Regius meets RG: first build in progress

[Prostheta]

Yeah, those are nice guitars. Nina's is going to be a dyed-in-the-wool Jr simple by being single pickup and tone/vol. Nothing more than is needed.

[Rockhorst]

Enough small talk The truss rod route is now nice and snug. Aligned wasn't perfect with the initial cut of the router, so there's a few dings, but that will all be covered up by a little plate. So, onwards we go. If I want to have any chance of finishing before winter, I have to start planning my next build steps. So some background with some specific questions attached.

I could spend some hours shaping the neck blank and headstock, but it may be wiser to postpone that until I've decided how to attack the fretboard. I noticed with the cigar box project that when radiusing I have a tendency to over sand the ends, esp the end closest to me. My second attempt was a lot better, but certainly not flawless. I drew a few lines along the board and they first vanished at the ends. With the CBG it's okay, but for the serious big guitar I want to get it to a higher standard.

• Would a longer, possibly aluminum, radius block help? I'm going for a constant 12" or possibly 14". I don't really have a preference for radius, as long as it's 10" or up, I'll play it.

I'm considering doing the entire fretboard separately from the neck except for the fretting. The steps in order would be: Trim it, cut fret slots, possibly trim it again for binding, bind the board, radius it and glue it to the blank. Then shape the neck.

• Is binding before radiusing a good idea?
• Shape neck before or after attaching the fretboard?
• For the binding on the body I was going to use acetone as a 'glue'. I rarely see this used on fretboards though. Is super glue a better choice?

Any and all other suggestions are most welcome. I know there's multiple ways of doing all of this, but I'm looking for most fool proof I guess. That's a big reason for preparing the fretboard before gluing: if the result is unsatisfactory, I don't have to pry it off the neck blank.

[Norris]

13 hours ago, Rockhorst said:

• Would a longer, possibly aluminum, radius block help? I'm going for a constant 12" or possibly 14". I don't really have a preference for radius, as long as it's 10" or up, I'll play it.

• Is binding before radiusing a good idea?
• Shape neck before or after attaching the fretboard?
• For the binding on the body I was going to use acetone as a 'glue'. I rarely see this used on fretboards though. Is super glue a better choice?

In my humble opinion...

• Difficult to say, as I used a plane to do my compound radius (still on my first build!). However I would try to keep your weight over the main part of the board to avoid rounding over - a longer beam might help, so that your hand doesn't need to go within a couple of inches of the ends of the board i.e. let the beam do the levelling and keep enough of it in contact with the board to avoid any tilting at the ends. A slight rounding off on the topmost frets is actually desirable
• Yes, although I've seen a few people do a rough radius before binding & finishing it off when it's glued to the neck blank
• After. It's easier to glue & clamp your board onto a square neck blank. Plus, if you trim too much off the width then your nicely bound board won't fit any more.
• Acetone is good for adhesion. Personally I used Weld-On as shown in this post (my first ever attempt at binding - the body went much better)

[Prostheta]

I prefer longer beams due to how I use them during sanding. Full contact at all times when sanding back and forth (so all areas receive the same amount of work) and less work required for longer boards. Scrubbing can lead to one area being sanding low or twists in the profile. I mean, you can use shorter blocks however you have to be that much more conscious of the pitfalls or potential for errors creeping in and why. I started moving to long aluminium beams since G&W started producing them at a dirt cheap price. StewMac's are prohibitively-expensive, especially when you factor shipping and the obligatory DHL sliming their hands into your wallet for bullshit "customs brokering fees".

[Rockhorst]

I certainly wasn't going to get the beams from stewmac, even though there's some other stuff I want to order from them. But $100 for a piece of aluminum that's worth just a few bucks is insane.

[Rockhorst]

9 hours ago, Norris said:

• Acetone is good for adhesion. Personally I used Weld-On as shown in this post (my first ever attempt at binding - the body went much better)

So yay or nay on acetone?

I like how you got your binding channel there. Very clever, without any need for router tables. To late for me now, but I'll consider that next time!

[ScottR]

You can use your short radius blocks to make longer beams out of wood easily enough. Just radius a wider board the same way you would your fretboard and use that to make a longer wooden radius sanding beam.

SR

[Norris]

10 hours ago, Rockhorst said:

So yay or nay on acetone?

I like how you got your binding channel there. Very clever, without any need for router tables. To late for me now, but I'll consider that next time!

I don't know if I have enough experience to say. @Prostheta swears by acetone. I used the Weld-On on the recommendation of my instructor. The Weld-On does give you a few minutes to faff around and doesn't evaporate away like acetone. However on the couple of bits that have needed tidying up I used acetone to do the fix (which handily dissolves the Weld-On). If it's your first attempt you might find it easier to use Weld-On due to the working time. Beware though, it's very runny - the same consistency as the old polystyrene cement you used to use on your Airfix kits  (although obviously not as fluid as acetone!)

One thing that will help, whichever fixing method you use, is to try to pre-form the binding into shape before trying to stick it on. It's a much easier job when you're not fighting against the tension. Stop occasionally on a straight or gently curved section to bend the next part A hairdryer on its hottest setting is useful for bending plastic binding.

[Prostheta]

Depends if the binding is thin (it's exponentially more difficult to keep corners tight and clean) and if it's even soluble in acetone. Celluloid and ABS definitely are. I'm doing an Android tablet in-dash install to our PT Cruiser which requires a lot of ABS modification, welding and filling for which I'm using an acetone and ABS slurry plus a soldering iron. MEK also works if that's easier to get ahold of. Just remember that both of them kill your brain permanently. Ventilation!!

Agreed about the hair dryer. Just don't overdo it otherwise plastic can stretch rather than relax. Obviously don't set fire to celluloid. 

Plumber's suppliers sell ABS cement or car bodywork suppliers ABS welding kits and consumables. They're more or less a mixture of ABS and acetone/MEK, and hell....you can make your own in a jar.

[Rockhorst]

I already tested the binding (1.15 mm) a while ago, and it melts/dissolves very easily.

[Prostheta]

I like acetone because it's thin and wicks in as well. Forgot to mention that bit.

[Rockhorst]

Too soon for anything definite, but I've switched from a half-face mask to a full face mask and it seems that it is working a lot better for me. I read somewhere yesterday that P100 filters with a half-face mask is not a good combo since the increased pressured needed to breathe makes leakage more likely. I even looked into active masks, but they all have P2 filters which sort of seems to be missing the point imo. Curious how the full face mask holds up when I'm doing machine work.

[Prostheta]

I have no end of troubles with mask seals. Which one are you using right now?

[Rockhorst]

I've switched from a Moldex 7002 (half face) to a Moldex 9002 (full face) with the same P100 filters installed. It's looks like it's really making a difference. I've only done some light work sanding and sawing the past few days, but previously that was enough to make my lungs 'itchy'. This weekend I'll try it on while jigsawing maple and ebony. That'll be the definitive test.

[Prostheta]

I'd like to test out a 3M 6800 full face mask for paint and dust. I know it's all "premium brand" kind of thing, however if they can't get it right then it'll have to be a diving bell instead.

[Rockhorst]

Back after a two month period of silence. I made another mistake with a router and had to get some new wood for the neck and start over. I got super busy at work and so the project didn't progress much. I've now progressed just beyond the point where I was two months ago, so back on track.

First of all: I did manage to finish the cigar box guitar. The neck I made for it turned out to be quite nice, though the fretwork is a bit dodgy in places. Some pictures.

Back to the Regius type build. I've routed the neck outline and roughly cut out the headstock shape..

I will clean up the rough cut headstock this week on a drum sander. After that I think I should route the binding channel for the headstock, before attaching the fretboard. I could use a make-shift router table for that, but am not really comfortable with the idea. I'd much prefer using a hand held router. I can't find a lot of instructions for this procedure, so hopefully someone can offer some advice or suggestions? The headstock is at a 14 degree angle to the neck shaft.

Oh, and happy holidays to all

Edited December 26, 2016 by Rockhorst

[Prostheta]

I prefer a router table as there is much more stability offering the workpiece to the cutter on a flat surface, rather than vice versa. If you're cobbling together a large sub-base onto a router for this purpose, it can work as long as it is safe and stable. The base should be thick. In all honesty, I've had more problems with running a router on a headstock than I have on tables or even jury-rigged bases.

Happy festivus to yourself also! Nice having you back at this very time.

[Rockhorst]

Past week I worked on cleaning up the neck. The lasered templates where a bit too wide, but I decided to run with it and sand/scrape to the desired thickness. This produced blotchy sides, not straight at all anymore. I wanted a perfectly straight edge to run the binding bit over. Rerouted and fixed that. Now my neck is about 42 mm wide at the nut instead of the 43 mm (like the Fenders I mostly play) I planned, but that's ok. My Music Man Silhouette is a very narrow 41 mm wide at the nut. I'm now basically shooting for something in between the two.

Shaping the headstock with a drum sander went like a charm. It's not an exact match to the template, but I'm more than pleased with it. Still have to check for tuner alignment though.

I also debated with myself at length whether the (bound) fretboard should be made separately or after gluing it to the neck. My thoughts on that changed about every half an hour. The neck troubles described above eventually steered me towards a separate fretboard. It's now slotted and routed to be the same width as the neck after binding is installed.

I have a good picture of the possible steps ahead, but can't decide on the best order to do them in. I'd like some advice on that. The neck is still at a constant thickness, the fretboard has not been bound or radiused yet. For the shaping of the neck I'd like to use the method of taking away facets that tangent the curve. The thickness at the nut is going to be about 4 mm less than the heel.

First, I'll cut the headstock binding slot. Then either one of the two plans below (currently I'm liking Plan A the best)

Plan A

1. Finish fretboard, including radius and possibly frets, while fretboard is not glued to neck
2. With neck at constant thickness take the first facet off and then route tapered thickness (this is a lot less material to remove)
3. Glue on fretboard
4. Finish shaping

Plan B

1. Attach fretboard to neck as it is now and use the 'ridge' of the neck to help with binding it.
2. Radius fretboard (no frets yet)
3. Cut first facet and taper thickness by hand (because the neck can't lie flat on the fretboard anymore)
4. Finish shaping

[psikoT]

I've seen so many different ways to do that... I guess you can take the process in the order you feel more comfortable.

My way to do the fretboard:

- Slot
- Taper
- Bind
- Glue
- Flush neck sides to fretboard
- Radius
- Polish
- Frets

[Prostheta]

Mostly the order of processes is driven by available tools - and hence ways of going about any specific task - and by reference surfaces. Take binding....cutting a binding ledge requires flat perpendicular surfaces for the bearing and router to ride around, or for the workpiece to locate flat onto a table. A lot of the time, the ordering defines itself by choices made earlier in the build or simple necessity.

[Rockhorst]

I added binding to one side of the fingerboard using acetone. After it dried I filled some spot on the underside with plastic-and-acetone goop. So far so good. I did some scraping of the side as the binding tape made a few indentations. I also tried to level the underside with a scraper. Clamping the board onto the neck for a test fit, there's now a very clear cap between neck and fingerboard where at first there was none.

I may have overscraped a bit, but I also read somewhere else that trying to get this entirely flush is more or less futile. Should I attempt it, or perhaps fill in with binding paste after gluing? I guess this problem could've been prevented by binding after gluing the fretboard.

[Prostheta]

It's difficult to tell without having been hands-on with the process. It could be that the binding channel was not perfectly square or any number of causes. Can you see if the binding edge was square?

Binding paste might be messier than it sounds, especially since it's very difficult to "pack" the paste into a small gap like that. Personally, I'd just re-bind it since I think that isn't too much of a problem at this stage is it? Other than not having enough binding, perhaps?

I bind with raw acetone also. It's not ideal for fine purflings, since the acetone mushes up the lines easily if you use too much acetone and/or pressure from the tape. That said, pressure from the tape with a little dabbed acetone mushes the softened binding out a bit into the wood and any gaps that might be there.

Binding finish quality is probably the biggest causative issue with gappy binding. I'm wanting to build a small scraping jig for squaring binding up. The wide flat surfaces are usually fine, however the edges are usually pretty crappy in all but the best quality binding these days.

[Rockhorst]

I clamped the fingerboard down on a flat piece of MDF-board covered with some taut wax paper. The end result seems to be square to me. What would be the best way to remove the binding without having to much clean up?

[Prostheta]

Ah, I see what you're doing. So that's a test fit? Right.

It might be that the flattening process is causing the edges to bellow out and create a gap? I thought you were binding with the fingerboard on the neck. Disregard what I said previously. That was me thinking about binding in situ. That's what I get for posting in a hurry....

If I were binding a fingerboard off the neck, I'd put a couple of layers of masking tape under the fingerboard to "lift" it off the surface. When you bind it, that should give you a hair of material to scrape back into the flat. Removing the binding....it might be easier to glue the fingerboard to the neck as-is and then rout the binding off. That would guarantee you a perfect slot. I mean, to be honest....the neck has long flat reference surfaces for the bearing which makes it a far easier task. Unless you're radiused already.

It's bothering me that there's a gap in the first place really. Fixing something without first figuring out how the problem occurred just doesn't run straight in my brain....I need to have that understanding so I know how not to allow that problem to re-occur in future I guess....!

[Rockhorst]

Yeah, it was a test fit indeed. The gap is pretty constant across the length of the fingerboard. The unbound side seems to still sit nicely on the neck, but it may be fooling me (dark wood/shadow).

To be honest, I don't trust the neck's straightness and squareness 100%. After routing a straight ledge I seem to always have to take out a few minor bumps and with my limited wood working skills...it's straight enough to be shaped into a neck, but maybe not good enough for a binding channel rout. I really liked the idea of binding the fretboard separately, but in hindsight gluing it to the neck is much preferred, as it should circumvent the entire issue.

On a related note, I feel I'm fast approaching the point where I shrug my shoulders and decide to start over. There's sort of a build up of errors and by themselves they are all fixable, but its slowly drifting away from the intended design. Had a mishap with routing the binding channel on the headstock. I could've totally prevented that if I had thought about it a little more deeply. It's fixable but only at the expense of headstock width.