Guitarnut - Prs Custom 22

[guitarnut]

Still lots of work to do on the body but it's shaping up.

Peace,

Mark

[ArMelvin1]

ok so i don't want to hijack your thread but i have really been wondering about the stacked heel i see here and on crows builds. I didn't believe it at first but is that really a viable option because i have three mahogany boards i thought i would only be able to make a laminated neck out of. Anyways if some one could tell me yay or nay I'd appreciate it. The boards I have are one inch thick or so, so stacked it would make a two inch heel. Also i was wondering if that's glued with titebond or similar or epoxy? Again sorry to interrupt I love the build by the way so clean you make it look easy.

[MuffinPunch]

ok so i don't want to hijack your thread but i have really been wondering about the stacked heel i see here and on crows builds. I didn't believe it at first but is that really a viable option because i have three mahogany boards i thought i would only be able to make a laminated neck out of. Anyways if some one could tell me yay or nay I'd appreciate it. The boards I have are one inch thick or so, so stacked it would make a two inch heel. Also i was wondering if that's glued with titebond or similar or epoxy? Again sorry to interrupt I love the build by the way so clean you make it look easy.

I gotta be honest. I was wondering that myself. It seems to me that stacking the heel like that would result in the same kind of joint you would get if you just glued the neck straight to the body without routing, albeit with a sightly longer join area on the body. Just the way my inner logic works I guess. Im sure im wrong as it seems youve done this before, as has Crow, and you both make beautiful instruments.

[guitarnut]

I took another look at the neck angle situation. First. I wanted to get an idea of how the neck is set. I found a few detail shots that shed some light on this.

I can see from these that the thickness of the top, at the neck pocket, varies a bit from model to model. The thickness here would indicate the steepness of the angle...more top remaining, lesser angle. Less top thickness remaining, steeper angle.

[guitarnut]

So, to determine the angle I want, I started by measuring the distance from where I assume the top starts to roll off. I assume this is just in front of the bridge since I wouldn't want the bridge posts in at an angle but perpendiculat to the top. I made a mark at the bridge side of the nridge PU route and measured out to the farthest point. Almost 7".

Then on a piece of scrap, I set a 4.5 degree angle and drew it out to 7". This tells me the amount of top that would be removed at the end of the pocket so the carve matches the neck angle. Or more importantly, the amount that will remain.

I transferred this mark to the top.

Following this mark down to a minimum 1/4" faux binding for the rest of the guitar gives me a visual reference to see if the angle is in line with what PRS is doing. To me, 4.5 degrees seems a bit steep. Maybe more in the 3 degree mark that ehawley provided. Thanks again Ed!

I'll map that out and see where it lands. Since PRS puts the angle on the neck heel and not the pocket, I'm in good shape to move forward.

Peace,

Mark

[guitarnut]

Well, I'm getting more info on the carve. I have decided to go with a 3 degree neck angle which means I need a matching surface on the top. As I see PRS tops, there is an "alley" that runs, at the neck angle, from just in front of the bridge to the neck pocket. This places the PUs and fretboard in the same plane.

So, my thinking is this...

By using a router sled, with the body 3 degrees to the table, I can shave the top down at a 3 degree angle along this area. The carve is less severe as it moves to the neck so removing this material across the full width of the body should be fine.

I started by setting up the Shopsmith with the extra table and trunion on it and laying a piece of OSB down as a base. I cut 2 pieces of hard maple scrap into rails and attached some 1" PVC pipe. I ran the rails thru the planer together to make sure they are exactly the same thickness before attaching the pipe.

I then made a sled out of scrap mahogany and ash. Then leveled everything left to right and front to back.

Initially, I thought I had the setup I wanted. But as I adjusted cut angle by sliding a shim under the body, I could get the depth of cut I wanted at the pocket but I would have been cutting way too far up the body to get to a zero pass.

Then it occured to me that my pivot point was the end of the body. It needed to be at my zero cut line (shown in red). I moved the shim to that point which elevated the end of the body off the base allowing it to pivot at the new location. The 2 MDF blocks that are screwed down at the body horns are able to pivot on their screws allowing me to tweak the angle.

Much better control now.

The zero cut line is just to the right of the bit...during the first pass, the left side of the bit would travel along this line.

Now I just need the courage to fire it up and start cutting.

Mark

[guitarnut]

Well, not being the patient type and having only limited time to work on guitars, I pushed forward. I thought it through, checked a double checked and made the first cut. Works just like I planned.

Some progress shots.

When I got to this point...just past the end of the pocket, I pulled the pivot point and shimmed the body flat. I finished the cutting like this. Had I continued on at an angle, I would have nothing to carve out on the horns. The cut would have been down to the binding height.

You can see in this pic how it levels off, leaving enough to carve down to the binding level. The binding might be just under 1/4" but that's better than having no detail in the carve on top.

[guitarnut]

Looks good to me. I'll need to bring the neck tenon down in thickness and cut it the carve angle before I can see the finished result.

More soon.

[guitarnut]

Having figured out the top carve situation, I needed to put the same angle on the neck heel. I used the same router sled setup that I used for the top.

This was a bit tricky because I had already radiused the fretboard...had I known I would have left it flat for sure.

I drilled small holes in 2 of the tuner locations and a deep countersink...far below where the router bit would travel...in the tenon. This not onlt allowed me to plant it firmly on the table but I used the 2 screws in the headstock to level the neck side to side. Crude, but it worked.

I ended up going with a 4 degree angle since my top came out a bit steeper than the 3 degrees I was shooting for...turns out to be closer to the angle PRS uses on the 22s and 24s.

I measured the distance from the end of the tenon to the nut end of the fretbaord...20.125". I then ran that 4 degess angle out to this distance on a piece of scrap and that gave me my elevation for the headstock end of the neck.

Befoe locking in the angle, I ran a test/cleanup pass.

Then I set the angle and adjusted the router so it was just breathing on the end of the tenon. You can see in this pic the result of the first pass. It caught most of the heel but missed the area to the left at the end of the tenon.

The next pass was set for final depth and here is the result. Me likey...

[guitarnut]

It sits in the pocket nicely...still a bit sloppy because I need to reshape the end of the tenon for the angle. It's still just a bit high but I'll block it down like they do at PRS...on a large flat block with 120 grit on it. I can really dial it in that way and mahogany is so easy to sand, it won't take long.

Peace,

Mark

[MuffinPunch]

Very inventive work.

Glad you decided to go with the neck angle after all. I tend to appreciate it more when "copy" builds are actually built the same way or similar to the originals rather than simply being "look-a-likes". Looking really good.

Quick question tho, why faux binding? Ive seen your binding work before and it seems like you could have achieved a professional looking bind very easily on this build, in which case you would not have had to worry about compromising the carve by angling the top. Wont you still have to rout a channel around the body to set the carve depth anyway? If so, I wonder if it would have been easier if you did that before angling the top. Tho I suppose you could accomplish that just fine using that handy router sled if need be. I honestly dont know, but these are all questions I would be asking myself were I doing this build, and as I have plans to build an LP in the distant future, I see many of these same questions arising.

Edited April 26, 2010 by MuffinPunch

[WezV]

hold on a sec muffin, lets see if i got this right. you said:

I tend to appreciate it more when "copy" builds are actually built the same way or similar to the originals

before asking

why faux binding?

i would think the answer is obvious - because most PRSi have faux binding

although they have started binding their necks on some models this year, which seems very anti-PRS to me

[MuffinPunch]

hold on a sec muffin, lets see if i got this right. you said:

I tend to appreciate it more when "copy" builds are actually built the same way or similar to the originals

before asking

why faux binding?

i would think the answer is obvious - because most PRSi have faux binding

although they have started binding their necks on some models this year, which seems very anti-PRS to me

Fair enough. I guess I need to school myself a little better on a subject before making such an inquiry. In reality tho, the question was more geared towards Mark due to his previous work and in an attempt to present an alternative way to accomplish a goal given the new circumstances. I admit im no PRS expert, but the addition of a flamed maple binding would both look fairly authentic and could potentially present a thicker surface for carving the top. This is all subjective obviously, and completely my own opinion. I promise I will not be offended in any way should you chose not to head my uneducated suggestion. Im basically just thinking out load here. Im loving this build obviously or I wouldn't be so involved.

[WezV]

many ways to flay a feline

i agree though, if he is worried about getting the carve depth then flamed maple binding would be a good way to achieve it and the finished look would be basically the same. PRS dont do it that way and i assume thats because of the difficulties in consistently bending flamed maple around sharp curves, but its a perfectly viable way of doing these things

[guitarnut]

Very inventive work.

Glad you decided to go with the neck angle after all. I tend to appreciate it more when "copy" builds are actually built the same way or similar to the originals rather than simply being "look-a-likes". Looking really good.

Quick question tho, why faux binding? Ive seen your binding work before and it seems like you could have achieved a professional looking bind very easily on this build, in which case you would not have had to worry about compromising the carve by angling the top. Wont you still have to rout a channel around the body to set the carve depth anyway? If so, I wonder if it would have been easier if you did that before angling the top. Tho I suppose you could accomplish that just fine using that handy router sled if need be. I honestly dont know, but these are all questions I would be asking myself were I doing this build, and as I have plans to build an LP in the distant future, I see many of these same questions arising.

Hi Steve. thanks for the comments.

I have no issues with doing an actual binding, but the faux binding is standard on most PRS models. As for cutting a channel at this stage, it's not too tough. I use a jig that holds the router above the body and it remains at a constant height as the body is passed by a bearing guided bit. StewMac sells a version called TrueChannel for...$295.00. Mine is a take off on the SawDust Generator...about $5 worth of scrap oak. This jig would work great on a Les Paul build.

These pics are of the pre-carve process but it could easily do a binding channel as well.

How and when the various channels are cut is a matter of what works best for each builder. I prefer to cut the landing pass for the carve, then cut a binding channel if one is needed. The bit I use has a cutter on top and bottom but I don't like burying the bit...tearout is a big enough risk without making it worse. Plus I can set a more accurate channel height at that point.

Peace,

Mark

[guitarnut]

These are being posted out of sequence in the build but I wanted to include them. I got so absorbed in the body/neck join that I overlooked posting some neck work.

Nothing new here but important to the build none the less.

I have all my supplies laid out for the dot markers. I hand drill the holes because I feel like I have better control than with a drill or drill press. I can cut them by hand with a brad point bit in just a few minutes.

I save some of the shavings as I go in case I get one too deep. I just toss in a couple of shavings and the Weldon cement glues them in place when the dot is placed.

I've found that a 1.25" ring shank nail is very handy during this process. It fits perfectly down the opening of the glue tube...this stuff dries FAST and it needs to be cleared regularly. The head of the nail also fits the dots and can be used to press them in place. It helps tuck shaving into the holes too when needed.

All the dots glued in place.

Some light clamping pressure makes sure they stay put...hydraulic pressure for the glue can cause them to rise up...though the cement sets so quickly, it's not likely but I clamp just in case.

Here I've started the radius. You can see I have a stubborn low spot around the upper frets. Not a big deal as I like a bit of roll-off at the higher frets anyway.

All done, sanded to 320, the edges eased a bit. I would have fretted it right away, but at this point I still had to deal with the heel angle.

[guitarnut]

I started on the carve this week. I set up the SDG to cut the landing level for th carve.

Since part of the top os no longer flat, I set the bit to the lowest point perpendicular to the end of the neck pocket. This is the minimum or actually zero cut.

On the end of the body where it hasen't been thinned out, this is the maximum cut. The distance between the body and the tongue of the SDG is the width of the cut.

Here's the first pass...half depth.

...and the second pass...the same width but taken to full depth.

[guitarnut]

Set up for the second level.

After cutting the second level which is was taken almost to the upper and lower waists. And the third level which was run from the zero cut line from the milling step , top to bottom.

After working the edges down, I started working from the middle layout line outward to the edges...in sort of a "sun ray" pattern.

I worked this pattern from one end of the level 2 cut to the other.

After a quick pass with a scraper to check the blend.

[guitarnut]

After doing a quick layout and marking the PU routes, I started working on the horns.

The carve on the end of the body is sort of bell shaped...lofting from flat to the landing level in a genle arch. The crve on the upper horn transitions to a convex shape that starts at the layout line ans scoops down to the landing level. The area just to the right of the plane in this pic, averages the 2 for a smooth transition.

Then I started the carve back toward the neck pocket.

[guitarnut]

The carve on the lower horn is similar but happens a shorter area so it's roll off to the binding level appears to be steeper....more compact.

Then I worked on the scooped out area. This is one of my least favorite details of the carve...looks like they just couldn't come up with anything else to do here. But, in keeping wirh the design...

The roughed in carve...

After a little time with a scraper and 120 grit.

More soon...

[guitarnut]

More pics. I'll fill in the details later...though most of it's obvious in the pics. :wink:

[guitarnut]

[Prostheta]

That picture made my day. We all have way too many socket set pieces hanging around, after all ;-)

[Muzz]

Yep, great tip with the socket, I am adding that to my list.

[guitarnut]

With the carve roughed in and most of the machining done, I want to get the neck ready to glue in.

Frets first. Nothing new here but I did want to show some pics of how I do this. There is a recent thread on another forum of a first time neck build and while the work is very clean and the poster is doing an excellent job, I noticed he used ALOT of fret wire. And I see it quite often...lots of wire getting clipped away. There's really no reason for it...other than fear maybe. :eek:

Since most of us over-radius the wire anyway, keep in mind that even if you cut the wire to the exact width of the fretboard, there's already more wire there than you need for the fret.

I cut mine this way...just the width of the board at each position.

When it's set into the slot, it should just reach the edges.

When it's tapped into place, thers's just enough to start the dressing stage with a clean snip.

If it comes up short on one side, just tap it thru the slot to even it out.