Crazy Idea

[dpm99]

Recently I saw an ad in Guitar World for an acoustic guitar with no sound hole on the sound board. It only had a player's hole (similar to the one on Daniel's black limba acoustic). I can't remember now who made it, but it got me to thinking about something. I'm really into the idea of hybrids. I play a hybrid now, and often switch back and forth between acoustic and electric tones within the same song. I like to blend them too. The problem is that most hybrids are much more effective as electric guitars than as acoustic guitars. So here's my thought.

What do you think would happen if you made an acoustic guitar (more or less) with a through neck that went no farther than the bridge pickup, leaving the actual bridge unsupported so as to catch some vibrations from the sound board, then putting a player's hole on the side. I'm thinking the neck might kill a lot of the vibration, but that it might sound better than a T5. Then again, I don't know a lot about the theory behind acoustic guitars. It seems like it would work fine as an electric. You'd probably lose some sustain you'd have on a solid body, but that would be ok.

Alternatively, consider the same idea, but the neck ends at the body and the pickups are mounted as in an archtop.

What do you think? Any opinions are appreciated.

-Dave

Edited October 1, 2008 by dpm99

[avengers63]

Dave Myka did a guitar (look for it on his site - I don't remember any details other than that) which was along these lines. IIRC, he made a thick bodied semi-acoustic that had a solid neck-through core. The twist was that the top was about 1/4" or so above the solid core. Specific bracing was needed to pull this off, but his site has tons of progress pics, so you'd be able to see what he did. I'd imagine it had plenty of acoustic sweetness with a piezo bridge and the awsome semi-acoustic electric tones.

He's pretty helpful with advice & feedback if you find it and ask him about it.

[Daniel Sorbera]

Have you heard of the Tom Anderson crowdster? It's a fully hollow acoustic guitar with a normal braced top but it's the size of an electric guitar and is only 2" thick with no sound holes at all. It sounds really really good plugged in a live setting but obviously has no acoustic unplugged sound.

If you want this instrument to have the best acoustic plugged in sound possible than it would be a good idea to model off the crowdster as much as possible.

[GoodWood]

Willie Nelson has an neat acoustic electric. I would think you may not want to scallop the braces if thats the way you do it. A great acoustic is not neccessarily a great electric,

This Goodall sounds really good, but then he plays more, and they all sound about the same. Not sure but I think its just mic-ed outside. They don't say.

[dpm99]

Thanks guys. I've long been a fan of Tom Anderson guitars, and I've become a fan of David Myka's too. I emailed him once a while back, and he's really nice. Myka has been playing around with this stuff for a while with his Dragonfly guitars. I believe his new Falcon design is supposed to be a hybrid, but I didn't notice that he'd put an acoustic pickup in the first one. His guitars are archtops. That's one way to go, but I think the Crowdster Plus is more of a true acoustic. I think the Crowdster Plus uses an archtop style construction too. The truly innovative thing about that one is that is uses bronze strings. They designed the pickup specifically for bronze strings, which really lends to the acoustic tone. This is is one hybrid guitar I've run into that really seems to work better as an acoustic than as an electric, and I think that's the reason.

I think this is an area that deserves exploration. I need to finish my first project before I get into this, but it sure would be a fun one to build

Hmm... I wonder what it would sound like if I just taped a pickup in the sound hole of my acoustic. Let the experimentation begin.

[avengers63]

Hmm... I wonder what it would sound like if I just taped a pickup in the sound hole of my acoustic.

Why not just get a soundhole pup?

Or were you meaning to put a pup from a solidbody in the soundhole... If that's the case, you'd probably have a war with the feedback. Once that got under control, it'd probably sound like a jazz guitar.

[Geo]

The problem is that most hybrids are much more effective as electric guitars than as acoustic guitars.

*Just opinion... I have not built any hybrid guitars...*

I don't think you can get around this problem. An acoustic guitar has a bridge which is free to drive the top, creating real acoustic (non-electronic) sound. A bridge that is free to drive the top is a feedback machine when amplified. I think of "amplified electric guitar" and "good acoustic sound" as being on opposite sides of a teeter-totter... you can only improve one by reducing the other.

BUT that's just from thinking about it. There are plenty of people who play amplified acoustic guitars without feedback, so maybe you could eliminate it with a notch filter or a graphic EQ tuning out the body's resonant frequency.

[MiKro]

The problem is that most hybrids are much more effective as electric guitars than as acoustic guitars.

*Just opinion... I have not built any hybrid guitars...*

I don't think you can get around this problem. An acoustic guitar has a bridge which is free to drive the top, creating real acoustic (non-electronic) sound. A bridge that is free to drive the top is a feedback machine when amplified. I think of "amplified electric guitar" and "good acoustic sound" as being on opposite sides of a teeter-totter... you can only improve one by reducing the other.

>snip<

And now you may understand my use of a reso cone for the acoustic aspect. It will give the acoustic sound without top vibration needed, as well as allow for using a fishman pickup for the cone and if you want to add a neck PUP you could do that as well since the area between the neck joint and sound hole/well is usually reinforced and in most plans will be about 3/8" thick. Another reason for my using a TOM bridge on the reso cone to allow for Bridge grounding if needed when adding PUPs.

Just my take on this and the direction I have been taking on my version of a hybrid.

MK

[dpm99]

And now you may understand my use of a reso cone for the acoustic aspect. It will give the acoustic sound without top vibration needed, as well as allow for using a fishman pickup for the cone and if you want to add a neck PUP you could do that as well since the area between the neck joint and sound hole/well is usually reinforced and in most plans will be about 3/8" thick. Another reason for my using a TOM bridge on the reso cone to allow for Bridge grounding if needed when adding PUPs.

Just my take on this and the direction I have been taking on my version of a hybrid.

MK

Waaaaaait a minute. You're talking about your resonator guitar, right? You've provided some good details on the build, but could you talk about the pickup system you installed a little more? How does it compare to say...a dreadnought or something?

Edited October 3, 2008 by dpm99

[dpm99]

You guys have got me thinking now. Look at this. It sounds like what Avengers was describing.

It's basically a guitar inside a guitar. The neck is an electric guitar housed inside an acoustic body. It would be no wider than the pickups. The problem, as stated before, is the bridge. But if I used an archtop bridge with a piezo pickup under it or somewhere else on the top, wouldn't that do the trick? With no sound hole on the top of the guitar, I'd think feedback would be negligible. Then again, I should probably be reading instead of posting.

What do you think?

[avengers63]

The picture is a little wonky, but I think you have the idea. The whole thing would be made like a semi-acoustic so the top can vibrate. The neck-through would not need to go all the way to the end of thebody, but I suppose it could. I'm thinking it should stop just after the pickups. The pups would mount directly to the wood, reducing or eliminating THEIR feedback. The top would "float" 1/4" - 1/2" above the core so it would have all of the acoustic vibrations possible. The bridge is mounted ot the top, not the solid core. A piezo or acoustic pup would then get all of the acoustic sounds.

[Geo]

The pups would mount directly to the wood, reducing or eliminating THEIR feedback.

As I understand it, pickups do not feedback unless they are microphonic. Feedback happens in the strings or in the microphonic windings of pickup coils.

The top would "float" 1/4" - 1/2" above the core so it would have all of the acoustic vibrations possible.

And thus all the normal acoustic guitar feedback would be available as well, no? If the top is going to be free, it must be braced like an acoustic.

Or:

If the top is glued to the solid core (as shown in dpm's drawing), it will not vibrate much acoustically, because it can only really flex behind the bridge, and an acoustic bridge creates torque, trying to flip the top from tailblock to headblock and vice-versa... or perhaps this is different if you use an archtop-style bridge?

[avengers63]

If the top is going to be free, it must be braced like an acoustic.

I missed putting that bit in there. I was thinking acoustic bracing.

If the top were clued to the core, that would completely defeat the purpose we're looking for.

Here's a thought - with a solid core going 3/4 of the way through the body, I bet the balance would be like poo.

[MiKro]

And now you may understand my use of a reso cone for the acoustic aspect. It will give the acoustic sound without top vibration needed, as well as allow for using a fishman pickup for the cone and if you want to add a neck PUP you could do that as well since the area between the neck joint and sound hole/well is usually reinforced and in most plans will be about 3/8" thick. Another reason for my using a TOM bridge on the reso cone to allow for Bridge grounding if needed when adding PUPs.

Just my take on this and the direction I have been taking on my version of a hybrid.

MK

Waaaaaait a minute. You're talking about your resonator guitar, right? You've provided some good details on the build, but could you talk about the pickup system you installed a little more? How does it compare to say...a dreadnought or something?

Yes my RESO!!

I have not installed anything at this point permantly. But I have tested the fishman RESO pickup and it works great. Now if I can get my nephew to help me with the future builds. The end result will be, A neck pickup ( humbucker or single coil), reso cone with fishman pickup. Cantelever neck extension, Some blending available as well as being acoustic ( as the reso cone will do this without the top being active in the system). The cone will mount from the rear (no cover as the top will provide that and the access for the cone and electronics is from the rear), using a TOM bridge and the top will be more like an Archtop. Thus the name RESOFUSION.

Got IT?

The actual name for the current reso that is inside of it (I named it for the signature and build for charity) is Revolution. ButI decided for the GOTM to go ahead with what the final should be.

MK

Edited October 4, 2008 by MiKro

[dpm99]

The picture is a little wonky, but I think you have the idea.

I thought it was pretty good, considering I was half asleep and did it in Paint.

Got IT?

Yup! I got thrown off because I'd never thought of it as a hybrid. Nonetheless, it's an awesome build, and it introduces some great ideas.

If the top is glued to the solid core (as shown in dpm's drawing), it will not vibrate much acoustically, because it can only really flex behind the bridge, and an acoustic bridge creates torque, trying to flip the top from tailblock to headblock and vice-versa... or perhaps this is different if you use an archtop-style bridge?

This is an excellent point that I've been mulling over today. I think there's a solution. I think Avengers is right in suggesting the neck go no further than the bridge pickup. Now imagine the pickups not being attached to the top at all. The neck might need a small point of connection to the back or something for stability, but what if the pickup holes were just holes, and between the pickups and the edge I put something like rubber to dampen the rattling. I realize that sounds a little "wonky," but I think it would work if I could make it look right. Then the top would be totally free. I'd have to make a decision on an archtop bridge or a regular acoustic bridge. Late last night I was picturing a Bigsby. Obviously it needs more thought. And even if all that works, there's still the matter of acoustic or electric strings.

Thanks for all the help in thinking through this.

-Dave

[MiKro]

>snip<

Got IT?

Yup! I got thrown off because I'd never thought of it as a hybrid. Nonetheless, it's an awesome build, and it introduces some great ideas.

>snip<

-Dave

Thanks Dave, you are one of the first that understands where this is going and what's in my head

Now if the "Good Lord willing" and some help, I might make it work LOL

Thanks,

Mike

[dpm99]

>snip<

Got IT?

Yup! I got thrown off because I'd never thought of it as a hybrid. Nonetheless, it's an awesome build, and it introduces some great ideas.

>snip<

-Dave

Thanks Dave, you are one of the first that understands where this is going and what's in my head

Now if the "Good Lord willing" and some help, I might make it work LOL

Thanks,

Mike

Well, when you get it done, maybe you and the good Lord will bless us with some sound clips.

Edited October 4, 2008 by dpm99

[MiKro]

>snip<

Got IT?

Yup! I got thrown off because I'd never thought of it as a hybrid. Nonetheless, it's an awesome build, and it introduces some great ideas.

>snip<

-Dave

Thanks Dave, you are one of the first that understands where this is going and what's in my head

Now if the "Good Lord willing" and some help, I might make it work LOL

Thanks,

Mike

Well, when you get it done, maybe you and the good Lord will bless us with some sound clips.

Of course if I can figure that part out LMAO!!!

MK