Help On Frets And Relief Please.

[wood is good]

hello all,

i come to you today with a bit of a problem.

See, i made this Les Paul style guitar. The frets are leveled (perfectly)

the problem is that i get buzz only in the middle of the neck. well, not really middle, but from frets 5-9 on all strings. no matter how much or little relief i put into the neck, it doesnt go away. what should/could i do to get rid of this? it isnt horrible buzz, but enough to make the note unclear. please help. thanks

[Keegan]

Maybe when you leveled it the neck had some relief in it, so you were taking more off the frets near the nut and the end of the neck. Either that or your neck is backbowing, but you'd notice something like that. When you fret it at the first and last frets, is there any space between the strings and the middle frets?

Edit: Oh, and what's the action at the 12th fret like?

Edited December 8, 2008 by Keegan

[wood is good]

no, there was no relief when leveling, all the frets looked like they were leveled evenly.

there isnt space in the middle when i fret at the 24th, but there is when i fret at the first. its just that core part of the neck around frets 5-9, 5 being the worst.

i have messed with the action many times, and right now its at about the height of a quarter if that helps. i dont know the measurements of that.

[Keegan]

I meant fret both the 1st and 24th on the Low E at the same time and look for a very slight gap. You should just barely be able to slide a card underneath the 7th fret while fretting the 1st and 24th(you'll probably need someone's help to test that, unless you hold the card in your teeth or something) without it lifting the string up. You can see the gap if you look at it from the side.

The height of a quarter for the action is pretty typical, so I don't think the action is your problem.

There's a very severe problem with the neck if you have no space at all under the strings when fretting at the 1st and 24th, you either need way more relief or something is wrong with the frets. The neck should just bow slightly forward. If it already does bow forward, don't try adding more relief, you'll probably break the neck before you get a decent amount.

Edited December 8, 2008 by Keegan

[bluesy]

I meant fret both the 1st and 24th on the Low E at the same time and look for a very slight gap. You should just barely be able to slide a card underneath the 7th fret while fretting the 1st and 24th(you'll probably need someone's help to test that, unless you hold the card in your teeth or something) without it lifting the string up. You can see the gap if you look at it from the side.

What I do is hold down the 1st fret with my left hand, then reach over the guitar and put my right thumb on the 24th fret, then stretch my fingers out towards the nut, and I find I can then push the string down somewhere near the 7th fret with my middle fingertip. Pressing it down let's me more easily see how much gap there is.

[wood is good]

well, i did what you said, and adjusted the neck to where when i fret it at the first and last so there is a very slight gap in the middle. it helped, but very very slightly. it still buzzes bad on the 5th. the thing is, it diddnt used to do that. i re strung it with heavier strings, and it got really bad, so i took them off and put the same string gauge as before, only now it buzzes like that. i will level them again and see if it helps.

i dont see how everyone can say that the correct nut height is where you fret it a the third you should just barley clear the 1st fret. to me, with 6100 sized frets, that seems like a really really heigh string on the first. i usually put it to where it barley clears at the first without being fretted anywhere. i did the 3rd fret thing on this one, and the it seems almost impossible to fret the first fret its so high up.

[Mickguard]

I really think that eyeballing these measurements isn't the way to go. Maybe if you've been doing this for 20 years.

First off, when checking relief, I use a capo on the first fret -- frees up your hand to take a proper measurement. You can also use the capo to narrow down the problem area of the neck -- do you still get buzzing if the capo's at the 7th fret? 9th fret, etc?

Then I use a spark plug guage set with really fine gradations. I like the relief to be at .25 mm and at most .30 mm at the 6th or 7th fret. You might prefer more or less. But this isn't really a difference you can measure with the naked eye.

I also use the guages to measure the nut height (although this should not affect the buzzing on the 5th-9th frets, the nut height is more about the intonation at the first five frets).

Now if you put heavier strings on there and you think that caused the buzzing, then I'm wondering if there's not a different issue going on. If anything, the heavier guage would force more relief, which in turn would minimize buzzing.

Action should always be adjusted only after you've adjusted the relief of the neck then the height of the nut slots.

[westhemann]

I think your frets may not be as level as you think...unless you just tune too low for the guage of strings you use.

[erikbojerik]

I really think that eyeballing these measurements isn't the way to go. Maybe if you've been doing this for 20 years.

+1

Get yourself a feeler gauge at your local hardware store.

On the nut height - if you can "see" the gap its too much. You should be able to slide a strip of paper under there, but that's all.

The amount of relief you need will depend on how heavy you're strumming action is - the heavier, the more you'll need. If you can't get it with the truss rod, you'll have to start gradually milling down your fret tops in the middle of the neck where the strings are contacting the frets to create the buzz.

[soapbarstrat]

To me, 7th fret relief is too much if you can really see it. I listen for it, and by that I mean I fret the string at both ends of the neck , then reach to the 7th with my little finger and tap on the string. I can hear a click if there's a hair of relief.

If your strumming is so heavy to cause buzzing, I say raise the action at the bridge.

But all what I said above only works out if the frets are all on the level.

Erik, from across the room, your avatar looks like you're anti Obama.

[wood is good]

well, i tried leveling them 2 more times, and with my straight edge there is no gaps with the truss rod loose.

i guess i just dont have what it takes guys.

i am only using 9s. and i do have a hard pick attack, but even lightly it buzzes on the 5th -7th frets, especially worse on the A and D strings. o well thanks for your help guys, i think i will scrap it and sell the parts.

[westhemann]

Well...why don't you try 10s,tune them to pitch,then wait a couple of days for the neck to settle in to the new strings before you go "scrapping it"

Besides...depending on where you live,maybe somebody that lives near you could help...this is a big forum.

[ihocky2]

What type of straight edge are you using? Is it a precision straight edge or a local hardware store one.

[Ilikes2shred]

What type of straight edge are you using? Is it a precision straight edge or a local hardware store one.

You should be able to check it using a piece of glass.

[westhemann]

oh yeah,because glass is straight...

I mean,huh?

interesting fact...glass never stops flowing...so old window glass is always thicker at the bottom than the top....just thought ya'll would want to know...

Just so you know...the shortest distance between two points is a straight line...so by logic the straightest thing in existence is a really tight string...

Buy a chalkbox....pull it really really tight...pop it...THAT is straight...check your tools against that.

[soapbarstrat]

I'm assuming when you do the leveling, you're getting the neck as straight as possible with the truss-rod, while there's no strings on. Well, sometimes that works well enough. But sometimes after leveling like that, you go string it up, then some hump or rising develops around the body joint area.

[Ilikes2shred]

Oh yeah I've heard that about the glass before..... I should argue with my science teacher about that.

But pane glass is supposed to be REALLY flat.... (because gravity levels it)... or at least according to the guy at woodcraft who didn't know how to talk in sentences....

I highly doubt that anyone could grind a straight edge straighter than the surface of glass. I'm just talking out my ass though, so who knows?

A string would be straight, but there could be bends in it.... so not perfect.

The only perfectly straight thing I can think of is a laser.... If only I could use one to level frets....

Oh, wait, I forgot. Gravity bends light too..... So that brings up the question, what is straight?

EDIT: I forgot the point of all this.... It's that you need your tools to be accurate, but lets keep it sensible.

Edited December 10, 2008 by Ilikes2shred

[westhemann]

A string would be straight, but there could be bends in it.... so not perfect.

Not if it is tight....

[soapbarstrat]

First fret/board leveler I made had a glass bottom. Found the glass in my sisters garage. Didn't have a really good way to check it's flatness. It did a horrible job at leveling a board. After I bought a proper SE, I found it was wavy as gravy.

But now, I have glass that's perfectly flat, so it does exist, but you have to be able to check it or no telling what kind of glass you'll have.

[Ilikes2shred]

Ya, I'm talking poured pane glass. The guy that talked like george bush at woodcraft kept trying to assure me that it was basically the flattest thing you can get.... I guess I should be a little more sure of myself before I post.

And wes, I mean like how if you bend a string a little to much, you can't pull it straight no matter how high you tune (can be very problematic when trying to locate buzzes).

Does anyone have any idea how the people (machines) that make precision straight edges get them so straight? I though it must have something to do with a material set flat by gravity. (like pane glass)

Sry, I don't mean to highjack the thread... I should probably shut up...

[westhemann]

I measure my straightedges against my own straightness...so all my stuff is dead straight...yeah...right on.....

I am going to go eat a steak and drink warm beer now....with my hand in my pants cause of how straight I am...

[westhemann]

And wes, I mean like how if you bend a string a little to much, you can't pull it straight no matter how high you tune (can be very problematic when trying to locate buzzes).

umm....I am talking about string...not guitar strings...just string...like in a chalkbox....c'mon man...