Blackdog Posted July 30, 2010 Report Posted July 30, 2010 So I'm building another Korina Singlecut, this time for myself, because I liked how it sounded and played very much. But I was thinking about maybe adding a small twist without changing the design or the configuration much: I'm thinking about giving a fanned-fret/multi-scale version a try. It seems that if I keep my scales reasonably close I could get away using the same hardware configuration: Tone-Pros wraparound or TOM/stop tailpiece combo. For my first attempt at playing a fanned-fret guitar I would prefer something not too extreme anyway... So for the following drawings I used 25"/24.5" scales with the 7th fret perpendicular. It seems that the intonation range of the saddles in said bridges could handle the difference. I could even move the perp further up (to the 9th fret?) and it would have a bit more margin. I can see that adjusting the intonation alters the string geometry because of the slant of the bridge (it always happens with a TOM, but it's more pronounced here), but slotting the saddles when they are close to the right intonation might keep the issue under control... Anyway, what do you think ?? Will it work or should I save the multi-scale idea for a design with individual-string bridge ?? Quote
WezV Posted July 30, 2010 Report Posted July 30, 2010 for this i would go higher for the perp i have seen one done with the bridge as the perp and it all fans back from that. i think that is a mistake with a big difference in scales but could work for you with this - but i am tempted to say between 12th and 17th might fall nicely Quote
Blackdog Posted July 30, 2010 Author Report Posted July 30, 2010 for this i would go higher for the perp i have seen one done with the bridge as the perp and it all fans back from that. i think that is a mistake with a big difference in scales but could work for you with this - but i am tempted to say between 12th and 17th might fall nicely Thanks for the reply Wez, I tend to agree... I adjusted (corrected the bridge position and slant) the drawings a bit and this is a comparison of the wraparound version with the perp at 7: And at 9: This last version already looks promising IMO... I will try later with the perp at 12 and see what it looks like... Quote
DC Ross Posted July 30, 2010 Report Posted July 30, 2010 With the bridge angled that radically, the string spacing at the bridge will be less than advertised, and will change slightly when adjusting for intonation. Maybe not a huge deal, but something to keep in mind. Quote
Blackdog Posted July 30, 2010 Author Report Posted July 30, 2010 With the bridge angled that radically, the string spacing at the bridge will be less than advertised, and will change slightly when adjusting for intonation. Maybe not a huge deal, but something to keep in mind. Since the saddles are not slotted yet, string spacing is not really an issue with the TOM. The wraparound will have to be slotted cleverly too to maintain the proper string spread. Like I said in the first post I think that slotting the saddles while they are at the approximate intonation point will minimize the problem with the adjustment. It's all trade-offs, but in principle it looks like it may work... Here are the same two designs with the perp at the 12th fret: It's starting to slant a bit too much at the nut, I think... Quote
WezV Posted July 30, 2010 Report Posted July 30, 2010 i dont think that would be a problem slant at the nut - still within the realms of possibly more comfortable than a normal nut my 25-26.5" has a nut with more angle than that and is still my favorite guitar. i think you need to think of a G and B chord and how possible that is.... quite likely still more so than a normal guitar you are losing the playability advantages of mutliscale at the top end - but you are still getting the tonal advantages of longer strings without any playability loss over a normal guitar Quote
Blackdog Posted August 3, 2010 Author Report Posted August 3, 2010 i dont think that would be a problem slant at the nut - still within the realms of possibly more comfortable than a normal nut my 25-26.5" has a nut with more angle than that and is still my favorite guitar. i think you need to think of a G and B chord and how possible that is.... quite likely still more so than a normal guitar you are losing the playability advantages of mutliscale at the top end - but you are still getting the tonal advantages of longer strings without any playability loss over a normal guitar Thanks again, Wez. You really make a couple of interesting points. I was thinking so far in terms of how much more UNcomfortable (or cumbersome) would it be to play such a fanned fret guitar. In my rather conservative mindset I was never considering the possibility of it being MORE comfortable. At least to my playing style. When you suggested to think of a G and B chords you lost me a bit. If I think of an open G chord, it actually may seem that the slanted frets would be more natural for the hand position. But if I think of a barre B major (or any barre chord in the first couple of frets), my index finger tends to curl in exactly the opposite direction: that doesn't look more comfortable. What were you meaning, can you please elaborate on this ?? You also mention my loss of playability advantages at the upper frets (I presume because I have the perp that far up), what are those advantages you're referring to ?? I'm still on the fence about this change in the project, I see too many compromises, so I may save the complete fan-fret thing for the next project after these two. So I can really design the guitar around the fanned-frets and not the other way around... Still, your valuable contributions to my education in this matter are greatly appreciated. Quote
WezV Posted August 3, 2010 Report Posted August 3, 2010 with the chords - i meant B7 and open G, not sure why i chose them. with the bridge as the perp and a couple of inches difference in scales these become practically unplayable. that would be too much slant at the nut. But you dont have too much slant on either of yours. I always find a chord like B7 really cramped on a normal guitar, but the slight slant in those first positions actually helps to give a little more room for them. On mine i find Barre chords just as easy for the lower half and much easier past that. your finger does curl the opposite direction as you say but it would not be a problem on any of the designs you have posted. So upper fret playability advantages - as mentioned above barre chords get easier at the higher end as the slant can provide a more natural hand position and you can do higher barres than normal because you are coming in at them from an angle so the guitar body wont be in your way. Also when doing lead work up there a lot of players tend to angle there hand for better access. If the angle of the frets matches the angle of the hand a bit better then its easier to reach those high notes on the low strings and its much easier to get some massive bends out of it. You wont get these if you dont have the upper frets slanted - but are you after improved upper fret access? If not dont worry about it as its certainly not bad on teh designs as it is So yeah - once used to it, it will feel very natural. playability is not hampered by fanned frets unless you go for extremes Quote
DeafElectrician Posted September 5, 2010 Report Posted September 5, 2010 i have a question of my own, i have been searching everywhere for an answer as to why perpendicular fret placement is a factor. what difference does it actually make? is it just preference? if i just figured out the fret placement for say "Scale Length A" and drew a straight line to the corresponding "Scale Length B" fret placements, wouldn there be a definite perp fret already? thanks for any help guys. Quote
WezV Posted September 5, 2010 Report Posted September 5, 2010 you can ofset the two scales lengths however you want. it doesnt have to be on a fret line ('the perp') but its easier to think about it that way the ofset between the two scales will greatly affect the fan and therefore playability. for a predominantly lead instrument i put the perp around 12th fret but for a good all rounder i want it between 3rd & 9th... more towards 3rd for less angled frets near the nut. but this is a decsion that also depends on the difference between the scale lengths draw out a few different fretboards and you will spot the difference it can make straight away Quote
Prostheta Posted September 6, 2010 Report Posted September 6, 2010 (edited) Sorry, just skim-read this thread so I may be repeating what has been said or working on OOD information as I'm just running out of the door: When adjusting for intonation in an overly-slanted TOM, you are also drawing the strings across at a noticeable angle to the string run, changing string spacing marginally. This and the margin change in scale length by drawing the string across the fanned frets will make intonation more difficult and perhaps impossible given the limited range of movement in the bridge. The step "back" in the intonation of the strings on the lower half of the fretboard will cause a wider gap between your 3rd and 4th strings (on a six-string) as the forward offset of the 4th will compound the reverse offset of the 3rd string. Specifying uncut saddles in the TOM will allow you to cut angled slots and perhaps space the strings evenly. I may be completely wrong as I have not tried this in practice, but the geometry of the configuration is far more difficult to achieve in practice than saddles mounted parallel to the proposed string runs such as this: Edited September 6, 2010 by Prostheta Quote
DeafElectrician Posted September 6, 2010 Report Posted September 6, 2010 you can ofset the two scales lengths however you want. it doesnt have to be on a fret line ('the perp') but its easier to think about it that way the ofset between the two scales will greatly affect the fan and therefore playability. for a predominantly lead instrument i put the perp around 12th fret but for a good all rounder i want it between 3rd & 9th... more towards 3rd for less angled frets near the nut. but this is a decsion that also depends on the difference between the scale lengths draw out a few different fretboards and you will spot the difference it can make straight away So it is basically just preference? Quote
Bionic Dave Posted September 6, 2010 Report Posted September 6, 2010 I have built many Multi Scale guitars and in my opinion and every one that has played them the Perp is best set at the 5th fret. I've built at the 12th the 7th the 4th and the 9th as well. 5th is the best for over all playability. But in the case of a tom or lp bridge your going to have to move the perp down as far as the 12th or more to get a good string spacing on the bridge. DC Ross is right. even if the saddles aren't notched yet. the string will want to pull out of the saddle notch if it is on to much of an angle to the bridge. The notch's will have to be deep to prevent this and there for will cause tuning and intonation issues on the low E to D strings. Dave Quote
WezV Posted September 6, 2010 Report Posted September 6, 2010 you can ofset the two scales lengths however you want. it doesnt have to be on a fret line ('the perp') but its easier to think about it that way the ofset between the two scales will greatly affect the fan and therefore playability. for a predominantly lead instrument i put the perp around 12th fret but for a good all rounder i want it between 3rd & 9th... more towards 3rd for less angled frets near the nut. but this is a decsion that also depends on the difference between the scale lengths draw out a few different fretboards and you will spot the difference it can make straight away So it is basically just preference? thats what 'however you want' means to me, but it needs to be within the realms of sensible... and people who have built them have given sensible suggestions here. i have so far gone with 3.5th ish, 5th and 9th all worked well. All were 6 strings with less than 1.5" difference in scale length, which are the other 2 factors you need to consider and are also largely down to preference/musical style Quote
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