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Posted (edited)

I'm replacing worn out frets on an old 60's era Epiphone.

I straightened out the neck, pulled all the frets, used a radius sanding block on the fretboard, and replaced all the frets using the proper radius.

All the frets are seated nice and tight.

I have no gaps, no lifts, nothing ... everything looks perfectly level.

Do I still need to level and crown the frets?

Edited by DGW
Posted

i have to question what you doing attempting this job on a 60's epiphone if you have to ask this question.

After you have installed the frets they will need levelling 99% of the time... unless you happen to be so skilled as to install them with such even pressure that they dont.. which some people can. Personally i always give them a level anyway just to be sure

The real question is do they need levelling? only you can answer that... and i reckon when you are working on a guitar with any value you should know how to answer that

Posted (edited)
i have to question what you doing attempting this job on a 60's epiphone if you have to ask this question.

After you have installed the frets they will need levelling 99% of the time... unless you happen to be so skilled as to install them with such even pressure that they dont.. which some people can. Personally i always give them a level anyway just to be sure

The real question is do they need levelling? only you can answer that... and i reckon when you are working on a guitar with any value you should know how to answer that

Thanks for your condescending response.

If I had no "skills", the question of not having to level wouldn't have even entered my mind ... I just would have done it.

WoW! You sure have a superiority complex. :D

Edited by DGW
Posted

ah well, i thought i had toned my response down a bit, obviously not enough. maybe it was condescending but i think i make a fair point.

i suppose the point was that you need to be able to read a neck to see if it needs to be levelled.

the answers you will get will range from 'well i never levelled mine and it plays just fine' to 'of course it needs levelling, all necks need levelling after fretting'.

while you may think that comes from some sort of superiority complex i should say that i have never installed frets so perfectly that they did not need any levelling. I think westheman has talked about this with SS frets though IIRC

Posted

I almost did not respond due to the original poster's over-reaction to what I consider a fine and HONEST post by Wezv..but here goes,as my name WAS brought up..

After you have installed the frets they will need levelling 99% of the time... unless you happen to be so skilled as to install them with such even pressure that they dont.. which some people can. Personally i always give them a level anyway just to be sure

I just don't see this.I have to respectfully disagree...Most necks you buy off the market have had no leveling done...including Carvin IIRC...so Yes...it is entirely possible to do the job well enough so that the guitar will play fine with standard action right "out of the box"

If you want it to play "like butter"(which I do),you either have to do an immaculate job of fretting...or you have to do a good leveling job.

I use SS frets exclusively now(Thanks to Perry for introducing me to them),and I don'tknow if it is the SS or if it is the extra care I take because of the SS that causes me to never have to perform a fret level...I prefer to think it is the prep work I do now combined with the patience and care I take to fret properly(for me)

I prefer some things others may not...for example,I use a thinner neck,but decrease the bevel at the fret ends to give the same playing surface...it is minute,but anyway...

Now...what Wezv was saying is that he does not understand how a guy experienced enough to attempt a refret on what he considers a nice guitar(I don't consider it so) could possibly not be able to tell if he needs a fret levelling...

I agree...If you performed a fretting in which you don't need to level,then surely YOU would be able to tell?

Posted (edited)
I almost did not respond due to the original poster's over-reaction to what I consider a fine and HONEST post by Wezv..

I apologize for what what you consider "over-reacting", but WezV's comment would lead me to believe he thinks that if I have to ask the question, then I have no business attempting to refret a vintage instrument.

QUOTE by WezV:

"i have to question what you doing attempting this job on a 60's epiphone if you have to ask this question."

If it was not meant to be condescending, than I apologize.

But it certainly sounded that way to me.

And even if I didn't know what I was doing, those sort of comments really wouldn't be too encouraging.

Isn't that what this site's all about? Helping others?

If those with a little more experience can be so kind as to offer thier advice in a less condescending manner, I'm sure it would be greatly appreciated by those with less experience. B)

Having said that ...

The reason I asked this question was because the fretjob I did on this guitar didn't appear to need leveling. :D

I began by taking all the relief out of the neck until it was perfectly straight.

After removing all the frets, I sanding the fretboard using the proper radius sanding block.

There are no variances in the fretwire itself, and the only way I can see having to go through the trouble of leveling and crowning the frets were if I didn't seat them properly.

The frets were radiused prior to glueing them in and they were all seated nice and tight to the fretboard.

When I was done, I checked everything with a straight edge and couldn't find one area of the fretjob that was uneven.

My initial thought was that "leveling" them at this point would only be creating more work for myself.

I simply wanted to post this to see if anyone could offer me any other advantages that "leveling" may offer that I may have overlooked. I just wasn't expecting a response that would try to make me look like some sort of piss ant. :D

Edited by DGW
Posted
I prefer to think it is the prep work I do now combined with the patience and care I take to fret properly(for me)

Exactly ...

If you start out with a perfectly straight fretboard that's been properly radiused, and you cut the slots to the properly depth, the only way I can see it needing to be leveled is if the frets weren't radiused and/or seated properly.

It won't be comparable to a "Plek" job, but if done properly, I don't see where it would be a problem.

Now...what Wezv was saying is that he does not understand how a guy experienced enough to attempt a refret on what he considers a nice guitar(I don't consider it so) could possibly not be able to tell if he needs a fret levelling...

I agree...If you performed a fretting in which you don't need to level,then surely YOU would be able to tell?

Again, I am experienced to know it did not necessarily "need" to be leveled.

I was simply fishing for maybe other advantages in doing so that I may have overlooked.

I do have experience, but I don't do this for a living like alot of you guys. :D

Posted
I prefer to think it is the prep work I do now combined with the patience and care I take to fret properly(for me)

Exactly ...

If you start out with a perfectly straight fretboard that's been properly radiused, and you cut the slots to the properly depth, the only way I can see it needing to be leveled is if the frets weren't radiused and/or seated properly.

It won't be comparable to a "Plek" job, but if done properly, I don't see where it would be a problem.

Another beginner's point of view. I found the same thing. I was very careful building my very first neck (I am on my third now), and much to my surprise, it played like dream. I now attribute this in part to the quality of the pre-slotted pre-radiused rosewood fingerboards I have been buying. That, plus I was very careful to clean the fret slots, and to hammer and glue the frets in (after bending them first) making sure they seated perfectly. After a normal setup (relief and bridge adjustment) it had a nice low action - better than most 'shop' guitars I pick up.

My second neck was also good - except that the very highest frets would "fret out" - which triggered a discussion here about adding fall off to the high frets. I am just about to add frets to my next neck, and hope/expect it to be similarly level. Meanwhile, I have fret levelled some older worn necks successfully, so if it doesn't come out perfect, I will have no problems running a levelling file over it to correct any problems.

Posted

Cool...well,bottom line is that to react as you did says to others that you consider yourself beyond reproach...it is not conducive to finding help,really.

consider that Wez's post was 90% helpful,only 10% "condescending"....maybe your reply should have only been 10% angry? :D

Posted (edited)
I prefer to think it is the prep work I do now combined with the patience and care I take to fret properly(for me)

Exactly ...

If you start out with a perfectly straight fretboard that's been properly radiused, and you cut the slots to the properly depth, the only way I can see it needing to be leveled is if the frets weren't radiused and/or seated properly.

It won't be comparable to a "Plek" job, but if done properly, I don't see where it would be a problem.

Another beginner's point of view. I found the same thing. I was very careful building my very first neck (I am on my third now), and much to my surprise, it played like dream. I now attribute this in part to the quality of the pre-slotted pre-radiused rosewood fingerboards I have been buying. That, plus I was very careful to clean the fret slots, and to hammer and glue the frets in (after bending them first) making sure they seated perfectly. After a normal setup (relief and bridge adjustment) it had a nice low action - better than most 'shop' guitars I pick up.

My second neck was also good - except that the very highest frets would "fret out" - which triggered a discussion here about adding fall off to the high frets. I am just about to add frets to my next neck, and hope/expect it to be similarly level. Meanwhile, I have fret levelled some older worn necks successfully, so if it doesn't come out perfect, I will have no problems running a levelling file over it to correct any problems.

Sounds like you also take alot of extra care in your preperations and it has paid off ... kudos. :D

I guess I should have added that I didn't "hammer" my frets ... I used a radiused press which may have helped in the installation.

I don't think I could have hammered them in and gotten them level like you did.

Again ... kudos. :D

Edited by DGW
Posted
Cool...well,bottom line is that to react as you did says to others that you consider yourself beyond reproach...it is not conducive to finding help,really.

consider that Wez's post was 90% helpful,only 10% "condescending"....maybe your reply should have only been 10% angry? :D

I'm sorry ... In all honesty, I didn't find Wez's post even 10% helpful.

Obviously you didn't either or you wouldn't have "respectfully disagreed" with it's content. :D

Seriously ... you made your point.

Let's please move on.

Thanks.

Posted

Well...to be entirely accurate...I only "respectfully disagree" on the semantics...perfectly playable(guitar store wall quality) is different from "immaculate"..I think Wez is talking about "immaculate" fretwork...

perfectly playable can be achieved fairly easily...immaculate fretwork is a bit tougher...

But really,it is only about taking the time to do it right...if your board is radiused properly and level and all of the frets seat perfectly...then I see no reason for a leveling.

Some say you should level to take out the imperfections of the neck...I think you do that by leveling the board,not the frets.

But yes...let's move on.

Posted

If you've gone to the effort of having a really level fretboard and have seated all the frets well, then you MIGHT not need to do any fretwork....but the rest depends on the player.

The more I do this for myself and others, I've come to the conclusion that the entire setup (neck relief, fret top fallaway, etc) depends heavily on the playing style of the person who will play the instrument. If your picking style is pretty light, you can set up with an almost perfectly straight neck with no relief and no fret fallaway and get pretty low action. If you have a heavy picking style, you'll need more relief in the neck and some fallaway milled into the upper frets if you want low action without buzzing. If you're a mad downstroker - lots of relief, lots of fallaway, and fairly high action.

The only thing you could do differently on the neck is to mill the fallaway into the fretboard itself, so that you don't have to do it on the fret tops. I personally find it easier to mill the fallaway on the frets.

Posted

i guess maybe i am a little protective over older guitars, and yeah - that came over as condescending... but i do firmly believe more thought is needed before working on a vintage guitar... and thats only because i always do it before i work on one. I know some of my comments were not encouraging, they were not meant to be... i am not about to publicly encourage people to 'have a go' at refretting a vintage guitar

I dont think i ever suggested anything about your actual skill level, obviously if you think you have them perfectly level you have done a fretjob you can be proud of... on this forum, only you can be the judge of that

like i said above, i always level them to be sure... but wes is right, it is possible to do it good enough without levelling and it sounds like that may be where you are at. if in doubt string the bugger up and test it out, you could have done that in he time all this has taken. and Personally, especially with it being an old guitar with 40 year old woodwork not done by me, i would be giving it a level and i would be happy with myself when it only needed a light one

I should say i always set my guitars up so they are capable of a really low buzz free action... even if the player doesnt need that, i feel the guitar should be capable of doing it

Posted
I should say i always set my guitars up so they are capable of a really low buzz free action... even if the player doesnt need that, i feel the guitar should be capable of doing it

For sure, the instrument should be capable of low action. And Joe Satriani will love you. But if you build that same guitar for Billie Joe Armstrong, it will buzz all over hell and he'll hate it.

Now you'd think that Billie Joe could just crank up the saddles and be happy, but I'm always surprised at how many guitar players don't want to fool with the setup on their own instrument. Even one as simple as saddle height.

Posted

i didnt say i left them that way erik, just that they should be capable of it, they all get adjusted to wherever the player wants them.

If billie-joe asked me to do a guitar then it would obviously be set-up as he wanted it... that doesnt mean i would take short cuts with the fretwork.. then if he ever decided to try a lower action or sold the guitar to someone that wanted a lower action they would be fine because the fretwork would be good enough to cope with it. maybe i will have to see if he wants the LP jnr i am doing at the moment, we are using the billie-joe armstrong guitar for colour matching :D

Posted

I've done exactly two necks that didn't need any leveling, both were pressed frets into a very hard ebony board and I still hit it with some high grit sand paper and polished um up just to be on the safe side (and because I always buff them out with special metal compound, makes a big difference).

So it is possible to do a fret job that needs to leveling. But I wouldn't count on it.

Posted

Thanks for the input guys.

And again, I'm not comparing my fretwork to any sort of "PLEK" job.

I was just wondering if anyone else has gotten away with doing a fret job without having to level and crown all the frets.

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