Zep Sound...

[Mickguard]

Ah, welcome to the wonderful world of chasing your tone...you might as well buckle in, because it's a fun ride...

Now, there's nothing wrong with starting out on a Valvetronix, but it remains a small-watt solid state amp with a tiny speaker......whereas Page usually/most likely recorded with low-watt TUBE amps, which makes all the difference.

But yeah, it's surprising how lo-fi Page's sound really was -- the real secret to his sound is his technique, and his ability to find music in all kinds of weird invented chord shapes...lots of open strings too.

Anyway, I appreciate the link to the AC30 ... I have the AC15cc1, which I like a lot, though it's more limited than the AC30.

Still, I much prefer a low-watt tube amp -- you'll rarely have the occassion to push a larger amp....even a 30 watt gets way too loud too quickly. A 100 watt tube amp is overkill, unless you're playing stadiums or like a really clean sound.

I'm a big fan of the Vox sound -- I really like the way mine opens up ...takes about an hour so after it's been switched on...but then it really starts to sing.

But I'm also waiting for the delivery of a new solid-state amp (for a dual amp setup), get that late 70s, early 80s punk sound.

I used to use a Tubescreamer, they're great-sounding pedals, until mine broke. Now I'm using a Dod Punkifier...completely different pedal of course, but it fits really well with the sound I've been going for.

'Cause you know, once you have the amp, you'll start going through tons of pedals....

Edit: heh...soon after posting this, I came across a new Digitech Distortion Factory going for a great price on ebay...couldn't resist....has seven distortion emulations AND stereo outs !

[Cult Classic]

ok so im still not finding a tone i like because as per usual iv bought something and immediately afterwards found that i got the wrong thing for what i want.

this guy, "jun626" of youtube. is does a killer zep cover. hes got the tone i pretty much want. so i duly sent him a message asking what equipment he uses.

as you can see in this video he uses a telecaster and a "edwards" les paul (which i have read up about and people seem to rave about the quality, its like a real les paul, but cheap)

i got back this: "I use MG30DFX,AC100CPH and Amplitube2Live.Effects are Boss ME-50.ME-30.GE-7."

very brief. which obviously means he gets asked it a lot by noobie people like me, and cant be bothered to explain it all in detail constantly to every person that messages him.

from what iv researched, he uses a 30w marshall amp (which arent mega expensive (anything from £20 used - £100 new)), a 100w vox head (which IS expensive (about £850 new)), "Amplitube2Live" i believe is recording software, and hes listed a range of effects pedals after that.

my myself bought a 15w vox valvetronix because it seemed to have all round good reviews. but me being picky cant get a sound i like.

its probably due to the fact i have cheap guitars, and when i have the money i really fancy one of those "edwards" things. but they seem hard to come by.

now iv lectured on, what im asking is, is there anything (effects pedal ect) that i can use with the valvetronix to create a tone thats similar to what i posted. or am i barking up the wrong tree here and are simply going to have to save for a million years to buy all the special stuff.

thanks for looking.

Jono.

[Dudz]

Just go into a music store an tell them you want to try the distortion pedals. Talk to them and listen to what they have to say. Play all of them that have even the most remote chance of getting the sound you want and decide what you want. I'm tellin you though you will be able to find the sound at least close to what you want out of that little vox. I did pretty good back when I had a 10 watt solid state vox (not a valvetronix) so with yours and whatever guitar you have I bet you can find it. Even my old little solid state 10 watt ibanez amp I still have from when I started can cough out some pretty good AC/DC. What exactly is your guitar? What specific song are you trying to get the sound of?

[Cult Classic]

my guitar at the moment is a 60s thing: "audition surf special". its cheapo but praised for being playable. i also have a cheap les paul replica, which i bought because i thought it couldnt be a lot worse than my audition. but it was and doesnt actually sound as good.

if i got this sound coming out of my amp.. i would literally melt.

[Cult Classic]

ok i just found out i may have the wrong tube in my amp. the valvetronix has an EL84 and apparenly for that 70s sound i may need an EL34 for the output valve.

i was going to edit this in and have it in a bit more detail, but due to the project guitar forums deciding to constantly fail on me, saying the connection failed or some crap. i couldnt.

[Thoughtless 7]

You can't swap an EL84 with an EL34. Their sockets don't match. Though, the EL84 is just the little brother to the EL34.

[borge]

Your vox has no poweramp valve.....its a SS practice amp....... I'd also hazard a guess it has no arbitrary preamp valve they sometimes put in SS amps, that'll be reserved for the bigger/higher end valvetronix.

There is no '70's sound' poweramp valve, many many amps were made in the 70's with many different valves.....

I guess the traditional 'el34 sounds' is the plexi/jcm tones we've all heard on 9/10 rock records ever made, The trad. el84 being Vox tones often associated with the Beatles/Byrds 'jangle' the Edge or Brian May, of course Jimmy used both....

What's so special about that clip anyway? its standard LP>Marshall crunch.....any modelling amp will do that..... I think you either need to go to a music shop and try some other amps or have an experienced guitarist show you what your amp can do.

[Cult Classic]

i guess i better start saving

[Cult Classic]

GENIOUS MOMENT!.

okay, i was listening to zep 1, and was thinking "didnt page use some illusive amp on this?" then i realised that yes he did.. it being a supro one.

iv been looking it up, and have found this

Jimmy Page's Supro - The Zeppelin I wonder-amp:

It is usually said that Page used the Supro model 1624TN model, because that is the only "12 model of that era of Supro amplifiers. However, for starters, I have played these amps, which utilize 6973 output tubes and my ear told me years ago that this model is not Page’s tone - too bright and too gritty - very akin to how el84 tubes color tone. The reason that the Supro 1624TN model has led many down the wrong path is because everyone has only had Page’s words to go on, as he had consistently stated in interviews it was “a little Supro amp” with a 12” speaker. This is where the confusion stems from. But, that's not were the absolute proof is of course - that is soon to follow here. It's based on the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame showcase of the Led Zeppelin I Supro.

As displayed at the museum, Page used a different model Supro - one with an aftermarket 12" installed on a custom baffle-board. The cabinet style is specific to the dual-6L6 Supros - model years '58 and '59. This era Supro is built with the narrow top panel, as opposed to the wide panel seen on the high-end models of '60 - '62. The control panel type on this amp was available on only two amp models: the 1624TN and the 1690TN. Yet, one can readily deduce Page’s actual amp model with the facts presented here: The dimensions are approximately 21.5" x 18" - the very dimensions of the 1690TN Coronado. I have done some scale conversions with a "12 speaker as reference, and this indicated that Page's amp absolutely had a retrofit 12" speaker and CUSTOM baffle-board installed, as the stock speaker configuration is 2x10”. It's also worth noting that the picture-taker of Page's Supro personally witnessed the dual-6L6 tube configuration in back of the amp.

Additionally, to me Zeppelin I does indeed sounds like a 6L6 tube type amp, however there is a little more edge than the standard Supro 6L6 tone. This added "edge" is likely due to the fact that he replaced the stock 2x10" configuration with that single 12", so that single speaker is really being pummeled. And, I believe that therein lies some of the magic that can bring "Communication Breakdown" and "Good Times Bad Times" (a key aside is almost all of the other distortion on Zeppelin I is “Tonebender” fuzz overdrive). That is about 24 watts of power hitting what is probably a 15 watt speaker. Lastly, in support of this speaker change, is the fact that the baffle-board and grill cloth pictured are not original spec. All of this information adds up to the Page Supro having to be the 1690TN "Coronado" with a custom baffle-board and 12" speaker installed.

I speculate this is why Page has usually been quite open about admitting his Supro had a 12" speaker in interviews – it’s likely that his knowing that his Supro was customized meant that any search for his sacred amp and tone would be fruitless. This is a key consideration, for Page has always striven to obscure the technical aspects of his tone and maintained an element of mystery (as he rightly should IMO) by often stating conflicting information in interviews, claiming to have forgotten, or giving vague answers in the past. Of course, you won't necessarily sound exactly like Page with this amp. Page's hands and genius are 90% of that tonal equation. But, it's a great starting point...

@ Michael Duddles

do these supro amps pop up on the internet at all? or are they all rare as hens teeth, in which case i was hoping i could replicate one by building it.

with the right info on spec ect.

thanks.

Jono.

Edit

ok i just looked on ebay and they are all STUPID money, theres none in britain, and they arent the kind im on about.

anyone got specs?

Edited February 17, 2009 by Cult Classic

[westhemann]

Seriously dude...you are being a bit ridiculous about this...you can get that Zeppelin tone from any number of amps...the most readily available is a Marshal plexi...but you can dial it in on alot of amps,including the one you have,

[Cult Classic]

ok so maybe i am, but im just trying to play it safe, by looking for the stuff they once used. i havnt got the money to be pissing about buying everything thats wrong, and i cant afford a marshall for that "marshall crunch" sound.

[borge]

well I'm sure a vintage supro would cost many many times as much as your average marshall......simply because there are people like you (pointlessly IMO) chasing 'his magical tone'.

"Page's hands and genius are 90% of that tonal equation"

page will sound like page on ALL amps because he's page.....

[Cult Classic]

well yes i understand that. im not looking to sound exactly like him. im just after his guitar tone.

thanks so far.

[Cult Classic]

i might be in luck. i'v been fiddling. i think a fuzztone pedal could be in order, if they still exist. i seem to have got a pretty retro sound, its just a bit heavy on the gain. its hard to explain, but the gain doesnt seem to fit, so at the moment its very acousticy.

[psw]

A decent LZ sound is in your amp!

Any of the old classic amps...especially things like the old supro...are incredibly expensive, and rare. There are infused with mojo, but are not as great of magic as you may think...extremely primitive by any standard.

I am told the fender wide range humbucking seth lover pickup in mint condition...as in my telecaster...could fetch $800 or more on ebay...for a single pickup!!!! It is so big, it wont even fit into any standard guitar without modifications. Sure, it is kind of unique in sound...but not that great (think 70's stones like clang). You couldn't give them away in the 70's...seriously, I am old enough to know!!!

Your guitars though may not be doing you many favours. But...LZ especially is about this weird sloppy feel...I blame the drugs...maybe if you took the right drugs you could get that feel...or maybe not, you might only think you sound like page!

Modeling amps never sound quite right though...but they do a very decent imitation and the versatility is there. Generally, and I may have mentioned it before...you need to really get into the programs and save your own presets. Starting with something a bit like it (say plexi) and stripping away the over hyped effects and cabinets and stuff can be good. Use your ears, not the labels anyway.

Be aware that all the manufacturers over hype their amps and effects to impress the buyer, no the user.

A classic example is my fender hot rod amp...the volume goes to 12 (one better than 11 in a blatant spinal tap like coup)...however they used linear pots purposely (instead of an audio taper) so that almost all the gain is between 0 and 2. So...you go to a shop, you turn it on to two and it blows your head off!!! It's even hard to turn down (it's only rated 40 watts) as there is a big difference between 1/2 and 1 and 1 and two. You think...my god, if that's how loud it is at 2...imagine when I take it home and turn it up to 12!!! But NO...there is almost no gain increase above 3...got ya! Still...plenty loud enough, but deceiving and done on purpose...and makes it very hard. The way it is constructed, changing the pots is not easy.

The same with models and effects...way over blown...all those swirly sounds and jet flangers...all very impressive, but ultimately not that useful. Some of the things that seriously effect the sound are very subtle. Things like compression, and often the noise reduction even, are "transparent" to new ears...but too much completely screws up the dynamics and may be masking noise when you aren't playing...but under your sound may well be a wall of white noise in the distortion.

The trick then, is to try and strip this back to a decent sound with just a touch of spice or effect. In my case, I love a bit off subtle echo, I use it like reverb but for me it is less mushy. However, it has to be pretty subtle and mixed low...mine is about 300ms of analog delay.

Distortions I am not so much an expert on. I have a lot of classic effects...the tone bender pedals were very simple dual transistor jobs...not that hard to make. However, the classic "heart full of soul" fuzz sound (tonebender) isn't everyone's cup of tea. Behringher make some very cheap clones and the old ibanez and boss classics can do a great job. Certainly...analog stomps will be better than any digital distortion, there is just no competition. Getting a good distortion (or overdrive more likely) is likely to improve things a lot for "that sound" if a crunchy sound is what you are after.

As above though...if adding an effect like this, especially distortion...you will need to strip out the digital fakes...that means the amp models. So, you will likely get a far better crunch from an analog stomp into a clean fender model than into the digital marshal imitation if using a stomp box.

Anyway...persevere and don't get caught up in the equipment envy...the vox is pretty decent...better than the noisy home made job my brother and me made with car speakers for my first year or two!

pete

[Cult Classic]

that was a very good explanation. thankyou. you are very right on that matter, the effects are overdone if im honest, as you said.

you can get some really good 80s sounds out of the VT, but im after a sort of clean folky overdrive kind of sound. its VERY hard to explain. only a few people probably know what im on about. if you listen to "good times bad times" you will hear that at the beginning, there is a very powerful rocky overdriven sound, but all the overdrive i get is too gritty and powerful. im looking for something you can notice, but isnt in your face.

i do like lots of different kinds of music, anything from disturbed, to sum41, to blink-182. but when it comes to playing there is only one tone that will do it for me. and its that magical zep tone.

sorry if i've wound anybody up so far, i really dont know what im doing. theres so much to learn.

[westhemann]

I have a fender twin reverb II I recently retubed to be cleaner...great amp...but before I retubed it I could get a decent Zep tone even out of it..

Marshall plexi is great...I once heard a guy playing punk through a jcm 900 and he was getting a very good "zep" tone from that,though he probably thought it was a punk tone...

[Cult Classic]

if i could afford a marshall plexi, i would have one. i got offered one for dirt cheap money but my mum couldnt "justify" paying that much for an amp as a christmas present, and i didnt have the money, so i had to let it go. (she hasnt looked at the real prices has she!).

i have considered changing the speaker, because iv heard that it can change the sound, but i dont wanna ruin it. and that can wait anyway.

[Cult Classic]

to be honest. i think im going to go all jimmy page and just play about. i may not have much money but ill do it over time.

this has been a help. and i thank you all for helping.

so for now im fine, im just going to mod my guitars and im hoping to build one when i can afford a slab of wood big enough.

thanks all

Jono.

[RDub]

Actually, the Valvetronix does have a tube even though it's a solid state modeling amp, it uses a 12AX7 in the power amp section. Vox claims it gives it a tube amp sound and feel. I too, ha

[RDub]

Actually, the Valvetronix does have a tube even though it's a solid state modeling amp, it uses a 12AX7(not an EL 34) in the power amp section. Vox claims it gives it a tube amp sound and feel. The manual actually explains that you should max the MASTER volume, and control volume with the VOLUME knob. That drives that little tube. With the master down, you're not really driving it. I too, have the 15 watt version. OK sounding amp, but not quite the tube warmth I'm looking for. I've found I can get close to alot of tones with it, but not all the way there. Here's a cool website I found where people share their settings

www.valvetronix.net

Hope it helps