Project Lucy-- my first

[erikbojerik]

Hey Greg, I wondered what had happened with this one. Lookin' good!

Yeah the scarf was a pain...but everything's easier the second time around.

[Cyclone]

After all that, it's back to the TOM and string-through after all.

Greg have you thought about going with the Gotoh 510 bridge or the Hipshot Babygrand. They are both different from the norm while still keeping that classy/classic look. I my self will be using the 510 on my current project.

[GregP]

I don't dig the Baby Grand for this particular guitar, though I love it in general.

The 510 is nice, but also Chrome. That was my big issue is that these things are all chrome rather than nickel.

At the end of the day, I've already purchased the TOM... it was cheap enough (at only $15 or whatnot, without the tailpiece) that it's no big loss (and I could use it on my dad's LP if I ever get to it), but I bought it with conscious thought and design, and I just seem to have forgotten that along the way.

Regarding the neck, the solution is so simple that a child could have come up with it... I feel like an idiot for not realizing how simple it was before:

Once I've drawn the neck on my template material (MDF), all I need to do is drill or clamp another piece of wood over top of it, along the line, and use THAT as a surrogate 'template' for routing a more precise edge.

Greg

[GregP]

Well it's about time, thought this guy became fire wood. 

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Nah, I'm just too timid to screw things up... I'm a bit of a 'perfectionist'. The level of craftsmanship I've put into it so far isn't even anything decent so I don't know why I keep thinking to myself that this guitar has got to be 'perfect'.

Probably mainly comes down to the fact that I'm broke and this is an expensive hobby for me and I can't go around just scrapping stuff.

Some day... when they finally give me a full-time contract....

Greg

[Mickguard]

Well it's about time, thought this guy became fire wood.

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Hey Greg, I was up until 2 am last night reading through this thread...really fascinating stuff...nice to see you're picking up your project again, after all that. I'm working on a similar construction idea, so you've helped me avoid a couple of pitfalls already.

You've give me a nice clamping idea --I'm going to be gluing the layers of the body together today (I'll start a project thread soon) and I need a way to get the center parts tights...then I saw your quandary with the warped maple -- I've got plenty of warped wood around here so why not take a piece of that, invert it so it rounds upward--by clamping down on the edges, it'll force the center down, giving me a nice tight bond there. Can't see why it won't work!

For routing edges or places where there isn't enough support for the base of the router--I solved that problem by taking some of the scrap I'd cut off when roughing the body shape and glued those together to form a little side rail. I can clamp that down where I need it, that way the router base always has two stable surfaces.

For the interior, I shaped a couple of pieces of wood so that the height is exactly the height of the edges. Once again, it provides stability to the router.

Also, if you're a perfectionist about the body, wait until it comes time to do your finish!

Speaking of perfectionism...since I am genetically incapable of perfectionist behavior, it helps me a lot to plan several projects in advance. That way I can relax a bit--I know if I screw up one, I can chalk it up as a learning experience for the next one (my current project is a 'trainer' project, where I'm learning a lot). Of course, I'm not using fancy wood here--what's the point in using high-grade wood if you're going to paint it?

[GregP]

Thanks for the reply, idch!

Glad you've found my journey (such as it is) an interesting read so far. And if I've helped even one person with even one idea, I guess I'm doing a good enough job so far.

I'm quite psyched to get right at it again. Tomorrow I plan to make my neck "template" and figure out what to do about the headstock....

It occurred to me that I didn't plane it down before gluing it up, so now I have to figure out a way to get it thin enough for the machine heads. <grumble>

Greg

[GregP]

Well, I actually did some work today, pathetic and small though it was. Still a bit hesitant to work directly on my neck, I opted to make a template first, which took (surprisingly) about an hour.

First thing I did was carefully draw out the dimensions on a piece of MDF. I made a centre-line and then drew spots for the nut and 12th frets. I measured in mm, and within a barely perceptible amount, the size of neck I wanted (based on my Godin LG) was 42 mm wide at the neck and 50 mm at the 12th fret. This is pretty close to the ES335, so we're within reasonable tolerances:

I found a piece of MDF that had a clean-looking edge, and double-checked against my straight-edge to make sure it was true. It was. So, that was going to serve as the "template for my template"... not in shape, but just to have a straight and reliable edge. Now, I don't at all trust my clamps, and when you're using a plunge router, the fewer things in the way, the better. Since I didn't have to worry about the MDF getting a hole or two in it, I just screwed the 'template' (for lack of a better word) onto the MDF with the drawing of the neck silhouette:

Then, following the same procedure for both edges, I hacked off most of the excess with a really horrible jigsaw (but it did the trick), and then used a flush-trim router bit and the 'surrogate template' to get rid of the excess and bring it to proper shape. I know this picture doesn't really show much, but believe me it's dead-on to the Godin:

So... that's a neck template. Now I still need to figure out what the hell to do with it next. But at least it's there when I need it.

Greg

[GregP]

Holy Hell,

It's like I can't do anything without wanting confirmation first... <grumble> My next project will be less complicated, that's for sure.

Here's the problem: I want to get the neck done or at least close to done, so that I can feel like I've gotten somewhere. I have almost nothing completed on it, but the following things still need to be done:

1. Rout a channel for the Hot Rod

2. Install the ebony face on the headstock

3. Put the inlays into the fretboard and headstock plate

4. Install binding on the neck and headstock.

5. Somehow make the headstock thinner.

I have no idea what order to do these things in... none of the guitar books are using things like veneered headstocks and binding, and some of the tutorials here and offsite are missing certain steps and or were sacrificed to the evil 'fullservesite' hosting gods.

Now, I've already made the scarf joint for the neck, so the neck so far still looks like this:

A few things I'm thinking, which I'd be forced to do if I didn't have you folks to ask:

1. I'd make the headstock thinner by taking material off the back rather than the front, leaving the front nice and flat for the ebony veneer to be glued on.

2. I'd make the truss rod channel in the maple first, and then just use a file or something to 'fix up' the part of the access slot that will get covered up by the ebony.

3. I'd like to inlay the MOP into the ebony before doing any gluing up, just in case I well and truly fark it up. Problem: that means waiting for DePaule to get back to me, which is taking a while... not sure if he's on vacation or something... maybe I should just phone.

4. I'd just rout a straight channel rather than drilling an access hole the way you would for a strat.

Now, the concerns:

1. The ebony isn't super-thin... is it better to thin down the headstock on the front in order to 'make room' for the ebony, or do I have the right idea by sticking with the already-flat surface?

2. It seems to look slicker and easier when the faceplate is installed before cutting the truss rod channel

3. All well and good to inlay the MOP first, but there's a chance I'll **** up the binding later, so is it more important to inlay and then lose the MOP to a botched neck (hard to salvage it, no?) or to ensure a good neck first (except fretting, of course) and then grace it with the MOP and use filler and whatnot to correct any potential screw-ups?

I know on Myka's site that he seems to glue up the necks first BEFORE inlaying... any other opinions on what's easier/more effective?

I'm starting to get annoyed... when I finally find time to work on my guitar, I sit down in front of it and go, "****, I think I need to do x, y, or z first," and then nothing gets done.

Greg

[Mickguard]

Holy Hell,

It's like I can't do anything without wanting confirmation first... <grumble>  My next project will be less complicated, that's for sure.

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Heh heh, hey Greg, you have an uncanny ability to make this look really easy and incredibly complicated all at the same time...

Why not go easy on yourself and ditch the inlays for now? Save them for the next guitar...okay, okay, I already figured out that's not your way...

Anyway, you're making me want to attempt to make my own neck for my next project...I'm still trying to figure out what you were doing with that template though...

[GregP]

My table saw isn't reliable. So, I had an option: use any old piece of wood as a straight-edge and then use the router to shape directly onto the neck; OR, make a template of the neck taper so that I could know for sure that it's the right size and so forth. It wasn't the only (or the easiest) way to skin the cat, but it suited the way I think-- I wanted to be able to -see- what my neck looks like before routing it to size.

Since my table saw isn't reliable, I DID have to use another piece of wood as a straight-edge guide, in combination with a router. So I used a surrogate template in order to make a real template.

Neck templates aren't at all uncommon, so it's not from out in left field.

I don't really want to ditch the inlays. I need fret markers of some sort, because I'm a bit of a hack as a guitarist. I like having a good visual cue for my fingers. <chuckle> So, if I'm going to inlay the fingerboard, I might as well inlay the headstock, too.

Greg

[GregP]

Oh, in other minor news, I got around to testing out some shaping tools on some scrap. Strangely enough, I'm less intimidated by hand-shaping the back of the neck than I am by the rest of the stuff mentioned in the above post. I can exert micro-control over a neck at least. Use a variety of tools of varying degrees of wood-removing power in order to do exactly what I want.

Greg

[Mickguard]

Oh, in other minor news, I got around to testing out some shaping tools on some scrap.  Strangely enough, I'm less intimidated by hand-shaping the back of the neck than I am by the rest of the stuff mentioned in the above post.  I can exert micro-control over a neck at least.  Use a variety of tools of varying degrees of wood-removing power in order to do exactly what I want.

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Seems to me that the most fun part of building your own neck would be shaping it by hand, even if it takes longer than using a machine.

I thought you were doing really fancy inlays, not just your usual dots ( I prefer dots myself)...

And I see what you're doing with the template now, I'd do it the same way--make a neck (template) before making the actual neck.

This is still the most fun project to follow, keep it up!

[GregP]

Thanks for the encouragement.

The fretboard inlays will be standard block inlays, like on the Lucille or certain Les Pauls. The headstock will be a bit fancier, but not lethally so.

As it turns out, Albert King had named his guitar Lucy, so I've switched mine. I won't change this thread's title, but the headstock will be inlayed with the name "Celia" instead of "Lucy". So, it'll be a small 'script' inlay for the guitar's name, plus some sort of basic logo... maybe just my initials or something.

I've discovered that I like screwing my templates into place. I don't have a lot of confidence in my available clamps, but when a template is screwed on, I feel like it's going to work exactly the way I want it to work. I was thinking, therefore, that I should do the outline of the neck first, before routing the channel-- that way I could put screw-holes into where the channel will be and not have to worry about it. But then it occurred to me that I could always screw the template to the back of the neck, instead, positioning the screws along the outsides, where the wood will eventually be removed as it's shaped into a 'C' shape.

Just thinking aloud... nothing new to see here....

A question, though, actually, now that I'm remembering-- as mentioned at the beginning of the thread, I plan to use a zero fret. How much extra wood should I allow between the zero fret and the nut so that when I install the fret it doesn't just get busted off? Ie. the fretboard as it is right now is a bit too long and there's a bit too much wood past the zero fret.

Jeez...

It's been so long since I ordered the fretboard that I don't even remember specifying zero fret anymore....

I might have to check it out and then order a new fretboard if it's not right....

Greg

[Bassisgreat]

HEY.... your avatar is giving me THE FINGER!!

Everything is looking great so far! I know EXACTLY what you mean about finally getting time to work on your guitar, then sitting in front of it and not knowing *** to do... very frustrating! I am finally about to get back on my first bass after several months of reading stuff like this, and trying to get a better idea of what needs to be done when. I'm not sure if I thought an instruction manual was going to appear before my eyes, but the sad fact is that it sure didn't! Places like this are invaluable for getting everything moving in one direction with confidence!

I am very impressed with what you've done so far, and this thread has probably helped several people, myself among them, to avoid some of the pitfalls that you ran into. Thanks for your honesty and including the 'not so perfect' stuff you've done AND the way you've fixed them!

Keep it up! Your guitar is going to be something very special when you finish it!

Edited March 23, 2005 by Bassisgreat

[Mickguard]

I am very impressed with what you've done so far, and this thread has probably helped several people, myself among them, to avoid some of the pitfalls that you ran into. Thanks for your honesty and including the 'not so perfect' stuff you've done AND the way you've fixed them!

Keep it up! Your guitar is going to be something very special when you finish it!

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Yeah, he has balls...I'm working on my first from-scratch body, but I'm making so many mistakes, I'm too ashamed to show in progress stuff here....I'll only put up progress pics if the final guitar ends up looking half decent...luckily there are guys like Greg here!

[Daniel Sorbera]

o cmon idch. Post some pics! We wanna see (and mabye help) if it's as bad as you say at least we will get a good laugh

[Mickguard]

o cmon idch.  Post some pics!  We wanna see (and mabye help) if it's as bad as you say at least we will get a good laugh

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Heh heh...I'm just trying to salvage the mess I made of the cap, then maybe I'll show some pics....

Come to think of it, hey, Godin, I don't remember you posting progress pics of YOUR first guitar?

Edited March 24, 2005 by idch

[GregP]

Cheers for the replies!

I went ahead and routed the channel without the headplate attached... it didn't seem like it'd be much work to just cut an access area on the heaplate after the fact. I had a few minor blips here and there, but all went fairly well.

After much deliberation (for such a small thing), I ended up choosing to use a router with a fence. The style of fence on this small router required that I move the router rather than pass the wood through, which was fine because if I would have had to pass the wood through, I would have run into problems with the peghead angle. After measuring up and drawing a line, I lined up the router with the centre line:

Problem #1: Since the router bit isn't an exactly 7/16" bit, I had to do multiple passes. 4 passes in total, since the router, bit, and maple all agreed that trying to do the whole depth at once would have been foolish. The biggest problem was that after I made the first pass, and adjusted the depth for the second pass, how the hell was I supposed to "re-insert" the bit into the slot perfectly? I could have used the plunge's guide and figured out how much to plunge, and that would have worked. Hindsight!

Then, for the second and fourth passes, I just moved it out a smidgen to bring it up to 7/16". Worked almost perfectly.

Problem #2: Although I had consciously chosen to rout the channel so that the adjustment nut was flush with the NUT nut, I realized after the fact that it would make access unecessarily tricky. I should have made the channel too short rather than too long. No HUGE deal, though-- I had some dowel lying around, so I put a plug at the end of the channel, which brought the nut to a more comfortable spot. See the dowel plug in the fuzzy picture below:

Well, it's not ideal, but it works.

Also checked on that zero fret thing. Looks like there's only a wee bit of wood beyond the fret slot before the 'guide nut'-- 3/16" or 5mm to be exact, according to the Koch plans. Before gluing up the fretboard and headstock, I'll have to figure out how to get it down to size without messing it up. Probably use a fine-toothed hacksaw and then sandpaper.

Greg

[selmac]

I love those spinsaws. sweet work I love it

[GregP]

I wasn't sure about the spinsaw before I got it-- I figured, for $99 CDN (it was on sale), worst case scenario I can use it for more mundane tasks as well as using its grinder attachment.

Boy was I wrong-- my 'shop' only has amateur-level tools in it anyhow, so I have nothing to compare it to, but:

1. The flex-shaft attachment turns it into a better rotary tool than my branded (ie. not just a generic) Dremel

2. It's a better router than the full-sized router I was using near the beginning of this thread

3. It comes with circle-cutting attachments which will be handy for something some day.

4. It comes with an angle grinder attachment, which I'm not sure yet if I'll ever use it for carving, but as mentioned in a different thread, the right disc can turn it into a beauty carving tool.

So, $99 turned out to be the bargain of the century. I haven't used it for ages yet, so I can't attest to the durability or life expectancy, but I'll keep you posted.

Greg

[GregP]

So...

I drew up the rough for my headstock shape. It's a fairly compact headstock-- somewhere in-between a PRS and a 90's Guild acoustic (which was the basis for the scale). This is my second attempt, as the first one is lost somewhere in limbo.

When I first drew the headstock up, I used those measurements to determine the size of the headstock on my neck blank. However, the new drawing is a bit too long for the amount of wood I left myself. So, I was left with 2 options:

1. Try to build up the headstock. Normally end-grain gluing is something to be religiously avoided, but this will be in a non-structural spot AND it will have an ebony headplate over it to add extra support. In other words, even without gluing the end-grain, it'd pretty much 'stay put' just by being glued to the headplate.

2. Revise the headstock drawing. THis is what I did, destructively... so there's no copy of the original "too big" one anymore. The picture below is 1/3 actual size, for anyone who cares to print it out and see it in scale. (don't worry, I wouldn't expect anyone to do so, I just mention it because you never know)

As you can see, it's not "finished" (on the right are just faint lines to give a quick visual reference), because the plan is to use surrogate templates again. Once I have a "half headstock" temporary template, I will use it to rout the main template in MDF. Why do this extra step? To ensure absolute symmetry. I trust this method much more than I trust my ability to hand-shape the whole thing and have it come out symmetrical.

The logo's not a done deal yet, either... that's just something I whipped up. Not even sure I'm going to HAVE a logo, as I suck at designing such things. I was thinking of calling my imaginary company "Bearclaw Guitars", with a claw/paw print logo, but at the end of the day it seemed a bit 'typical'.

Greg

[mledbetter]

The logo's not a done deal yet, either... that's just something I whipped up.  Not even sure I'm going to HAVE a logo, as I suck at designing such things.  I was thinking of calling my imaginary company "Bearclaw Guitars", with a claw/paw print logo, but at the end of the day it seemed a bit 'typical'.

Greg

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I like the headstock shape.. I don't even mind the logo but for design points.. the two together don't work as well as they could. Your headstock shape is pretty traditional and the GP is fairly modern.. Maybe a script style font, something a little more classic looking would be nice.. Are you going to try to inlay it? or just print some decals?

Awesome project. It's really coming along. Mine is finally underway but i just freehanded the whole thing and am designing it as I go. That's what happens when you ruin your body blank and can't bear to throw it away

[GregP]

Thanks for the comments. I agree about the logo... I didn't want to do TOO much scripty stuff since "Celia" will be in script; however, I think you're right.

I cut the template the other day, but didn't take any pictures. I'll post pictures when I rout outline of the neck. Glad you got yours on the go!

Greg

[GregP]

So...

2 screw-ups to report:

1. This actually 'happened' ages ago, but I didn't notice it until now. I was messing around with my parts (guitar parts) trying to decide what to do next, and I'm running my fingers across the fingerboard surface of the neckwood. I had used a scarf joint, but rather than the 'scarf at headstock' option, I read somewhere that scarf mid-neck offered better structure. Well, this whole time, I thought my surface was level, but not I can see that it's not. There's about a half-millimetre gap when I put the fingerboard over top, from where the scarf joint is and going toward the headstock.

When I press down, even lightly, there's positive contact with wood all the way through, which is why I never noticed before. But if I grip ONLY at the 'higher' side of the scarf joint and hold it up to the light, there it is.

I'm pretty sure that if I glued up, it'd hold, but then:

a. I'd always know I did a half-ass job

b. it may NOT hold, after all, and then I'd feel dumb

c. the curve induced, no matter how small, would have to be corrected with a thorough levelling of the frets.

It seems to me that I have to find a way to get that whole surface level, but the only thing I can think of is using adhesive spray to glue some sheets of sandpaper to a flat surface, and then 'have at it'.

2. the neck template that I thought was perfect is NOT perfect. First of all, it's just plain old too narrow at the neck.

Second, too late I realized that rather than just do the math, I had gotten my taper from an existing guitar. A guitar that is 24.75" scale. Celia will be 25" scale.

Now, the scale length may or may not be much of an issue. The neck would probably still be playable. But the width at the nut is too narrow, so I have to fix that anyhow. I'm tempted to just cut the neck itself, using a jig and a table-saw. If I had more confidence in the table saw itself, that's exactly what I'd do.

But no, it looks like I'm going to make another template instead. Maybe I'll use the table saw to make the template, to see if my low confidence in the equipment is ill-founded. It's only MDF, after all... <grumble>

Lessons learned:

1. Scarf joint at headstock next time, especially since I'm using an ebony laminate anyhow, which would lend enough strength to it.

2. use real-world objects as a basis and a reference point, but do the maths needed for YOUR guitar, don't just copy the maths that were used on another guitar, because you may have forgotten an important detail.

3. Buy a set of templates from GuitarbuildingTemplates.com next time <grin>. Even if you just use the main 'important' parts, you can still make your own body design. <grin>

Actually... if anyone's used those templates before, I'd like to hear about it. My dad's guitar will be either a PRS rip-off or an LP rip... so I'll likely order a set of his templates if they're accurate and work well.

Greg

[CudBucket]

Greg, thanks for sharing what you've learned. I'm not sure I'd stay away from the neck side scarf joint though. If a headstock laminate can provide enough strength to a headstock side scarf joint, then a fretboard, which is stiffer because it's thicker, can supply as much if not more strength to a neck side scarf.

You could end up with the same problem on a headstock side scarf joint as well and then, you'd experience the same problem under the headstock laminate as you did under the fretboard.

To be honest, I'm afraid of trying a scarf joint although, my next project (explorer, bolt on) will probably have one.

Great project!

Dave