'58 Explorer - 1st build

[Bizman62]

5 hours ago, Prostheta said:

I was more referring to the open seam that is left when a surface isn't flat, so that the curve on the edge "drops away" from the veneer leaving a small open line.

Fully understood. That's what I was referring to as well when saying that the veneer can fill minor gaps by swelling. Of course it depends on the size of the dropaway.

Thinking out loud a bit further, glueing a thin veneer on the original headstock and then leveling it so that only the edge is covered might be an even better option. Or routing the curve away and inlay sort of a purfling - that method would leave the original headstock mostly untouched which might add strength more than a glued veneer.

@asgeirogm, looking at the picture there may be yet another option that doesn't require making the neck thinner: Simply add a top long and thick enough to replace the lost material. This drawing should be self-explaining:

[asgeirogm]

50 minutes ago, Bizman62 said:

Simply add a top long and thick enough to replace the lost material.

This is what I had in mind when I was talking about the cap, maybe my terminology is a bit off I was thinking that I could plane the front of the headstock so it's perfectly flat and then I would make a top for the headstock from the same piece of sapele that's like 1-2 mm thick, then glue that on, route the edges flush and voila.

I guess I will end up doing that just to get the maximum strength possible as I am a little worried about that.

I was looking at the grain just now and I didn't spend too much analyzing the grain when I picked this piece of wood for the neck and now that I am, I think maybe the grain might not be straight enough. 

I've recently read that if using Sapele for a neck, the grain should be very straight as the neck can twist. Am I in trouble here? At least I have a 6mm ebony fretboard, which should help some, right? 

 

[Prostheta]

If the wood wants to move then it will. Sapele can be twisty, yes. The fingerboard doesn't help reduce twisting that much as the force will always be there. It's like counteracting and reducing rather than complete elimination.

[asgeirogm]

@Prostheta Can you judge from these pictures whether it looks straight enough to probably be okay or if it looks likely to twist? 

[Prostheta]

Difficult to tell, however it's not that straight. there's a big change in direction it seems, but then again it might be fine. This is why I always laminate, so I can balance opposing potential forces against each other.

[asgeirogm]

Gotcha, lesson learned!

Is there anything I can do at this point to reduce likelihood of twist that is feasible (i.e. carbon/graphite rods or something? Although I can't really find much info that those help with twist)? 

[Bizman62]

Having thicknessed the neck is a good start, further carving will release tensions if there are any. I'm tempted to advise you to carve the neck in steps using the faceting method and do one pair of facets a day so that if some warping is going to happen, you'd have some extra material to straighten the neck. Same thing if you're more familiar with carving the shape at the ends and connecting the points, leave some extra thickness. Shaping the neck before glueing the fingerboard has its cons but that will allow you to straighten the neck under the fretboard, should it warp. Plus, if it warps badly you wouldn't have to remove the fingerboard from a propeller.

[asgeirogm]

@Bizman62 I like the idea of the faceting method, I will definitely try your suggestion of a pair of facets a day. 

1 hour ago, Bizman62 said:

you'd have some extra material to straighten the neck

Do you mean that if the neck warps/twists after a pair of facets, there is (hopefully) still enough wood there to fix that facet to make it straight again? And then presumably after the final carve is done, I then straighten the top of the neck (under the fretboard)? or is it better to straighten the top of the neck 'every day' as I go? 

One thing I have going for me is that this wood used to be a table made by a furniture maker who had the table in his own apartment, so I would expect that it was well dry when he made the table, then it was sitting in his apartment probably for years (although with lacquer on it), then I sanded off the lacquer over a year ago and the wood was stranding in my (heated and dry) basement during that year, so I would hope and think that at least the wood should be pretty much as dry and stable as possible. 

[asgeirogm]

Bonus question: would carbon rods not help with the warping? 

[Prostheta]

No. Not at all. Reinforcement is purely added to counteract string tension, to provide additional stiffness against it. Twisting is a different mode of movement within a neck.

[Bizman62]

17 hours ago, asgeirogm said:

Do you mean that if the neck warps/twists after a pair of facets, there is (hopefully) still enough wood there to fix that facet to make it straight again? And then presumably after the final carve is done, I then straighten the top of the neck (under the fretboard)?

Exactly that. Carve the neck and check for warping every day. If it starts to look like a propeller blade, dump it. But if there's just a tiny twist when the neck is almost finished, you can try to straighten it.
There's a simple tool for checking for warping. I can't remember what it's called but it's simply two straight rods/slats/beams placed at the ends of the neck. Viewed from one end the beams should be aligned if the neck is straight. Time for a drawing: The red ones are the beams, the brown is your neck.

[asgeirogm]

@Bizman62 Perfect, thanks for clarifying Your diagram game is on point btw, kudos! 

[Prostheta]

Winding sticks!

https://www.finewoodworking.com/project-guides/shop-projects/handwork-winding-sticks-guarantee-accuracy

IIRC, they're named after the twist in wood which is called "wind". As in "wine-d and dine-d" rather than "fart".

[Bizman62]

Thanks for the name, @Prostheta! I knew I had heard it from the mouth of the beloved tattoo-headed luthier but trying to find the video where he used them seemed to be too much of an effort.

[Prostheta]

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[asgeirogm]

I started looking more at the where I accidentally routed a little into the headstock when planing the side profile (thicknessing) of the neck, and now it's clear to me that I might have an issue with short grain there. This is what it looks like when I put a straight edge on the back of the headstock. You can see a little gap:

This is essentially what is happening, where the blue "dot" is where I routed into the headstock, and the red line is now short grain:

Same concept as this one, just on a smaller scale:

The area where I have short grain is probably around 1 millimeter. Should I try to do something about this (or can I really do something that will make a difference if the headstock ever takes a heavy bump after a fall or something)?

My only idea would be to plane the bottom of the headstock and take a little into the neck, like shown here in yellow:

and then glue another veneer/plate/whatever-you-wanna-call-it on the headstock and into the neck a little, shown here in blue:

That kind of seems like a bad idea, and could potentially weaken the transition if anything, but if not then it doesn't seem like it would strengthen the weakest part all that much, there would be so little wood on top of the end of the short grain. This would also make the headstock a bit thick, probably like 17 mm

I would love some opinions on what to do here, i.e. do something or do nothing?

Edited November 1, 2021 by asgeirogm

[Charlie H 72]

I’m not an expert, by any means, so take this with a grain of salt. 
 

I think you should not worry so much about this neck, especially for your first build. Just treat it as a practice neck and keep rolling with it. If it happens to work out, that’s a great bonus. Make it a bolt-on so you can easily make a new one if things go south later on. Put a veneer on the face of the headstock if you need it for the nut to shift back a little. You may find that it warps while carving, but at least you’ll have gotten some carving practice. The fact that there’s a scarf joint there means it’s likely already stronger than a Gibson headstock.

Try stringing it up before you put finish on it though-that’s a long process you don’t need to go through only to find out you have a defective neck! 

[Bizman62]

I'm with @Charlie H 72, and like him I'm no expert either.

It took me a few looks before I found out what you meant with the short grain issue but the exaggerated version clarified that. We're talking about a millimetre here, both in length and depth. If structural integrity depended on that very millimetre, we should have strict plans for all sorts of wood as their strength varies. Brittle woods should be left thicker than stiff ones and we should have tuners of various lengths to match the thickness needed for the most commonly used woods. As this isn't the case I believe there's quite a lot of headroom.

A bottom side headstock plate is a classy feature. Further, you could even make a separate volute piece to strengthen the joint if you wish, either contrasting or matching. Carving the volute piece so that it minimizes the end grain area would make a very solid glue joint, perhaps even stronger than a volute carved from the actual neck.

[Prostheta]

Exactly. You've got to keep your eyes on the finish line, even if you get over it with the doors hanging off. You'll take a lot from seeing the process right through that you can take onboard.

[asgeirogm]

Thanks for good responses @Charlie H 72 @Bizman62 @Prostheta

Not doing things I care about as well as possible is not something that comes easy for me (i.e. letting go when it's not 'perfect'). So, I'm having a hard time not imagining the guitar falling down at some point and the headstock breaking exactly through the short grain and me kicking myself for not strenghtening the joint during the build as a repair will be much more of a hassle. If I try looking at it from a risk and cost/benefit analysis angle (is it obvious I'm an engineer? ), then I could make the case that the risk of the guitar falling down and breaking exactly through the short grain are small enough that the cost (time) makes it not worth tackling compared to the repair if it ever comes to to that. 

On the other hand, it would be a little fun working out the angles for making everything fit perfectly and adding a volute this way. 

I think I'll sleep on it. Sorry everyone for all the drivel

[Prostheta]

Don't worry about it.

If you have a look through Blackdog's builds, you'll see that he "pre-splined" his single-piece necks to reinforce the areas that have short grain. This is smart, as that's the repair one would do in the event of a breakage anyway. A lot of Gibson owners seem to agree that broken and repaired necks sound better than they originally did when unbroken, which is super weird. Perhaps splining beforehand might represent a similar "pre" improvement.

[Bizman62]

4 minutes ago, Prostheta said:

A lot of Gibson owners seem to agree that broken and repaired necks sound better than they originally did when unbroken, which is super weird. Perhaps splining beforehand might represent a similar "pre" improvement.

I have a theory about that and it may be totally wrong... Anyhow, a spline reinforced neck angle is most likely stiffer than the original. Now my theory is that in a simple angled headstock the nut flexes, counteracting the vibrations while a reinforced (splines or volute) angle won't give in, allowing the neck vibrate longer and stronger.

[asgeirogm]

2 hours ago, Prostheta said:

If you have a look through Blackdog's builds, you'll see that he "pre-splined" his single-piece necks to reinforce the areas that have short grain

I had decided not to do the volute anyway, but I like that idea, I have seen someone do that on here (maybe it was Blackdog) but I didn't think of it. Now the question becomes what wood to use for that, I don't really have much or any hardwood lying around (besides mahogany). I did just get a new bed and I kept the legs from the old one, which seem to be hardwood, at least I couldn't dent it with my fingernail, it seems very hard , so maybe that's a candidate

Edited November 4, 2021 by asgeirogm

[Bizman62]

Scandinavian bed legs often are some common local hardwood, either birch (pale like maple) or beech (light pinkish brown with tiny longitudinal dots all over). Both are stiff and strong.

[asgeirogm]

I realized I cannot use splines as I glued the cap on á couple of days ago, so I can't hide the splines