Side Bending (with Pipe)

[rto]

So my woodshop class starts next week and i badly want to build an archtop or acoustic but the one thing thats holding me back is the side bending...

Everytime i see pictures of the process (with a heated pipe) i get somewhat discouraged becuse it looks like it would be insanely difficult to get the sides to actually match and fit the top/bottom.

So if someone with experience doing this could expand on it, that would be helpful.

Also, i was wondering, in this pic - http://www.cpthorntonguitars.com/images/sh...hrough-Neck.jpg

I know that^ is only semi-hollow but it looks like the sides are cut out on a band saw or router? Would that be an alternative to bending sides for an archtop? If it is that would make my build a hell of a lot easier.

Edited January 29, 2008 by rto

[fryovanni]

So my woodshop class starts next week and i badly want to build an archtop or acoustic but the one thing thats holding me back is the side bending...

Everytime i see pictures of the process (with a heated pipe) i get somewhat discouraged becuse it looks like it would be insanely difficult to get the sides to actually match and fit the top/bottom.

So if someone with experience doing this could expand on it, that would be helpful.

Also, i was wondering, in this pic - http://www.cpthorntonguitars.com/images/sh...hrough-Neck.jpg

I know that^ is only semi-hollow but it looks like the sides are cut out on a band saw or router? Would that be an alternative to bending sides for an archtop? If it is that would make my build a hell of a lot easier.

One question, Are you able to or willing to build several molds and jigs? If someone with experience told you exactly what you need and how to get solid results, would you be willing to follow that advise without taking shortcuts?

There is nothing wrong with cutting or routing sides out of a solid body blank, as in the link you show.

Peace,Rich

[rto]

So my woodshop class starts next week and i badly want to build an archtop or acoustic but the one thing thats holding me back is the side bending...

Everytime i see pictures of the process (with a heated pipe) i get somewhat discouraged becuse it looks like it would be insanely difficult to get the sides to actually match and fit the top/bottom.

So if someone with experience doing this could expand on it, that would be helpful.

Also, i was wondering, in this pic - http://www.cpthorntonguitars.com/images/sh...hrough-Neck.jpg

I know that^ is only semi-hollow but it looks like the sides are cut out on a band saw or router? Would that be an alternative to bending sides for an archtop? If it is that would make my build a hell of a lot easier.

One question, Are you able to or willing to build several molds and jigs? If someone with experience told you exactly what you need and how to get solid results, would you be willing to follow that advise without taking shortcuts?

There is nothing wrong with cutting or routing sides out of a solid body blank, as in the link you show.

Peace,Rich

Because i would be doing this project in school, i would be tight on time because we will only be in the shop once or twice a week until the final month of the semester and i'm not sure if i would have the time to finish if i where to also build the molds/jigs used to bend sides. i have seen pictures of homemade side bending machines etc. but im not sure yet if our teacher would let us build them at home and bring it to school because we normally have to do all our work in class.

But if routing sides out of a solid body blank will work, i think that would be the best way for me to build my first guitar because its something i would understand better.

thanks for the reply.

[verhoevenc]

If you're tight on time, forget about it IMO. You spend A LOT of time on your first build making jigs, molds, etc.

I say go with, what I like to call, the Neo-Archtop. It's what you have pictured there... but gone one step farther and hollows the WHOLE body with a router and doesn't leave a center block. Therefore, it can be braced and carved on the top just like an ACTUAL archtop. Check out www.Mykaguitars.com and there's progress pics of his builds with this method down at the bottom of his Gallery section. He is a MASTER and one of the pioneers in this school of thought. He does some VERY cool things and hopefully he'll join in here and say a word or two. I think this is your best way to go if you want an acoustically impacted instrument without bending sides.

Chris

[Woodenspoke]

So my woodshop class starts next week and i badly want to build an archtop or acoustic but the one thing thats holding me back is the side bending...

Everytime i see pictures of the process (with a heated pipe) i get somewhat discouraged becuse it looks like it would be insanely difficult to get the sides to actually match and fit the top/bottom.

So if someone with experience doing this could expand on it, that would be helpful.

Also, i was wondering, in this pic - http://www.cpthorntonguitars.com/images/sh...hrough-Neck.jpg

I know that^ is only semi-hollow but it looks like the sides are cut out on a band saw or router? Would that be an alternative to bending sides for an archtop? If it is that would make my build a hell of a lot easier.

Am I the only old timer here. On my very first build I bent purple heart on a hot pipe clamped in a vice. I had no wood working skills no jig no nothing (no internet) just a book. The sides just seemed to bend without any difficulty. I believe I worked off a full size pattern I made from the book. I still have the guitar and if I didn't make the neck like a baseball bat I would love it and play it more, the sound is sweet. keep thinking on scraping the whole neck / fingerboard and making a real one.

What I am trying to say is just go for it. I just followed the book which probably said just keep the side moving so you don't put a sharp bend in the side LOL.

Is this my choice now no way. I use a side bender less stressful but also takes so much less skill.

Don't sweat it, worry about it then do it. If you are doing an archtop making the top is the hard part especially if its maple. Also each wood species has its own bending do's and dont's. I suggest you search for the wood you want to use and do a Goggle search on bending (insert species here).

[Mr. Preston Swift]

I would go with the neo-archtop design that Verhoevenc brought up. You have to trust me when i say that the first one will take time, i'm still building mine. During the first one you learn the whole process and what to do and what not to do. I don't think you'd have enough time to finish one even if you worked fast. But the neo arch top design sounds pretty cool. Also the guitar in that link looks sort of like a more solid kind of ES 335 cause the mid section is suspended. Very cool stuff.

[mongrel666]

Hey, just a lurker but anyhow...

Generally there is a bit of give and take anyway, especially with accoustics. The top and back are fitted to the bent sides so as long as it flows and you are fairly close...

I have found that pipe bending allows quite a bit of back and fourth movement in the apex, you are using the pipe to heat the area you wish to bend not necessarily conforming your timber to the pipes shape. Some forms are nothing more than a piece of MDF with strategically placed dowels poking out so that you can keep the shape in the timber as it cools. Some timbers will stay pliable for quite a time before re hardening, sometimes you can just hold the bend on your bench on the pattern for a minute while it cools. Jigs and stuff are great, dont get me wrong, but you can build without them, It is just more tedius. tho you'd be amazed how much time can pass while your happily holding your sides in shape...

good luck probably too late but still ...

jason

[Prostheta]

Interesting. I'm planning a build with the "neo archtop" style inner core, but also bending wood used for acoustic sides to "veneer" the outside of this core. That way I can justify using a generally unattractive wood (plain maple) for the core and other internal pieces, and not worry about turning a beautiful figured billet into router chips and dust. I am planning on bending the "sides" using a heated pipe as I can't justify the expense of a pre-built bending iron at this stage. The veneers themselves are only going to be 1-1/2" wide maximum so I think moulds would be overkill....any caveats or advice on this, such as issues with scorching, estimating pipe temperature, staining during the bending process etc?

[fryovanni]

Interesting. I'm planning a build with the "neo archtop" style inner core, but also bending wood used for acoustic sides to "veneer" the outside of this core. That way I can justify using a generally unattractive wood (plain maple) for the core and other internal pieces, and not worry about turning a beautiful figured billet into router chips and dust. I am planning on bending the "sides" using a heated pipe as I can't justify the expense of a pre-built bending iron at this stage. The veneers themselves are only going to be 1-1/2" wide maximum so I think moulds would be overkill....any caveats or advice on this, such as issues with scorching, estimating pipe temperature, staining during the bending process etc?

Best advise is to build that mold, and use blankets.

Stepping back from a mold, you wind up with many variables that make the process tuffer, and harder to control/guage. Using pipe over blankets same deal. All the typical rules apply, temp, staining protection, support. Difference is everything will be harder to achive with even, clean results. Good chance you will spend a fair bit of time trying to true up your sides, you may break a set or two depending on your cutoways.

Good Luck,

Rich

[Prostheta]

Thanks Rich - staining is one my major concerns, especially as i'm planning on using maple - de-ionised water sounds like a given on this one I guess. I suppose that thinning the maple down to less than is usually used for acoustic sides will help with pliability, but i'm wondering at which point this can become a problem with the curly grain cracking out. I suspect that 1.0mm to 1.5mm is a good zone to aim for. Thicker than veneer, thinner than sides.

If push comes to shove, making a mould won't be a huge job but perhaps a little wasteful for this one job? The same thinking applies to using a $160 electrical iron. I was considering using simple readily available 0.6mm veneer, but it seems to wrinkle and dirty up very easily. I may try it anyway to see how it goes, but something more substantial and "real" feels better to me somehow.

[fryovanni]

Thanks Rich - staining is one my major concerns, especially as i'm planning on using maple - de-ionised water sounds like a given on this one I guess. I suppose that thinning the maple down to less than is usually used for acoustic sides will help with pliability, but i'm wondering at which point this can become a problem with the curly grain cracking out. I suspect that 1.0mm to 1.5mm is a good zone to aim for. Thicker than veneer, thinner than sides.

If push comes to shove, making a mould won't be a huge job but perhaps a little wasteful for this one job? The same thinking applies to using a $160 electrical iron. I was considering using simple readily available 0.6mm veneer, but it seems to wrinkle and dirty up very easily. I may try it anyway to see how it goes, but something more substantial and "real" feels better to me somehow.

Thinning the sides if your bending a tight radius is a good way to prevent cracking during bending. You gain a lot of strength in an area with a sharp bend(the side itself is stronger), so thinning is not really going to hurt anything.

Peace,Rich

[Prostheta]

I presume that with thinner wood in a bend, the fibres tend to compress more as opposed to compressing on the inside of the bend and thinning/cracking out on the outside?