14thandclark Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 Good afternoon, I've just begun my first build. Just for simplicity during my learning process I've bought plans and a template for a simple flat top RG style body. I've done a lot of scrounging around forums and I'm pretty confident with the body of the guitar but the neck is where I'm getting a little nervous. So here's what i want to confirm and ask: 1. I'm using a hipshot contour tremolo. Most flat tops need little to no neck angle, and minor adjustments can be made by raising/lowering the bridge itself to find the correct string height? 2. the hipshot is 2 1/16 string while the floyd rose used in the template is about 1/16-2/16 wider. Do I need to make any adjustments to the width of neck at the heel? 3. Since I'm not using a locking nut with a standard tremolo of course, in your opinion what is the best set up for stable tuning including the nut material, scarf joint vs no angle. From what I've read people suggested graphite nuts. As far as headstock angle I've read the angle creates tighter tension making tuning more stable AND the with a straight head there is less resistance at the nut ending in similar result. I'm a noob but trying to do my research. I appreciate any input or advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curtisa Posted December 3, 2015 Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 1. To a limit, yes. It will depend somewhat on how you want the Hipshot trem to be set up (dive-only, fully floating, how much upwards trem movement you want to include etc) and how deep you set the neck vertically into the pocket. It helps to be able to draw some of this out at full scale to determine how much room you have to play with. 2. If you've already settled on or purchased the bridge you should be designing the neck to suit, rather than assuming an existing neck design will accommodate your hardware. The other thing that will have an impact is the string spacing at the nut. The FretFind2D design tool can help here. 3. By 'straight head' I assume you mean the Fender-style neck where the face of the headstock is stepped back from the surface of the fretboard. IME this kind of headstock is actually worse for tuning stability with non-locking trem usage, as the angle the strings take behind the nut is not equal for each string. For a standard Fender non-reversed 6-a-side headstock the bass strings have a higher break angle than the treble strings, and will have a tendency to bind and lose tuning with heavy trem usage. Adding string retainers on the headstock to the treble strings to equalise the string angles only makes things worse, as it just adds another friction point for the string to bind against and the treble strings end up being more likley to lose tuning. Graphite (or other low friction material) nuts will help. Using a shallower headstock angle will help, as will equalising the break angle for each string, which nudges the builder towards a scarf joint anyway. If you're set on a Fender-style neck construction the other thing that can help are staggered tuning posts, which assist by reducing the break angle of the strings for the bass strings, and ovoiding the use of string retainers on the trebles. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted December 3, 2015 Report Share Posted December 3, 2015 Those are good well thought-out questions so you clearly understand the direction you're headed! Excellent. You shouldn't be too far off the mark with the Contour bridge having a slightly different string spacing. They have a string spacing of 2,08" (52,8mm) which isn't hugely smaller than a Floyd at 53,5mm (2,11"). That discrepancy is smaller by the time the strings are at the neck so for what it's worth I think slightly narrower is a non-issue. The difference exists, and generally you'd factor this into the build from the design stage....not the easiest thing to do when working from templates. I think you'll get away with it, and possible even not notice. Reducing friction at the nut and maybe using locking tuners is the best way forward. I'm an advocate of zero frets which are a good way of reducing points where the strings can bind up. Not really an option for yourself at this stage though I think. A good slippery nut like a Graph Tech should do the trick. How are you making the nut area up? Like a Fender or a Gibson? An LSR nut is also a possibility, but a little more fiddly to install correctly. Other than that, what "curtisa said"! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
14thandclark Posted December 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 Sorry for the late response. I'm in the military so I have to really make time for this. First off thanks so much for the advice. No negative reaction for new guys here which is really nice. So as far as the headstock goes I've been exploring forums and finding that people are having good tuning stability with 10-15 neck angle, locking tuners, and a graphite nut. I understand there's not really a 100% right way to do this. The zero fret prostheta! I've never seen it before I started to explore this. Something to look forward too. So ive received my bridge. Currently making a template for it. Mainly just in case I use hipshot products again in the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
14thandclark Posted December 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 3 hours ago, 14thandclark said: Sorry for the late response. I'm in the military so I have to really make time for this. First off thanks so much for the advice. No negative reaction for new guys here which is really nice. So as far as the headstock goes I've been exploring forums and finding that people are having good tuning stability with 10-15 neck angle, locking tuners, and a graphite nut. I understand there's not really a 100% right way to do this. The zero fret prostheta! I've never seen it before I started to explore this. Something to look forward too. So ive received my bridge. Currently making a template for it. Mainly just in case I use hipshot products again in the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted December 9, 2015 Report Share Posted December 9, 2015 @curtisa - this just got me thinking....whereabouts is your OFR router template article published? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curtisa Posted December 9, 2015 Report Share Posted December 9, 2015 Ummmm...You're the criminal mastermind of this outfit. You don't know? I would have thought it'd just appear in the Articles list, but maybe it's been nuked by something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted December 9, 2015 Report Share Posted December 9, 2015 I'll have a look tomorrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
14thandclark Posted December 15, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 15, 2015 Body and finally book matched top. Working with minimal tools Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
14thandclark Posted December 15, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 15, 2015 Rough cut Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
14thandclark Posted December 15, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 15, 2015 Now attempting to bend the 1/4 in laminate top to the contour. A little tough but so far it's working. Just used some moisture, clothes iron, and clamps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
14thandclark Posted December 15, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 15, 2015 So questions from here... i bookmatched it with a hand planer. Went okay. I just have very limited experience with them so there was minor imperfections. But say I want to hide evidence of a line what is the best way to go about it? My next step after finishing the gluing would be to sand the sides with my new spindle sander. Finish sanding the body. Big question though is it generally recommended to use a grain filler for the mohageny? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottR Posted December 16, 2015 Report Share Posted December 16, 2015 Pretty much everything you can do to hide a glue line takes place before you glue it. At this point your options are limited. You can inlay an accent stripe of another fine piece of wood. The same wood as your fretboard would be a good choice. Otherwise try to make the rest of the guitar so awesome that attention is drawn elsewhere. If you want a gloss finish then it is best to fill the pores in the mahogany. A matte finish will benefit from pore filling in most cases, but I've seen some that look great without. And a natural oil finish should not be pore filled. Tru oil can be the exception to that rule, but that is typically built up to a gloss film finish. SR 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted December 16, 2015 Report Share Posted December 16, 2015 Quote Pretty much everything you can do to hide a glue line takes place before you glue it. At this point your options are limited. That should be written into the back of your eyelids. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
14thandclark Posted December 16, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 16, 2015 Okay I appreciate it. Im pretty happy with how it turned out considering this is my first one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted December 17, 2015 Report Share Posted December 17, 2015 Can't wait to see progress! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
14thandclark Posted December 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 18, 2015 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottR Posted December 18, 2015 Report Share Posted December 18, 2015 That is one of the more unique tops I've seen. It looks like a bookmatched mountain scene in sepia-tone, complete with a brown lake reflecting the mountains in the foreground. It also looks like the bending process was a success. And the glue line, as seen in this shot is not objectionable to me at all. Of course, you built it which makes you it's strictest critic, and once you see you cannot un-see it. Welcome to our world. Remember, two thirds of that will be hidden by the neck, strings and hardware. I think it will become a non-issue, even for you. Very nicely done to this point, carry on. SR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
14thandclark Posted December 21, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 21, 2015 Quick question. I'm opting to do a set neck. I've been getting a lot of tips from videos by "Crimson guitars" on YouTube. The guy running the channel says that more surface area glued the better but most neck joints will be sufficient. Would it benefit me to route a deeper neck pocket than the standard RG style guitar to make it stronger? This one is 5/8 deep Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted December 22, 2015 Report Share Posted December 22, 2015 I'm 50/50 about the information coming out of Crimson Guitars' channel, and there are a lot of people around professional luthier communities who are quick to point out flawed reasoning, generalisation and subjective opinion passed as objective fact. Simply, just use it as part of a wider sourcing of information and sort through it using your own sense filtering mechanism ;-) Surface area is important, however not all surfaces are the same. For example, on your body the flat lower surface is the most important one, closely followed by the sidewalls. The surface perpendicular to the direction of tension under string pull is utmost importance; this is why bolt-on necks work better with screws in that direction! Sidewalls are still important, but less so than that inner heel face. End grain (back of the pocket, end face of the neck) provides virtually zero gluing strength. Butt joints and endgrain are always the weakest. They don't even factor into the equation for all intents and purposes. The lower sidewall (treble side) is thin and will again provide no usable strength. This is part of the reason that old Gibson SGs could be so unstable....they had far less gluing surface area than yours currently has! A deeper neck pocket will increase the bass-side wall surface area which is useful, however you want to keep as much strength in the lower face as possible. I wouldn't go any less than 15mm. A good clean and well-mated set of surfaces will always be better than sloppy ones, but this almost goes without saying. Did you mill the neck pocket before making the neck? Sorry if I skipped a bit. Generally it is better practice to make the neck and then transfer its dimensions to the body using a temporary jig or a dedicated neck pocket jig to ensure a razor-thin join. It just means that this way around is a little more difficult to get perfect is all. Love that top. It'll be a stunner once it develops further! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
14thandclark Posted December 24, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 24, 2015 ...nooooo I didn't. I haven't really found a step by step way to do everything in a "correct" order. I hope it's not a big deal. I was actually a little nervous. I was leaning toward a set neck looking for simplicity. I guess I'll just have to be very careful. scarf joint was cut and glued. 17' angle. Truss rod is in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted December 25, 2015 Report Share Posted December 25, 2015 Okay, well that isn't the end of the world by any means. It simply gives us a kick in the arse to write up that very same order of things :-) If the neck you're making is "pretty standard" then the taper shouldn't be too far off. You simply need to ensure that the width is not below that of the pocket. You mentioned fretfind2D a while back in the thread....is the neck being made completely off your own specs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curtisa Posted December 26, 2015 Report Share Posted December 26, 2015 ScottR or sdshirtman may have opinions regarding the suitability of adapting a bolt-on neck pocket to set neck construction. Personally I suspect there won't be quite enough surface area in an RG-style neck joint to develop a strong bond by gluing only, but I defer to the experts. As the pocket has been made first I'd suggest making up a MDF template that fits the pocket. Sand and shape it bit by bit until it fits tigthtly and squarely. Once it fits extend the centreline of the body up the middle of the MDF template to establish the centre of the neck shape. Use the MDF template to route/shape the heel of your neck blank taking care to line up the projected centreline on the template to the centre of the neck blank.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted December 26, 2015 Report Share Posted December 26, 2015 On 12/15/2015 at 0:42 AM, 14thandclark said: ....eyeballing the template here, I would say that it should be enough if it is a snug joint. The treble sidewall provides a less than preferable gluing surface, however if the neck could gain even 1/2" more into the body it would be golden. Hell, you could extend it well into the neck pickup area and just rout it out after the fact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted December 26, 2015 Report Share Posted December 26, 2015 I've seen vintage SGs with far smaller gluing surfaces that still survive happily, and they're skinny on both sides of the tenon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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