ends aren't held tightly in line with each other, the torque on the nut is enough to make the brass ends turn, rather than the nut pulling against it's own thread. I guess I could see that being an issue with a larger channel but I still think you'd be OK with the 1/4". Stewmac does have good tech support, if you send them an email about this, they could probably tell you what to expect. The guys I have talked to aren't the type that would push you toward buying something you don't need - I trust them. Of course, having the right tool is comforting - good luck. BTW, where are you located? I've got a series of necks to build but after I get through them I could send the bit to you. I can't guarentee when that will be though. That's really kind of you Dave, I live in England, so it depends where abouts you are in relation I guess. The only other thing I was thinking of was similar to what Derek said, involving smaller bits. I'll email Stewmac and see what they say! All the best! John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveq Posted October 3, 2003 Report Share Posted October 3, 2003 *coughs*... woopse What was that about? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveq Posted October 3, 2003 Report Share Posted October 3, 2003 Never mind - I see from reading your message. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guitarfrenzy Posted October 3, 2003 Report Share Posted October 3, 2003 That truss rod has to pretty much be placed in the proper cut slot, since that's what makes it work right in the first place Can you explain this a little further? I'm not sure how a 64th on each side would prevent it from working. I'm genuinely curious, not trying to pick a fight. I asked Stew Mac about that one time and they said basically what johnuk stated about the rod twisting some. That's the whole principle of the design. Also, your not suppose to use epoxy with those style truss rods, only a bit of silicon at the both nuts. I guess what I really was trying to say was, " If your gonna build something, why not build it right in the first place" basically. I don't really see an issue with it as long as it works, I just can't tell him to do it and not ever use that wide of bit. I just don't want my name on it, if he trys it and ends up having a usless piece of wood on his hands. No offense anyway, we are all here to bounce ideas off each other to learn. It might work perfectly to use a slightly wider bit, but like I said, if your doing it to save money, then your into the wrong hobby, because to do things right sometimes you have to make an investment. Matt P.S. Please call stew-mac.. Don't take my word for anything other than my own experience, they should be able to answer any question you have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnuk Posted October 3, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 3, 2003 Stewmac speakth... John, Thank you for your email. I would be concerned about using a 1/4" channel because the rod may lean over or twist in the extra space even when tacked down. That could potentially send your neck into a undesired twist. I suggest purchasing the proper bit. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Looks as if I'm going the KrazyDerek route! Like I say G.Frenzy, I totally understand what you're saying. I'm not trying to get a work of art for nothing, I'm just trying to apply some brain power to it before I buy too much else in case there is some way I can achieve the same effect with tools I already have; am I using this guitar in a way to see if I enjoy building a guitar. I would probably have said what you had said if I owned the bit myself, so I appreciate that you're trying to help me! Now all I need is to find a smaller bit! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnuk Posted October 4, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 4, 2003 How about the slot drills by Chronos? They're under the milling cutters section. They do a 5.5mm version, .2mm smaller than Stewmacs. I measured my truss rod as being 5.63mm wide using a micrometer. www.chronos.ltd.uk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guitarfrenzy Posted October 4, 2003 Report Share Posted October 4, 2003 We'll best of luck on your project.. just hope your good at lining up the template and that the template doesn't slip. Keep those 2 things in mind. Also, I wish I remebered the names of the people on this forum who told me it didn't cost much to build my own guitars when I first got started.. lol Talk about misinformation... So one more time, just so you will remember who told ya first.. lol.... THIS HOBBY COST ALOT!!!!!!.. Have you got the fretboard, fretwire, inlay material, truss rod cover, tuners? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
syxxstring Posted October 4, 2003 Report Share Posted October 4, 2003 I cut a channel for one yesterday by using the table saw. the blades 1/8 wide so i cut down the center line and then realligned the fence to shave a little more. a little sanding and a slight tap of the hammer and it was in. not the easiest way and somewhat time consuming, but it got the job done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnuk Posted October 4, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 4, 2003 Guitar Frenzy, I don't know if you saw recently, but some guy on ebay ripped me off when I bought some tuners from him. They're going back to be refunded. I have the fret board, I went with a piece of ebony. I used WinFret to print out a fret template and have the fret positions marked out with a scalpel. I play using ernie ball hybrid 9's, so I chose an evil 27" Ibanez baritone scale for this neck hoping that it would help increase string tension for a strength with lower chording, rather than having the strings twang out on me if I go extreme on them. I don't really like truss rod covers so I'm just going to have the end as it is on the Chrome Chick, that is just under the nut. Inlay material, not yet... I was wondering what to use. I wanted to flame the top with a blue fiddle back maple veneer. I wanted it to look more streamline than overly ornate, so I ruled out mother of pearl and abalone (sp?). I was actually thinking of perhaps using phenolic plastic and painting blue glow in the dark on the backs of them so they glow a tiny bit in the dark; not like LED's, I mean just enough so they're visible and kind of eiry looking. I don't know though. We have a CNC jewelery mill in school which I could use to cut a complex 12th fret inlay. Fretwire, I didn't want to order from Stewmac. I have read somewhere that the wire on the Ibanez JS10th is from Warmoth, or very similar to one they sell. So I wanted to get that from Warmoth instead (I need something else from them as well). I don't like the feeling when I change between guitars and the fret sizes change along with the fret board radius, I'd prefer it to be consistent. What annoys me is the blank postage rate these places charge. For instance, if I order a piece of inlay material alone form Stewmac, they'll probably apply a fixed rate postage to England of something like $16. A piece of inlay material would go in an envelope with a 30p stamp on it. However, I have a lot of time to buy these parts since my 'neck' is nothing like a neck at the moment. It's a 6" x 20mm blank of hardwood about a metre long with an Ibanez headstock profile sticky taped to the end! While I'm getting the fret wire and the rest I was planning to cut the truss rod channel, the pickup slots and bridge recess, then use a coping saw to hand cut the profile of the neck out the blank. Then it should be ready for gluing the board into place. As I won't have profile the back of the neck by the time I glue the board into place, would it be better to cut the slots with the board glued to the neck or with it off the neck? Does anyone know where I can find a routing diagram for a floating float rose original? The manual that came with the Floyd doesn't show you how to cut the pocket for a floating bridge. The standard tone block sticks out the back of the 1 1/2" blank, so it's going to the horizontal mill some day soon! All the best! John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnuk Posted October 8, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 8, 2003 I return from installing the truss rod! I found a very small router bit from our Dremel. I also found that the smallest collet from the Dremel would actually fit into the collet on in my router. But that the router bit would not fit into the smallest collet. I am lucky enough to have a CNC lathe, so I very gently took some of the shaft off the router bit. I was then able to fit the router bit into the smallest collet, and this into the router itself. I used 30,000 rpm, very small cuts and slow transverse speeds. It took a good while to cut the cavity but the router bit was fine all the way thru. I was worried it might begin deflecting, it didn't. I think it took me about 3 - 4 passes to cut the cavity down to it's right depth, then I did the walls. The truss rod sits perfectly in it. I'm having to tidy the ends of the cavity up a bit by hand since the ends obviously didn't meet perfectly, but that's nothing serious. The router bits from Dremel are about 2 pounds I think so if you only need to do this once, this may be an option for you. If I did this again I would have drilled a pilot hole at the ends of the cavity so they were tidy from the start, but again... nothing major! John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krazyderek Posted October 8, 2003 Report Share Posted October 8, 2003 hmmm, sounds interesting, but i can't really follow, so you routed by hand? pics? sloting the fingerboard might be easiest before you blue it to the neck, just follow steve's tutorial here (scroll to the bottom) it'll make you're life a bit easier if you're fretboard is still a prefect rectangle, As for the floyd routing check out the comparision comparision chart thread that's pinned at the top of the solid body section, you should find what you're looking for there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnuk Posted October 8, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 8, 2003 I did something similar to what you suggested, but without the template. I am having the adjusting nut under the locking nut, so my cavity only had to be a simple rectangle. I used the routers own fence to guide the bit down the centre of the neck, the neck is still in the form of a 146mm wide plank and made two cuts side by side. Like I say, I should have really drilled two points for the ends of the rod and then joined them up with the tracks routed later. Instead I've done it in kind of reverse, and now should really drill the ends to form a nice perfect radi on them... but some sand paper seems to have done quite well. I'm taking photos but I must be the only person now without a digital camera, so they're going on our superb, hyper expensive SLR and will have to be scanned when I'm done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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