Mickguard Posted August 10, 2008 Report Share Posted August 10, 2008 Still sorting out my sound...the new band played our first gig last night. Went really well, except I'm not satisfied with the sound I'm producing. We're a two-piece -- guitar and drums. I run my guitar through two amps. The first (Vox AC15) stays relatively clean, only gets a tubescreamer. The second (Laney VC15) gets all the effects -- it's main job is add noise/sounds/fuzz. But it only has a 10" speaker so it seriously lacks in bass tones. I can run it through a 2x12 cabinet, which helps, but I don't really want to lug that around to gigs. Not until we have roadies! And besides, it still doesn't fill in the missing bass tones from the sound spectrum. So I'm wondering if I'll have more luck using a bass amp as a second amp. I'm really looking to reinforce the low end -- without sacrifing the midrange (the Vox covers the higher frequencies pretty well, but also doesn't capture the low end much). I'm not trying to emulate a bass guitar--but I do want to be able to capture some of that frequency range (not the ultra lows of course). I do have an octave pedal, but that's only for specific songs, it won't sound right on the noisier stuff we do. Before I go shopping though, I'd like some opinions -- will a bass amp get me where I want to be? I don't know anyone who can lend me one to try out. I might end up using three amps -- keeping the Laney but adding the bass amp. Basically my goal is to create a wall of sound. We'll be putting some demos up on our myspace site soon, you'll see what I mean -- I've been able to get close to what I want by using EQ plugins in the like to boost the lows -- so another option could be adding an EQ pedal to my board...running out of room on that though! A followup question: considering that I'm using a 15-watt tube/12" speaker amp as the main amp, how many watts do I want the bass amp to be? I'm looking at a 180-watt Ashdown for example, has a 15" speaker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borge Posted August 10, 2008 Report Share Posted August 10, 2008 (edited) bass amps are full range unlike guitar amps (well the speakers specifically) which roll off around 5k so may want to ran a cab sim/di box or something to roll off anything over 5k to get rid of that harsh top end. I'd say you would have better results by using a guitar amp and/or cab with more bottom end, my experience of guitar through bass amps is dissapointing. that said i play through a 59' bassman 50 clone!(through guitar speakers of course) but who uses them for bass anyway! Edited August 10, 2008 by borge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickguard Posted August 10, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 10, 2008 my experience of guitar through bass amps is dissapointing. Well, I'm specifically trying to reinforce the bass tones, if that helps. The other amp will still sound like a guitar (I can also use the 2x12 cab I have with that too). Anyway, this is the amp that I'm looking at. Price is right, and it won't be too heavy to cart around. I like it that it has a separate levels for the subharmonics and it looks like you can adjust the bass and mid-frequencies? It also has its own effect loop, I can run an EQ through that. And I've always liked the look of Ashdowns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dudz Posted August 10, 2008 Report Share Posted August 10, 2008 If you want a thicker bass but still want some brightness you could go with a fender bassman! Another cheaper alternative is to use a fender hot rod or blues amp as with the bass and mids set high and the highs lowered you can get bg thick sounds with plenty of clarity on cleans and a thick warm distortion. You can also get the extension cab with 1 12 inch speaker for more oomph! Another trick is to change the angle that the amp is at. If tilted the right way you can get instant bass or treble boost! Those are just some ideas for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borge Posted August 11, 2008 Report Share Posted August 11, 2008 Anyway, this is the amp that I'm looking at. Price is right, and it won't be too heavy to cart around. I like it that it has a separate levels for the subharmonics and it looks like you can adjust the bass and mid-frequencies? It also has its own effect loop, I can run an EQ through that. And I've always liked the look of Ashdowns. the thing is, bass amp eqs (modern bass amps particularly) are designed for a bass guitar, they often adjust frequencies guitars dont create (low end) or want (high end,>5k, presence, bright switches) and the other controls (mids, treble) are centred at different frequencies than guitar amps so dont "feel" the same or react how you would hope. If you want a thicker bass but still want some brightness you could go with a fender bassman! +1 that said i play through a 59' bassman 50 clone!(through guitar speakers of course) but who uses them for bass anyway! Another cheaper alternative is to use a fender hot rod or blues amp as with the bass and mids set high and the highs lowered you can get bg thick sounds with plenty of clarity on cleans and a thick warm distortion. You can also get the extension cab with 1 12 inch speaker for more oomph! Another trick is to change the angle that the amp is at. If tilted the right way you can get instant bass or treble boost! Those are just some ideas for you. good ideas, I'd say better results would be had by doing those, might be still worth trying (before buying!) a bass amp though just incase its works for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpcrash Posted August 11, 2008 Report Share Posted August 11, 2008 one other suggestion, we've used to help with thickness is mic positioning when going through a PA. Surprising how moving it away from center can affect sound. Kinda the same as angling, but we always angle some speakers so we can dedicate the monitors to vocals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickguard Posted August 11, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 11, 2008 Okay, thanks guys. I think I understand where I've been going wrong now. Instead of looking at the setup as a Clean side/FX side, I should be looking at it as a Lead side/ Bass side. The octave pedal I have has a nice drive function -- that plus the EQ box into a 2x12 cabinet gets me a pretty full bass sound, without getting too flabby. I'd prefer a combo though, just easier to carry around. But that's not an urgent purchase. Meanwhile, I can place whatever lead-type effects on the Vox's chain. Right now I have a synthwah for that. I'm looking at picking up a ring modulator or similar, or a feedback looper. I'm also going to have a bass synth in a couple of weeks, seems to make sense to put that on the bass side -- it has an expression pedal input for 'playing' the cutoff filter/resonance filter. I have the bass side going to an echo/delay --but maybe that makes more sense on the lead side? All sorts of possibilities...the major limit is that it all has to fit on my pedal board (which is built to fit into the flight case I have--and to fit at the foot of the mike stand). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dudz Posted August 13, 2008 Report Share Posted August 13, 2008 I have recorded a bunch of tone samples from my hot rod deluxe using only my guitar and my amp. Keep in mind I did this early in the morning before I really was awake so it is sloppy. I have the bass set at about 7 the treble 10 mids full prescence 10 and the drive is at 10 for distortion parts. Also be aware that the pickups on the guitar I used are very bright even the humbucker is very bright especially for a humbucker! http://profile.ultimate-guitar.com/tmd9314/music/all/play389564 first was clean channel neck pickup (strat single coil) then clean channel bridge humbucker then coil tapped bridge pickups clean then neck pickup drive channel then more neck pickup on more drive channel (Zeppelin Time!) then bridge pickup humbucker more drive channel then back to neck pickup messing with the volume controls still on more drive channel (ends up going into Jimi Time!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted August 14, 2008 Report Share Posted August 14, 2008 I am not entirely sure of the effect you want to create but you may well wish to check out the Mermen...he uses two or three amps with various effect chains and sounds and a volume pedal I think between them...interesting band, huge sound! As a progressive surf band guitarist Jim Thomas uses two guitar leads with the middle pickup feeding a different amp and effects for the wall of noise kind of effect blended with the typical reverb drenched surf sounds...Merman Vid link... Speaking of surf...dick dale used 15" speakers for a similar wall of sound effect. When I used to play live (many years ago now) in bands, without instrument pA mic-ing...I used a combo with an aluminium domed 12" and 15" bass cab. This created a pretty big sound and moved a lot of air. For an even bigger sound, I once had it rigged with an old valve amp into the bass box and the combo splitting the signal with an EH clone theory...massively huge sound. The first time I tried it where I used to live above a shop, I had a kid knocking on the door who wanted to know how the hell I got that sound...the ultimate test of tone I still have the bass box sitting in the hall (makes a good piece of furniture ) and is what I would use with my present set up if I ever jam with a band or want to play loudish... Fender deluxe amp, 15" sealed/ported bass box (still wearing the battle scars and drink stains on the grill!) and my AD100 delay. If I wanted to play really loud and for a wall of sound effect I could also bring the original SS combo and split the signal with the delay to get a dry and wet sound and about 100 watts bouncing around ... I don't like the sound of the drive and more drive channels but the clean sound and reverb on the deluxe is classic fender and very good. It also is very good for taking effects such as distortion which is preferable to me than these channels. By splitting with delay or chorus or separate reverbs through dual amps you get a three dimensional effect and various levels of depth that can give a kind of surround sound kind of feel. You could use similar effects to split the signal between two amps and run different effects chains through each if you want to get far out with the thing. But, each to their own...as I say, I rarely play that loud that I want to shift that much air so I generally just use the combo on it's own...plenty loud enough! pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickguard Posted August 14, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2008 I am not entirely sure of the effect you want to create Ah, that's the million dollar question...I'm still working on sorting this out. The music is highly repetitive, rather minimalist stuff -- I'm basically repeating the same riff over and over (with occasional finger extensions), and adding or focusing on notes depending on which section of the strings I'm targeting with the pick. I work with a power drummer, similar to what I'm hearing right now with the Mermen vid (thanks for that...extremely cool stuff), lots of tom work, very heavy hitter. Means I'm required to play fairly loud -- but I'm not interested in blistering my ears (I actually wear plugs when we practice, although sometimes we practice through a headphone amp too). I use 15 watt amps in order to get into the power tube overdrive range as much as possible. So I'm looking to lay down a foundation of sound from which I can make the various 'lead' sounds appear -- the lead sounds (i.e., the bits that keep the repetition interesting) range from just the added finger extension notes and treble strings, to what I can throw off using pedals. Right now I have a SynthWah for that, I'm waiting for a Bass Synth (with expression input) and I'm also searching for the 'right' ring mod (with photo eye if possible). The basic riff sound should sound like a guitar crossed with an analog synthesizer (depends on the song). I'm using a tubescreamer to get a rounder overdrive tone at lower volumes. I'll probably add a fuzz on that side too. But I find we're lacking bottom in the sound -- especially at our gig (our first!) last week, which was outdoor. So I'm trying to emulate/reinforce/produce the frequencies of a bass guitar to inject into the mix. I get pretty close with the 2x12 cabinet and EQ box, but the sound lacks focus. I've added an octave pedal--that helps a lot-- but then the sound farts out a bit (not a great pedal, the tracking is a little shaky -- I have a new one coming in a couple of weeks). I also have a fuzz pedal on the bass side for some of the songs (I like the fuzz placed before the octaver) which brings out more boom. As for the "lead" sounds -- I don't want them to dominate the sound spectrum, I want them to rise up from within, ride on top, fade away again--all the while keeping the repetitive riff driving away. I'm finding it difficult to find the proper mix though. I've tried three amps, but for the moment that's just even more difficult to control. Since the Synthwah had two outputs (dry/wet), I'm wondering if I can run them into a blend box that will allow me to adjust the wet/dry mix before continuing them into the chain? Don't know why they didn't provide a knob for that on the box itself. Maybe even a box with a SMALL volume pedal, that will allow me to adjust the wet levels on the fly.... Maybe I'll try the three-amp set up again, dedicate the third amp for the 'lead' effects, but use a volume pedal...I'm leery of having too much clutter at my feet. Edit: I just tried out the three-amp rig with a volume pedal. This actually works really well, I'm able to control the blend of sounds a lot more, and throw off the 'lead' noises I want. I'd prefer to be able to do this with just two amps, of course (less to drag around and worry about). And I wish the volume pedal wasn't so huge -- I might have to build a second pedal board for the 'performance' pedals, and use the existing board for always-on stuff. Funny how complicated minimalism can be, eh? I should mention that I'm not interested in producing pure noise -- I still want it to remain fairly musical. And of course, people need to be able to hear me sing... I do have a dual-loop -- right now I'm using one part of that for the tuner, the second part's send is for both chains (with no return--functions as a kill switch, because I generate a lot of noise with the various effects-- sounds really cool when I smack the sound into silence). Wish I had the budget for the EH Hog...that would get me much closer to what I'm looking for. But the budget's kind of tight this year...we need a few gigs first... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted August 17, 2008 Report Share Posted August 17, 2008 That clip was not the usual lineup or gig...what you need is something like this holding down the bottom end... Merman's super hot bass player Jennifer Obviously the cameraman was fixated! I am not sure of the effect, but generally analog synth sounds and such don't track at all well if they are polyphonic at all...meaning they will glitch wildly with multiple notes...a traditional octave divider is a good example...boss octaver, etc. If you are producing bass tones, perhaps another amp needs to be required to handle the low frequencies without messing with the normal guitar sounds. It is asking a lot for speakers to try and reproduce these kinds of sounds and at a broad spectrum at that. I take it you aren't using loops for these riffs to play over...so it is a little tricky to get the idea of the sound you are creating. If you are, again multi amping is the solution generally...minimalism is not an easy way out! .... As you can see, my hidden surf influences are coming out. Playing this kind of thing is so much fun and not having to rely on a vocal PA helps a lot. You may find a few of the newer harder hitting surf bands like Slacktone...Dusty is one of the hardest hitting drummers ever, of interest, but I can't think of any band without a bass player that really substitutes for a bass player that well...perhaps The Doors with the foot pedal bass or something...but with vocals and guitar you sound as if you already ahve your hands full! pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted August 17, 2008 Report Share Posted August 17, 2008 Apologies for skimreading the thread if this has been mentioned, or the tack has changed. I use a specific plugin to improve the bass sound of my mixes, which you can also buy as a rackmount unit for doing the same. Rather than adding actual bass, it reinforces the fundamental frequency's overtones in order to create the perception of a more powerful bass end especially if your speakers are poor at reproducing low end. http://www.waves.com/Content.aspx?id=173 I find it very useful as it turns down the low frequencies (which require more power and headroom to project) allowing me to make my mixes louder without compression at mastering time recolouring my EQ. I've never tried the hardware unit, but on the strength of the plugin I believe it would achieve the same impressive results. Alternatively, a good multiband compressor could do the trick by tightening up the low/mids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted August 24, 2008 Report Share Posted August 24, 2008 As for the "lead" sounds -- I don't want them to dominate the sound spectrum, I want them to rise up from within, ride on top, fade away again--all the while keeping the repetitive riff driving away. I'm finding it difficult to find the proper mix though. I've tried three amps, but for the moment that's just even more difficult to control. I know exactly what you mean....I am always having problems with that...I have to back off the gain(I don't know if that has anything to do with you though)and make sure I always play through good speakers(I use celestion vintage 30s right now,but for what I thnk you play,these are much better.. http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Jen...aker?sku=665005 Trust me Mick...these are absolutely the BEST speakers for bluesy rock of any sort...and about 100 light years better than what comes inside your standard 15 watt amp these days...it will also allow you to crush your power amp with more juice,as the speaker is a bit heavier to push... I put two of the 100 watt versions of these in my fender twin reverb II and I have to say,I could ask for nothing more....so much warmth,clarity,and prescence... That is most likely yor issue...those small speakers don't handle multiple tones well... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickguard Posted August 24, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 24, 2008 I'm planning to change the speaker in my Vox when I change the tubes (which won't be until they start to fail). Although I like the sound of the existing speaker well enough -- it'd be nice to find someone with the same amp who has already changed the speaker. I like Pete's suggestion -- a cute female bassplayer would definitely help fill out the bottom end... I'm not against adding a third player, but that's going to have to wait until just the right person comes along. I don't want to add any more hardware though -- I always do this, add more and more gear until I reach a saturation point and end up getting nowhere. I'd consider getting a bigger two-channel amp, the kind that let two instruments plug in at the same time. I'm also going to experiment with adding different octave boxes together-- sort of a poor man's HOG. Unless there's a potential of phase cancellation with that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitar2005 Posted August 24, 2008 Report Share Posted August 24, 2008 (edited) Get a marshall DSL head, engage the deep switch and you'll have all the bass you'll ever need with at least a 2x12. You can always add a bit of reverb/delay to fatten up the sound too. Edited August 24, 2008 by guitar2005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickguard Posted August 25, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2008 Get a marshall DSL head, engage the deep switch and you'll have all the bass you'll ever need with at least a 2x12. You can always add a bit of reverb/delay to fatten up the sound too. Heh...too bad all the good solutions would cost me upwards to a grand. We'll see what comes up used around here though. I tried to find a demo of the fat switch and wasn't able too. I'm tempted to look into a baritone guitar --or something like that Fender VI. At least for the songs that need the bottom end more than the top end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted August 25, 2008 Report Share Posted August 25, 2008 Those deep switches are way too bassey...they make the speakers fart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickguard Posted August 27, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 27, 2008 Those deep switches are way too bassey...they make the speakers fart. Well, I'm on the slope toward 50...the farts come out all by themselves I just received a Guyatone Micro Octaver and a Behringer Bass synth....the Guyatone tracks really well, gets an excellent deep bass sound without too much distortion. They suggest placing a compression before the pedal and playing on the neck pickup, which help the tracking. Another nice thing is that the pedal's is really small, helps to fit it on my pedal board. The Behringer (BSY600) seemed pretty great too -- definitely got some great analog synth sounds there, with lots of options for waveforms... except that a few minutes after powering it up the unit fizzed out...takes down the rest of the daisy chain too (when it's plugged in, the other pedals' lights start blinking) and when I try it with a battery, the battery gets hot really fast. On the positive side, Behringer responded to my email within about three hours --they're going to replace the box, and even pay the shipping. So props go to them for that. In the meantime, the Guyatone gets a pretty convincing bass tone out of it -- I'm looking to borrow a bass amp right now, to test that out. I might still replace one of my guitar amps with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j. pierce Posted September 2, 2008 Report Share Posted September 2, 2008 I second the previously proposed idea of a new speaker - I use a HOG pretty frequently - (Expensive when I bought it, but it turns out being totally worth it in my book just for the fun it's given me making noises in my practice space, let alone all the cool useful things I can do with it - and running the sound out of that through an Octavia or Scrambler type pedal gets you some huge synth tones I think you'd enjoy) I'm often filling up a *lot* of low end with it - at times faking a Cello, at other times going for a fat monophonic bass synth sound or whatever, and running it all through my pedal board and into a Crate V30H. After I replaced my speakers (and I'm only using Eminence, not something super expensive or nice) I was totally blown by the sounds I could get out of my amp. I was rattling the light fixtures just as much as the low end of my bass players (and now keyboardists) rig did. Another thing that might be worth trying, particularly if you're getting most of your distortion from the power amp rather than the preamp anyway, is bypassing the pre-amp in that amp that's tuned for a guitar range. Lets you use what you've already got. (And save some money for the HOG!) I don't know if you have a line in or power amp in on that amp, but if you have an effects loop, that very often takes place after the preamp and before the power amp. How you go about this depends on the signal levels that the return loop is expecting to see, but often times they're looking for a line-level signal. Check your manual. Plug a direct box, or a small preamp (you could make something fairly easily and cheaply if you're handy with a soldering iron) at the end of your signal chain, and then go into the return side of the effects loop. You might even be able to get by with the output from a graphic EQ or something similar. This lets you shape the tone in a way that's more conducive to the frequency range you're looking for, but circumventing the tuned-for-guitar EQ. I did something similar when I was a poor dirty punk playing bass in bad bands. All I had was a crappy and beaten down Marshall guitar head. I just ran my bass into an EQ pedal (duct taped to the top of the amp) and into the effects loop return. Had to boost the output of that EQ to max to get decent signal levels, but using this method allowed me to get a bass guitar tone out of the speakers instead of a crappy bass-through-a-guitar-amp tone. I don't know, worth a shot, maybe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickguard Posted September 3, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 3, 2008 I have an old Boss EQ that gives a 12db for each frequency range and for the global output, so that works pretty well through the effect loop. I'll definitely be looking into some EH goodies in the future, but for right now I'm also trying to keep my pedal board down to a manageable size (i.e., it has to fit in the flight case I have). On the other hand, I've been rethinking my dual-amp concept -- I've come to the conclusion that it's just not enough to double the guitar signal, I really need to be able to work with multiple parts. So I've ordered a looper -- the Loop Station RC-2 . I chose this one because it'll fit on my pedalboard and it has a few slots for preset loops, so I won't have to do all the looping live on every song. I'll have an octaver and a bass synth on the pedalboard, so generating convincing bass tones will be easy. One thing I don't understand about loopers is that they don't seem to have wet/dry outputs -- they seem oriented to use with a single amp. But I like the idea of streamlining the rig to one amp anyway, just less to carry. I can run my Vox into the 2x12, which I believe will give me a 3 x 12 rig...should be enough to handle the lows? * Also, the drummer's considering going electronic, either with a full kit or an octopad type rig, so we'll have more options for adding in the extra tones we need that way too. * Followup speaker question: the Vox requires a 16 ohm exterrnal cabinet in order to use the internal speaker as well -- my 2x12 has a switch that operates in 16 ohm, which turns it into stereo -- is that good enough? But does that mean I have to use both input jacks on the cab, or just the one on the stereo side...and in that case, is it looking for a stereo jack? Don't have a manual for the cab... I don't want to blow up the Vox... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borge Posted September 3, 2008 Report Share Posted September 3, 2008 (edited) * Followup speaker question: the Vox requires a 16 ohm exterrnal cabinet in order to use the internal speaker as well -- my 2x12 has a switch that operates in 16 ohm, which turns it into stereo -- is that good enough? But does that mean I have to use both input jacks on the cab, or just the one on the stereo side...and in that case, is it looking for a stereo jack? Don't have a manual for the cab... I don't want to blow up the Vox... each speaker must be 16ohms, so you can run just one side of your stereo 2x12 to give your amp the 16ohm external load. if you try to run both the load will no longer be 16ohm and the vox may not like it. EDIT: a stereo (TRS) jack will be of no use, stereo cabs still use mono plugs, one for left, one for right. Edited September 3, 2008 by borge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted September 3, 2008 Report Share Posted September 3, 2008 So I've ordered a looper -- the Loop Station RC-2 . I chose this one because it'll fit on my pedalboard party.gif and it has a few slots for preset loops, so I won't have to do all the looping live on every song. That is odd...this pedal does not have loop out! You may find a effect hacker that has a mod for this to add a wet out...seems like a fairly big oversight, maybe there is a technical reason, but you wouldn't think so Really though, these are pretty low end devices you are using here...kind of like playing with lego blocks. I like some of the ideas of looping and it may well be the way you should go with this kind of thing but you are significantly upping your workload with vocal chores as well. Pragmatically...once you start getting into this realm, especially with prerecorded loops...you are coming very close to playing along with sample tracks. If the drummer is looking towards electronic drums, this may be a more practical approach to have loops in a sampler (what the loop station really is anyway) triggered by the drummers pads...these samples do not have to be short percussive bips and baps you know. Or device a foot controller to trigger recorded samples in a mini digital recorder or something like that (eg sampler). Better yet would be another player The more parts and frequencies you are dealing with, the faster you are outstripping the amplification you are using and the more pragmatic approach here would be a mini PA (especially if the drummer starts getting into electronics and will so require broad frequency amplification too) with a mixer and maybe using modeling to get the guitar sounds. Another approach could be to structure the arrangement between yourself and the drummer so that the bass drum(s) give you the low end thump and the guitar implies these pitches rather than trying to recreate these very low tones...I know, perhaps not as much fun! Personally, with the amount of equipment you seem to be stacking up or needing, you might need another person to move this stuff around... just some thoughts...pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickguard Posted September 3, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 3, 2008 Better yet would be another player Another approach could be to structure the arrangement between yourself and the drummer so that the bass drum(s) give you the low end thump and the guitar implies these pitches rather than trying to recreate these very low tones...I know, perhaps not as much fun! Personally, with the amount of equipment you seem to be stacking up or needing, you might need another person to move this stuff around... just some thoughts...pete Very difficult to find players around here (boondocks, France). Took me years to find the drummer. But we're definitely open to other players. It just might take a while to find the right one. In the meantime... I'm not afraid of the technology (I've been working with synthesizers since the early 80s), so the looper should be a fun extension for a few of the songs. Some of the songs are quite simple -- really just a guitar riff and drum beat--no need for the looper there. Others are a bit more layered. Some are downright tortured. And yes, one of the reasons the drummer wants to move towards an electronic kit is to have a better control over the sound -- that way we can use the drums exactly as Pete's suggesting, to add in the missing bass tones, other notes/sounds the songs might require. Although it's unlikely I'll be laying down multiple loops live -- most of the songs really only require a backing riff to work. And then for the most part it'll be a matter of launching the riff before launching the rest of the song. Which means we'll still be able to set the tempos 'live' (that is, according to our mood, not according to a preset's tempo). I'm also not trying to reproduce a recorded sound onstage -- I like the live show to be different from what we've recorded, and each live show to be different from the last. The drummer's had experience playing with samplers and the like in his last band, so he's not afraid of the challenge either. I've always been reluctant to use them, because I hate being locked into the same tempo all the time. But for one or two songs a set, that won't be a big deal. The looper can also be used for non-time-based loops too you know .... And yeah, it's surprising but none of the loopers in this range (the RC-20XL, the Jamman, the Headrush) has a dedicated output for the effects. Still, the looper should let me get rid of the extra amp --less to carry around, less to worry about. I should point out that part of the concept of the band is that we're not necessarily working toward a collection of songs which share more or less a similar sound, but more toward an entire show -- that is, the song styles themselves are able to vary fairly widely (held together by a couple of constants, especially my vocal delivery). So each song offers a different opportunity to experiment with the sound. As for the 2x12 thing -- so that will leave me with just 2 x 12 anyway (the Vox's speaker and one of the cab's speakers). Maybe I'll change for a different cab then. Something lighter Oh yeah, another idea I'm working on -- I have an octaver (2 octaves down) and I'm expecting an octave up as well -- I'm wondering if I can feed the inputs of both from a Y-cable , and the use a second Y-cable to blend their signals back together again before moving on in the chain. This way each box will respond to the original signal (and not have one attempt to process the signal of the other). If it works, it should be give an interesting sound... But yeah, the pedalboard's full now ...time to move on to other gear territories.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickguard Posted September 6, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 6, 2008 That is odd...this pedal does not have loop out! You may find a effect hacker that has a mod for this to add a wet out...seems like a fairly big oversight, maybe there is a technical reason, but you wouldn't think so I'm still wondering about this, since the other loopers don't have loop outs either -- even the Headrush, which provides FOUR outputs for the tape echo effect, can't seem to offer a wet/dry option for the looper. Maybe on the next reiteration. In the meantime, I've received the pedal and it is indeed wonderful -- easy to use, sounds great, and it's an amazing practice tool, I really should have picked one up a long time ago -- hours of solo wankerage at the touch of a switch! But the lack of a dedicated FX output is a problem. It's especially important for me since I use tremolo pretty often, and that's in the amp. But I don't want tremolo on the Looper. Also, having both the loop and the live wanking going into the same out starts sounding a little mashed to me, especially since it's difficult to control the levels of both (or all three, if I turn up the drum beat). So I'm still going with a dual amp setup, since I already have a dual looper (that is, the effect loop type), which is a good workaround for the lack of FX out. So the guitar goes into the input of the dual FX loop, and the first switch sends it through the entire effects chain into one half of that. I put a Y-jack at the end of the chain -- one half goes directly into the amp, the other half goes back into the first return on the dual loop. I placed a dummy jack on the second loop's send -- this functions as a kill switch for the guitar signal/effects chain. The output of the dual loop goes into the RC-2, which outputs into the second amp. This way I can record the loop, then hit the kill switch, so only the loop goes to that amp. And I can procede to wank away into the other amp. Or choose to go into both amps anyway (gets a decent stereo effect). Instead of having a dummy on the second FX loop, I can also build a second chain dedicated to the looper -- like the octave boxes, since I won't use those as much live. But I lose the kill switch, which is nice to have-- in order to erase the loop, you have to hold it down, which sends a second or so of the loop out anyway --that'll sound weird live. Still leaves open the possibility of getting an amp that will work better with the looper -- maybe one with more clean overhead. We'll see how easy/difficult it is playing with the loops -- next practice is on Friday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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