sadclevelandsports Posted April 14 Report Share Posted April 14 Hey guys, first build ever. Was hoping to outline some of my terrible errors so that no one makes the same mistakes. Special thanks to @Bizman62 @ADFinlayson @henrim for help in making my finish come together. I started this project with a basswood blank that I glued up and shaped using a JPX template that I found online. I purchased a separate burl top that I glued on after contouring. MISTAKE 1 - I only sanded down well one side of the drop top thinking the roughness of the other side would help the adhesion between drop top and basswood body. Now at a few spots, there is exposed jagged edges adjacent to the flat basswood. It's minor, but really aggravating. Next, I filled the voids with blue resin, which wasn't the original plan, but it went well, and I was mostly pleased. Afterwards, I started to rout the body... MISTAKE 2 - I didn't measure twice and cut once... I mistook the scale length line for my cut line, so I have a bigger trem rout than I should... Color was successfully added to the top and then... MISTAKE 3 - This one haunted me a few times. I had an upcoming surgery, and I wanted to spray burst the edges, so I put a layer of epoxy on the top to lock in the stain so I could pause my project. It was a huge mess, so I sanded it all down and reapplied the stain. I later found out that the epoxy hadn't been completely removed, so I had patchy areas where the stain wasnt evenly absorbed. I sanded off everything again, and did all staining and bursting by hand. I found out that burl eats epoxy deep, so I still had areas that weren't perfectly even in absorption, but it looks good enough for me. Finally, the body .. MISTAKE 4 - I am not going to attempt staining basswood again. Looks ugly, uneven, and oil based wood stain is a pain in the behind. I had to sand all the stain off, and I tried again with leather dye, but the damage has already been done. I am now in the process of spraying the back black. Afterwards, I will apply 2k. Thanks for following along on this mistake-filled adventure. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadclevelandsports Posted April 14 Author Report Share Posted April 14 Just as an aside, this post was more for beginners like myself, I'm sure these mistakes seem completely inane all of you experienced builders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bizman62 Posted April 14 Report Share Posted April 14 3 hours ago, sadclevelandsports said: I'm sure these mistakes seem completely inane all of you experienced builders. Bwaaahahahahaha! How do you think we've learned what we've transferred to you? Those who have a dedicated workshop can spread notes all over the place but we who have to pack our bags after every session to free the space for other users - be it a communal workshop or a basement room shared with all household chores - easily forget what would be the next step, not to mention the scratches caused by constant wrapping and unwrapping! Also, since building a guitar on a weekly basis usually takes at least one winter it's way too easy to forget the golden ideas you get/discover right after having finished the very step where that idea would have been utterly useful. One more thing: Most hobby builders are like boutique luthiers, they don't repeat their builds. Instead we tend to try all sorts of ideas, be they about materials, finishes, shapes, structures... Your turquoise epoxy is a perfect example of that. The greatest luthiers are not the ones who don't make mistakes, they're the ones who can turn their mistakes to unique features without sacrificing structural integrity. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henrim Posted April 14 Report Share Posted April 14 Someone said something along the lines; mistakes are a good way to learn. Learning to hide them makes you a master. 6 hours ago, sadclevelandsports said: MISTAKE 1 - I only sanded down well one side of the drop top thinking the roughness of the other side would help the adhesion between drop top and basswood body. For future reference, when using wood glue (Titebond I or whatever PVA glue) you actually want the contacting faces as smooth and level as you can do. The smoother the surface, the stronger and cleaner the bond. This is because the glue is meant to penetrate into the wood. This way when the glue hardens it forms hooks (sort of) inside the pieces and draws them together. In a good seam there is hardly any glue laying between the pieces. If epoxy is used to glue wood you may want the surfaces rougher, but there’s not really any wood in a guitar that you would want to glue with epoxy. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyjr1515 Posted April 14 Report Share Posted April 14 9 hours ago, sadclevelandsports said: Just as an aside, this post was more for beginners like myself, I'm sure these mistakes seem completely inane all of you experienced builders. Well, in my personal experience, experienced builders don't make any fewer or less silly mistakes...they just get better at fixing or hiding them... Nothing too terrible in your thread (I've done much worse) - and I LOVE that top colour 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadclevelandsports Posted April 14 Author Report Share Posted April 14 (edited) Post primer and paint. I'm not sure if I can sand after paint is applied? I have a couple very minor areas that aren't perfectly flat... Managed to hide some of my worst insults to this guitar Edited April 14 by sadclevelandsports Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bizman62 Posted April 14 Report Share Posted April 14 34 minutes ago, sadclevelandsports said: I'm not sure if I can sand after paint is applied? I have a couple very minor areas that aren't perfectly flat... If the areas are under the paint I wouldn't touch them. If you sand humps away and do a patch repaint you may well end up getting contours as the patch won't blend into the existing paint. Another potential issue with partial repainting is that you may not follow the exactly same painting direction and angle which causes the light shift differently on the surface. Then again you can sand it all matte after having fixed the problem spots and repaint the whole thing. But that will increase the overall thickness of the paint layer and as all coatings are basically liquid plastic you may end up having a nice wooden instrument inside a wrap that absorbs all vibrations. Sanding the entire bottom down to the primer would keep the coating thin but think twice if it's worth the effort. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadclevelandsports Posted April 14 Author Report Share Posted April 14 11 minutes ago, Bizman62 said: If the areas are under the paint I wouldn't touch them. If you sand humps away and do a patch repaint you may well end up getting contours as the patch won't blend into the existing paint. Another potential issue with partial repainting is that you may not follow the exactly same painting direction and angle which causes the light shift differently on the surface. Then again you can sand it all matte after having fixed the problem spots and repaint the whole thing. But that will increase the overall thickness of the paint layer and as all coatings are basically liquid plastic you may end up having a nice wooden instrument inside a wrap that absorbs all vibrations. Sanding the entire bottom down to the primer would keep the coating thin but think twice if it's worth the effort. I'd say it's 98% fine, I'm just being nitpicky. One other area I'd like to ask about is the border of the spray paint, can I sand it to be slightly more flush with the body wood, or is it better to just leave it alone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bizman62 Posted April 15 Report Share Posted April 15 11 hours ago, sadclevelandsports said: One other area I'd like to ask about is the border of the spray paint, can I sand it to be slightly more flush with the body wood, or is it better to just leave it alone? If it's a rough edged ridge left from masking tape I'd tame it down a bit. Very lightly just on the edge. And with very fine papers as you don't want any scratches on the paint. Will your next steps be masking the paint and apply some clearcoat on the top? And then sand the ridge off again and apply clear over the entire body, both sides? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadclevelandsports Posted April 16 Author Report Share Posted April 16 20 hours ago, Bizman62 said: If it's a rough edged ridge left from masking tape I'd tame it down a bit. Very lightly just on the edge. And with very fine papers as you don't want any scratches on the paint. Will your next steps be masking the paint and apply some clearcoat on the top? And then sand the ridge off again and apply clear over the entire body, both sides? I was actually just going to go in and clear coat the whole thing with a few coats of 2k. Is that wrong? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bizman62 Posted April 16 Report Share Posted April 16 2 hours ago, sadclevelandsports said: I was actually just going to go in and clear coat the whole thing with a few coats of 2k. Is that wrong? Nothing wrong with that. The main idea in my previous post was just that. The masking and coating the top only was to try to smoothen the ridge of the black and deal with a potential step. But there's easier ways, you can simply brush some clear on the rim of the top and then level the entire side. Let me draw it: 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadclevelandsports Posted April 16 Author Report Share Posted April 16 (edited) 6 hours ago, Bizman62 said: Nothing wrong with that. The main idea in my previous post was just that. The masking and coating the top only was to try to smoothen the ridge of the black and deal with a potential step. But there's easier ways, you can simply brush some clear on the rim of the top and then level the entire side. Let me draw it: Oh I see, that makes sense. Is there no risk of pulling off the paint by masking the black portion? Thanks for the diagram, wonderful illustration. Edited April 16 by sadclevelandsports Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bizman62 Posted April 16 Report Share Posted April 16 1 hour ago, sadclevelandsports said: Is there no risk of pulling off the paint by masking the black portion? There's always that risk. There's several sorts and qualities of tapes, though. A low tack tape might be safer for the fresh paint. Then again, using a brush to apply clearcoat on the rim of the top is fool proof. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADFinlayson Posted April 16 Report Share Posted April 16 I would not recommend taping over a colour coat, I have pulled paint off before doing that, the colour is always very delicate - it's not the end of the world if it's a solid colour because you can touch it up but if it's a cherry shader etc, you are never hiding that without stripping it all and doing it again. I tend to tape off the edge of the top if that is going to be natural, spray the colour coat on the back/side then pull the tape and tidy up edges before spraying clear. There is a bit of a ridge to begin with but if you spray a couple of coats, do some levelling and spray a couple more, the ridge should disappear. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bizman62 Posted April 17 Report Share Posted April 17 That man knows what he's talking about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadclevelandsports Posted April 25 Author Report Share Posted April 25 My ghetto spray rig haha... 4 coats of 2k applied, not sure how long I need to wait before sanding, but I was gonna give it a few days.. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADFinlayson Posted April 25 Report Share Posted April 25 Looks great! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asdrael Posted April 25 Report Share Posted April 25 Really like how it is turning out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadclevelandsports Posted April 25 Author Report Share Posted April 25 Thanks guys I do have a question, I'm not sure I have put enough clear or as I'm spraying it somewhat lightly without being super wet. Am I supposed to get it more wet, or is 4 layers of overlapped spray enough? It has a bit of texturing and is not flat on the surface so I was not sure.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bizman62 Posted April 26 Report Share Posted April 26 For 2k I was taught to spray a light coat and sand it level to matte, down to the bottom of the texturing. The second layer was advised to spray a thicker layer "wet on wet", meaning several layers with short enough intervals so that the poly doesn't build a skin but has solidified enough not to run. That is supposed to be the final layer, thick enough to be sanded level and polished. But if you let it dry before getting the desired thickness you'll have to let it dry properly and sand it level to matte again as at stage one. The idea of creating a thick layer is to allow leveling. Several thin layers are too easy to sand through to the previous layer which will cause "contour lines". As for the texture, spraying is a combination of distance, temperature and viscosity, plus pressure. If you spray thick paint from far away in a high temperature the paint droplets will partially dry before hitting the surface which will show as texture. Similarly if you spray thin paint from near in a lower temperature you will easily get runs. As you're using rattle cans you can't adjust the pressure. Pro painters often test the flow and coverage on a piece of cardboard to adjust to the current conditions before attacking the actual workpiece. That's their secret for getting a level surface without runs or orange peel texture. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADFinlayson Posted Friday at 08:55 AM Report Share Posted Friday at 08:55 AM if you're spraying lightly/not wet then you are way more likely to get orange peel, smaller amount of paint is drying faster and not levelling out on the surface. My experience with 2k is limited but I would spray one light coat and then spray wet coats after that - the downside of that is you're more likely to get a run, but runs can be scrape down before level sanding. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadclevelandsports Posted Friday at 10:36 PM Author Report Share Posted Friday at 10:36 PM Sad day, major screw ups all around. The first domino that fell and screwed me over was the fact that I sanded through the 2k and through the stain. Then, I did some patch work, but then the guitar stuck to some plastic while still wet with 2k, so now it has this marvelous texture. Finally, it fell off the ceiling and hit the floor. Lots of fun in the finishing stretch, wish I could just quit, but I've put too much time and energy to stop here.... Very sad.. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bizman62 Posted Saturday at 06:33 AM Report Share Posted Saturday at 06:33 AM 7 hours ago, sadclevelandsports said: Lots of fun in the finishing stretch, wish I could just quit, but I've put too much time and energy to stop here.... You do know that the finishing stretch takes about 80% of the time, don't you? That applies to first timers as well as to retiring life long professionals. Sanding through the clearcoat is very common as it's very hard to guesstimate the thickness when the lacquer is wet. A textured result makes it even harder. That's one of the several reasons to use a light hand when sanding, removing the dust both from the paper and the workpiece after every few strokes allows you to keep an eye on the surface before you go too far. The curing/drying time is another thing that keeps surprising builders. The surface is definitely dust and touch dry, yet it will copy the texture of anything that touches it for a quarter of an hour or even less. Wrapped loosely in a towel for taking it home from the workshop or just laying it on the sofa for the time to hang up your overcoat will create a nice canvas pattern... Every time, every build! Lastly, I had my most ambitious build over 2 m high. The cupboard door handle it was hanging from turned open and the guitar fell on the floor headstock first. Fortunately the finish I was using (Crimson Guitar Finishing Oil) can easily be patched so after fixing the bruises there was no evidence left from the accident. I'm sure other builders here have tons of similar stories. Yet we all have finished most of our builds, they very rarely end up trashed after an incident or three. As the modernized old Finnish saying tells, "Chin down and head towards new disappointments!" 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyjr1515 Posted yesterday at 06:57 AM Report Share Posted yesterday at 06:57 AM On 4/27/2024 at 7:33 AM, Bizman62 said: I'm sure other builders here have tons of similar stories. Yet we all have finished most of our builds, they very rarely end up trashed after an incident or three. As the modernized old Finnish saying tells, "Chin down and head towards new disappointments!" I would vouch ALL of us 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadclevelandsports Posted 17 hours ago Author Report Share Posted 17 hours ago On 4/27/2024 at 1:33 AM, Bizman62 said: As the modernized old Finnish saying tells, "Chin down and head towards new disappointments!" I am fully enamored with this saying 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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