What next?

[henrim]

5 minutes ago, Bizman62 said:

Standard cheap tuners. The tuner housing doesn't come all the way through and there's a couple of mm's space when the bushing is screwed to the bottom. Obviously the bushing is thinner than the housing as it fits inside it.

Ok, I get it. There is actually no bushing there. If you replaced the washer with a bushing you wouldn’t need to have a stepped holes. Anyway, you found a way to fix the incomplete product.

[Bizman62]

2 hours ago, henrim said:

There is actually no bushing there.

Huh? All my tuners have the Capstan Bushing, the hollow bolt that tightens the tuner to the headstock. The two pin Fender tuners don't even have a securing screw on the back side as the pins keep the tuners from rotating. The only exception is my Aria bass where there's pressed ferrules instead of threaded bushings.

[henrim]

2 hours ago, Bizman62 said:

Huh? All my tuners have the Capstan Bushing, the hollow bolt that tightens the tuner to the headstock. The two pin Fender tuners don't even have a securing screw on the back side as the pins keep the tuners from rotating. The only exception is my Aria bass where there's pressed ferrules instead of threaded bushings.

In your solution the hollow bolt acts like a bushing. But if someone installs the same tuners in to an existing guitar with straight holes there is no bushing. In sense how bushings are generally used. Now it seems that the hollow bolt is called 'bushing' in the guitar world. And in some configurations it works as a bushing. Anyway the type of tuner you have should really come with bushing like the blue part in the attached picture. Your tuners came with a regular washer, which again could be used as a bushing if it was installed in to a recessed hole.

[Bizman62]

25 minutes ago, henrim said:

Now it seems that the hollow bolt is called 'bushing' in the guitar world.

So it seems, I learned to use that word from the original larger version of the picture which I found when searching for the names for the individual parts of a tuner.

[henrim]

I checked random tuners I found from the mystery box. Apparently I have two sets with just a washer (and a set without a collar which has a plastic bushing). I didn’t remember I have those. They are removed from guitars ages ago.

Anyway, the collar is 10 mm high on the ones with washers, so I think they work just fine as-is in a regular 10 mm peg hole. Without any additional bushings, that is.

[Bizman62]

This is the thing: The hollow bolt is 8 mm in diameter, the tuner housing is 10 mm. And the bolt is about 3 mm longer than the part of the housing that goes into the headstock.

Resulting this:

Are we talking apples to oranges in a language neither of us is a master of?

[henrim]

36 minutes ago, Bizman62 said:

Are we talking apples to oranges in a language neither of us is a master of?

Probably so  My original question was because I have not ever seen such solution as yours before. And while I understand why you did it, I now think that those tuners with a 10 mm high collar should work just fine without any bushings (or smaller bore) on the top side. See attached drawing. 

On the other hand I think a mechanically better tuner design has a separate bushing on the top. As visualized in my earlier post. And that is what for example Schaller tuners have.

Like said, there is nothing wrong with your solution. Even if it is not really needed it shouldn't cause any harm either  

[Bizman62]

10 hours ago, henrim said:

Even if it is not really needed it shouldn't cause any harm either

Exactly. The smaller hole on the top doesn't provide any significant support to the hollow bolt, the string capstan most likely is the place of any wobble.

I did that tiny detail just because it was easily doable.

Then again, as we all know tearout can be a problem with strongly figured wood. Often the tearout in the headstock is minor and mostly can be covered with the washer. With a smaller hole any minor damage will more likely stay in the hidden area, don't you think?

[Andyjr1515]

On 11/19/2023 at 5:10 PM, henrim said:

In your solution the hollow bolt acts like a bushing. But if someone installs the same tuners in to an existing guitar with straight holes there is no bushing

Yes - you are both right 

For folks reading this who have no idea what's being discussed, it is this thorny issue for builders, modders and repairers:

Tuner manufacturers use a variety of ways to support the spindle.  There is no standardisation of method or sizes, which is why when you are replacing tuners it is worth looking closely at the specs of the guitar or bass the tuners are for and the specs of the replacement tuners themselves.

But yes - in general = the methods commonly used to support the spindle are these:

 

1. A push-in bush: usually used with straight-sided holes (but not always - this one below in practical terms actually needs a larger diameter hole at the top of the headstock to allow the bush to be 'pressed' in!).  Often found on vintage guitars and basses :

 

2.  An externally threaded bush.  Think Fender.  Here, the bush screws into the tuner body and is a smaller diameter than the body cylinder it is screwing into.  As such, the hole needs to be stepped.  This is usually achieved by simply drilling a larger diameter from the back and smaller one from the top or by using a stepped drill.  It could also be achieved with a sleeve fitted at the top of a straight-sided hole, although I've never seen that in practice.

 

3.  An internally threaded bush.  These require straight-sided holes.  Here, the bush has the larger external diameter, is smooth-sided and uses a straight-sided hole.  These are often used on bass guitars

 

[Bizman62]

Thanks @Andyjr1515! I've never seen an internally threaded bush before but as your photo clearly shows such things do exist.

[henrim]

Well yes, as it appears bush(ing) is a homonym. I have always understood it as a simple bearing. But I see it doesn’t necessarily have to bear radial or axial load to be called a bush(ing).

And now that I checked Wikipedia I see it has even more meanings. And if you think about it, the Finnish word for bushing: “holkki” is probably even more ambiguous.
 

[Bizman62]

11 hours ago, henrim said:

“holkki” is probably even more ambiguous.

How so? For what I know and doublechecked it's a hollow object, simply a piece of tube. It may have additional properties like threading or flutes, or a collar. Or a flattened end like those used with filterless cigarettes but you may be too young to remember such things...

[henrim]

8 minutes ago, Bizman62 said:

How so?

Word that widely depends on the context. If you talk about motors it’s likely a liukulaakeri. If it’s question about electronics it’s some sort of insulator. What comes to cigarettes I always enjoyed my karvapersekameli’s without holkki. No smokes anymore though.

Edited November 23, 2023 by henrim

[Bizman62]

Ahh, I've never thought sliding bearings to be bushings or liukulaakeri being a synonym for holkki although now that you say it I can understand that. A quick search for liukulaakeri brought up 'liukulaakeriholkki' which to me tells that the sliding bearing is a special version of 'holkki' but that they both translate as 'bushing'.

Not a wasted day, learned something new!

And my apples were indeed oranges to you!

[Bizman62]

Another Saturday with not too much progress. This is the stage that takes the longest! Spot sanded the edges some and reapplied the oil mix. A few layers more and it's done, I guess... At home I then covered the cavities with copper tape, forgot to take it with me to the workshop but being such a minor task I could as well do it sitting beside the fireplace. It's -20° C outside...

Nice sheen but that has been wiped off... And I ran out of the mix so some chemical adventures are awaiting:

Copper

[ScottR]

That old pine certainly has some character, and you are taking advantage of it nicely.

SR

[Bizman62]

Isn't it annoying to find a minor flaw at the final stages of the process? I know that wooden plates look a million times better when the grain direction matches with the body. Actually I just praised how @ScottR had done that in his current build. Yet I found out that the control cover of my build is slanted. Looking further it seems that if I flipped it the copper side up the grain would match so at some point I must have lost the outside. Flipping it and turning it 180 degrees would not be that much of an issue although the shape isn't perfectly symmetrical. Peeling the tape off wouldn't be much of an effort either. But: There's a cross-grain veneer under the tape...

So now I'm pondering whether I should 1) level the current surface to remove the finish, 2) glue a cross grain veneer for strength, 3) attach the new bottom side to a supporting block and 4) remove the tape and veneer.

[henrim]

As always, when in doubt, paint it black. 

But yes, I think generally the grain orientation should match the flow. Not necessarily be an exact grain-to-grain match, but have the same flow. Visually support each other. Tell the same story. Of course in some cases a distinctively different grain orientation, like opposite or something like that, can work too. Although. personally I seldom even try that as I know I'm not good at it. Some people are, but it's a rare talent. If I have a highly figured piece of wood I usually combine it with tight grained uniform wood. 

[ScottR]

You have anything left from the headstock or neck that you could use to make a cover veneer or new cover? I typically make the cover out of a wood used elsewhere in the build as opposed to the body wood. That helps give a visual balance and reference to the other wood, and is easier to make look good than trying to use the same wood as the body. Unless you do an outstanding job with grain direction and matching, what you end up with looks like a bad repair job. Using wood from other areas in the build looks intentional.

SR

[Bizman62]

58 minutes ago, ScottR said:

You have anything left from the headstock

That very piece is made of the leftover piece of the headstock

[ScottR]

43 minutes ago, Bizman62 said:

That very piece is made of the leftover piece of the headstock

Oh.

SR

[Bizman62]

Oh well, I guess I can't live with the slanted figuration so flipping it around and adding some cross grain material for strength is on my to-do list. After all there's still a few millimetres of the birch left so after leveling there'd still be plenty more than the ½ mm that's used for furniture veneers.

[Bizman62]

The second last Saturday workshop this semester... So I took the plate under construction.

As we now have a thickness sander I decided to level it alongside with the sides of a fellow builder's acoustic sides:

Got it leveled and glued some cross grained scrap walnut to prevent cupping. That piece of foam rubber has proved to be invaluable in clamping delicate pieces! The spruce with copper tape remains will be sanded off in order to reveal the hopefully correctly orientated birch.

While waiting for the glue to dry I fitted the tuners. The earlets of the uppermost ones overlapped each other  so some filing was required to fit them straight.

There seemed to be a gap between the walnut pieces but sanding it to right thickness revealed that it actually was tight. Here fitted upside down.

Flipped it around and Oh Crap! the grain lines are still off!

So I decided to take the other resaw piece of the block that was salvaged from the trash bin. Also took my template and after careful aligning measured and marked the grain direction to it, transferring it to the new piece.

Cutting and sanding to dimensions I then dry fitted the new piece. After all the measuring I must have nudged it some in order to save enough material for another headstock veneer: It's still slanted! Arrgggh!

[ScottR]

On 12/3/2023 at 3:54 AM, Bizman62 said:

It's still slanted! Arrgggh!

One thing I've done in the past, is to tape a piece of tracing paper over the opening and trace the shape. then with a pencil, trace in all the grain lines from the surrounding wood and cross them over into the cover side of the line a little ways. then you can cut that out and lay it over your offcuts and turn it in all directions until you find the orientation that looks best. Then trace the outline and get to cutting.

SR

[Bizman62]

1 hour ago, ScottR said:

tape a piece of tracing paper over the opening and trace the shape. then with a pencil, trace in all the grain lines from the surrounding wood and cross them over into the cover side of the line a little ways. then you can cut that out and lay it over your offcuts and turn it in all directions until you find the orientation that looks best. Then trace the outline and get to cutting.

That might have worked better than laying the template over the body. The outlines of the body were partially drawn on the template and as can be seen the actual hole was aligned. But the cover template may not be in line with the hole template... And the grain on the rest of the piece makes almost a 90 degrees turn! That would definitely not match. Oh well, that's just a simple cover, I can redo it a million times or less. Matching it with the backplate of the headstock is also an option.