Stumped

[Buter]

Am I just being a bit thick?

With the pup selector to both pups, turning either of the volume pots all the way down kills both pups. This is the first time that I've wired a guitar this way and I've never played a standard LP with the 2 vol/2 tone pot setup.

I'll try to describe how I've got this little monster wired - 2 buckers with their hots going to a normal on/on/on 3 way and the wires from the other coils off to their own push/pull for a coil tap. The out put from the 3 way then goes into an active tone booster circuit that also has a bypass. There is also a concentric tone pot that serves both volume pots - each volume to its own tone pot in the concentric (I've tried disconnecting one lead and the problem still persists. The output from the active circuit goes through a kill switch (which also disconnects the battery supply) and out to the jack.

So, have I done something wrong, or does this normally happen with a 4 pot setup in the 'both' position?

Cheers

Buter

[Tim37]

theres two wiring setups for lp's a a 50's and a modern i believe you are currently using the 50's style and are wanting the modern.

http://www.dominocs.com/AshBassGuitar/Wire...ary-Gibson.html

[Ken Bennett]

No, that does not normally happen.

You didn't say where the volume pots are.

You say the pickups go to the pickup selector switch. Normally, with four pots, the pickups go to the volume pots, then to the switch.

Can you show a diagram of how you wired it?

[Buter]

Thanks guys.

You're right, Ken, I didn't say where the volume pots were. The output from the pups goes into the push/pull volume pots and then out to the pup selector switch.

(sorry, my little girl wanted me to put that into the post)

I have used the left hand tag (when viewed from the back) of the volume pots for the volume input/tone pot output and the middle tag as the output to the selector switch.

I'll have a closer look at the wiring diagrams that Tim provided a link for. I think they just switch which tags are used on the volume pots (from memory).

I went to my friends house last night and he's got about 8 LP's from various years, most original and a couple of copies (one Jimmy Page as well, if you're into sig guitars). Half of his guitars behaved as mine does, half do not. There was no obvious rhyme or reason to it, but it may well be the small differenct that Tim pointed out. I would have looked in the cavity but I saw Tim's post after I got home.

After thinking about it, you would never really want both selected with one of the pups all the way off, so it is just a discussion of wiring theory, really. The fact that the guitar did something I wasn't expecting means I've a bit more to learn about basic wiring, hence the question.

Cheeers

Buter

[Ken Bennett]

Buter,

I changed my mind. What you describe is common. I've owned 2 LP's and 2 335's, but the last one was about 15 years ago, so my memory was mistaken.

As a matter of fact, I never liked having separate volume controls. On my last LP I modified it to have a master volume, 2 pickup volumes that didn't go all the way to zero (grounds lifted), and a single tone. There is a circuit like that on Tim's link.

On the guitars we build now, there is usually just a single volume control, with or without a tone pot, sometimes a blend control.

If you want to change your guitar, use one of the circuits on Tim's link that says "With Independent Volume Controls". The main difference is the pickup goes in to the center lug, and out from the end lug.

Edited October 16, 2010 by Ken Bennett

[borge]

The switches position in the circuit makes no difference.

modern wiring can achieve variable pickup blending unlike 50's wiring.

modern wiring gives less desirable volume vs tone interaction, something gibson must feel is worth sacrificing for independent volumes...

modern wiring doesn't vary the resistance between the voltage dividers (vol pot) output and earth, 50's wiring does.

If you draw up a wee circuit diagram (not a wiring diagram) of how modern and 50's wiring differ the functional differences will become clear.

[Paul Marossy]

The main difference that I see between the 50s wiring and the "modern" wiring is where the tone control gets its signal from - it's either directly from the pickups before the volume control or on the output of the volume control. That would make a difference in how it works....

Edited October 19, 2010 by Paul Marossy

[guitar2005]

The main difference that I see between the 50s wiring and the "modern" wiring is where the tone control gets its signal from - it's either directly from the pickups before the volume control or on the output of the volume control. That would make a difference in how it works....

Hey! You're the guy from the Parker Forum. People worship you over there!

[borge]

The main difference that I see between the 50s wiring and the "modern" wiring is where the tone control gets its signal from - it's either directly from the pickups before the volume control or on the output of the volume control. That would make a difference in how it works....

That difference affects this aspect:

modern wiring gives less desirable volume vs tone interaction, something gibson must feel is worth sacrificing for independent volumes...

But isn't the reason for the independent volume issue which has nothing to do with the tone pots...

this refers to the volume pots only:

modern wiring doesn't vary the resistance between the voltage dividers (vol pot) output and earth, 50's wiring does.

If you draw up a wee circuit diagram (not a wiring diagram) of how modern and 50's wiring differ the functional differences will become clear.

[KeithHowell]

Here's the circuit diagram for independant tone and volume:

[Paul Marossy]

The main difference that I see between the 50s wiring and the "modern" wiring is where the tone control gets its signal from - it's either directly from the pickups before the volume control or on the output of the volume control. That would make a difference in how it works....

Hey! You're the guy from the Parker Forum. People worship you over there!

Yeah, that's me. You're funny, no one there worships me, lol.

The main difference that I see between the 50s wiring and the "modern" wiring is where the tone control gets its signal from - it's either directly from the pickups before the volume control or on the output of the volume control. That would make a difference in how it works....

That difference affects this aspect:

modern wiring gives less desirable volume vs tone interaction, something gibson must feel is worth sacrificing for independent volumes...

But isn't the reason for the independent volume issue which has nothing to do with the tone pots...

this refers to the volume pots only:

modern wiring doesn't vary the resistance between the voltage dividers (vol pot) output and earth, 50's wiring does.

If you draw up a wee circuit diagram (not a wiring diagram) of how modern and 50's wiring differ the functional differences will become clear.

So the "volume" pot in "modern wiring" scheme is just a variable resistor instead of a real volume control? Sorry if it's a dumb question, I'm a Fender/Ibanez/Parker guy trying to learn about Gibson wiring...

[Mender]

So the "volume" pot in "modern wiring" scheme is just a variable resistor instead of a real volume control? Sorry if it's a dumb question, I'm a Fender/Ibanez/Parker guy trying to learn about Gibson wiring...

A volume control is a variable resistor whatever guitar it is fitted in.

[Paul Marossy]

So the "volume" pot in "modern wiring" scheme is just a variable resistor instead of a real volume control? Sorry if it's a dumb question, I'm a Fender/Ibanez/Parker guy trying to learn about Gibson wiring...

A volume control is a variable resistor whatever guitar it is fitted in.

That wiring diagram looked like it didn't have the volume pots connected to ground, so in either case they should be connected to ground. A volume control to me is a voltage divider, not a variable resistor. If you took the ground connection off of the volume control, then it's a variable resistor.

Anyway, now I am confused as to what the heck the difference is between "50s wiring" and "modern wiring".

[Tim37]

with the 50's whire if the pickup selector is in the middle, then either volume control will work as a master volume for the guitar. with modern wiring the volumes work each pickup indepentantly when the selector is in the middle. but a lot of people say that the guitars sound different idk i have never compared the two side by side on identical guitars.

[Paul Marossy]

with the 50's whire if the pickup selector is in the middle, then either volume control will work as a master volume for the guitar. with modern wiring the volumes work each pickup indepentantly when the selector is in the middle. but a lot of people say that the guitars sound different idk i have never compared the two side by side on identical guitars.

Oh gee, that's all anyone had to say! If they do sound different, in my estimation, it's got to be because of the tone cap arrangement.

[WezV]

forget 50's and modern wiring for a moment. it makes bugger all difference to the 'master volume' effect and just refers to the way the tone control works (and how it affects the volume)

on each volume pot you currently have the hot from pickups going to tag 1, the wire to the switch coming from tag 2 and tag 3 goes straight to ground. simply swap tag 1 with tag 2

....

right!

so back to modern vs 50's since it came up

they both cut out when one volume is turned down, this is the way gibsons have been wired for a long time - but 50's has more interplay between volume and tone controls. tbh i dont really prefer one way over the other but its worth trying as different guitars act differnet ways.

[WezV]

oh, and if you want a reason for having independant volumes.... it makes a nice kill switch

[borge]

they both cut out when one volume is turned down, this is the way gibsons have been wired for a long time - but 50's has more interplay between volume and tone controls. tbh i dont really prefer one way over the other but its worth trying as different guitars act differnet ways.

Er, no they don't.

Here's the circuit diagram for independant tone and volume:

See how the pup signal in is on the wiper (small arrow), as you turn the knob the signal resistance to ground is varied.

the outputs resistance to earth is constant ie 500kohms=the other pup sees 500k to ground regardless of this pots position, only it's own pot can reduce it's resistance to earth

Now if you reverse the output and input (pup signal) as 50's wiring is.

Now the outputs resistance to earth is varied ie the tip becomes connected to sleeve as either volume is turned down= 2x master volumes

[KeithHowell]

the outputs resistance to earth is constant ie 500kohms=the other pup sees 500k to ground regardless of this pots position, only it's own pot can reduce it's resistance to earth

Actually the output sees 250k to earth when both pickups are selected (the 2 500K in parallel but I am just being pedantic) But Borge you are correct. I have modified a few Gibson's and Epiphones and they work like that with independent volume controls!

My advice to all those who keep referring to wiring LAYOUT diagrams. Draw out or refer to CIRCUIT diagrams as I posted above. It is far easier to work out and understand what is happening.

Keith

[WezV]

they both cut out when one volume is turned down, this is the way gibsons have been wired for a long time - but 50's has more interplay between volume and tone controls. tbh i dont really prefer one way over the other but its worth trying as different guitars act differnet ways.

Er, no they don't.

i was not disagreeing with your diagram for independant volumes - reread my post just before the bit you quoted. You took a quote from me about tone pot wiring! i was saying that both 'modern' and '50's' wiring both have the master volume effect... that is they both cut out when one volume is turned down because modern/50's generally refers to tone pot wiring not volume pot wiring - at least in the cork sniffing arenas where modern/50's wiring gets debated

This discussion got taken off track by the modern/50's thing! The issue in the initial post is purely which tag of the pot the pickup gets wired to - which i think is exactly what your diagram shows and exactly what i described!!!

Lets have some clarity here, in a useful way for PG rather than a useful way to copy an old guitar

first i choose if i want independant volumes or the master volume effect - that dictates how to wire the volume control

Next i will choose if i want 50's or modern wiring, and that dictates how i wire the tone pot to the volume pot

As far as function goes, these two choices are independant of each, for example -

On a LP style guitar you can easily have:

Independant vols with 50's wiring on the tone pots

Master volumes with 50's wiring on the tone pots (the most common version of 50's wiring)

Independant volumes with modern tone pots (Some gibsons are done this way, its the one shown in your diagram)

Master volumes with modern tone pots (the way a lot of gibsons are wired)

If the tonepot connects to the volume on the same tag as the pickup, its modern style. If it connects to the volume on the same tag as the switch, its 50's. This change in tone wiring DOES NOT affect the master volume vs independant volume issue.

[1166zhang]

maybe you do something wrong

[WezV]

or maybe he just did something different

[Buter]

maybe you do something wrong

Certainly a possibility with anything I'm involved in. In fact, when something does not work the way that I had planned or expected, I make the initial assumption that I have done something wrong. Once pride is out of the question, troubleshooting is considerably easier.

WRT this particular guitar, it is the first one that I've built or tinkered with that had seperate controls for each pup. Knowing that this was the first time that I had wired a guitar this way, it was a reasonable assumption to believe that I had done something incorrectly when the instrument behaved differently than what I was expecting.

In this instance, after rewiring, asking questions and examining other guitars, I have reevaluated my initial diagnosis (that I had made a mistake) and come to the conclusion that the guitar was behaving exactly as it should, given the way that I had wired it. The sound coming out of this guitar is absolutely monstrous and I can get some really killer tones with both pups switched on. Given the previous sentance it sould be no surprise that I am leaving the wiring exactly the way it is.

Having asked the question here and reading the responses that followed, I now have a better knowledge of guitar wiring theories. I'd say I've got a win/win thing going on here.

Thanks for all of the responses, guys.

Cheers

Buter

[psw]

You might find this thread of interest at GN2 regarding 50's vs Modern wiring on LP type guitars...

JohnH tecnical stuff on 50's-Mod wiring

As I found on my old original LP, there is a deep cut in treble as the volumes are turned down...I installed on that guitar and others like it treble bleed caps to compensate, the tone being brighter as it is turned down.

On super bright fender like my tele, it can be good to leave them out so that as you turn down it takes off some bite of course.

I played the old gibson through all of my 'live' career (such as it was) and found the layout to be really useful. Turning off one pickup made it super easy to turn the guitar off as required and between sets...also makes a good kill switch effect al la townsend if required. But, in moderation (not all off) it does provide a good mix of sounds so you can quickly go from a full on lead sound to something more sedate or inbetween and mix different tones as well on the fly...handy if you are doing vocals as well. Any mods like coil splitting also become handy, mixing a split neck and HB say and mixing to taste with volume and controls I often use to this day.

In many ways a single volume control as with a fender is preferable for me, but this layout which i recently returned to on my new guitar, certainly has it's uses.