Natural Binding

[daveq]

I have not done a natural binding type of fiinish before but am in the process of doing one now. I have three or four different brands/types of maksing tape. Some green 3M, one thin latex (I think it's latex) tape, some purple painters tape and the usualt blue painters tape.

I think the latex tape is the type that Dan Erlewine recommends but the stuff I have doesn't have much tack to it at all. It tends to want to fall off easily - even after pressing it on with a burnisher.

The green 3M tape has a good tack but when I tried it, it didn't seem to do very well in keeping the dye from seeping beneath it.

What tape do you use?

I'm guessing that I'm still going to have at least one spot (if not more) where I get a little bit of seepage. What's the best way to get rid of it? Once both the body and top have been dyed - I think sanding will be difficult since I'd likely remove some of the dye on the body while trying to get rid of the spot. I think I saw a stewmac tutorial where Dan Erlewine used a razor blade/scraper but I don't know if that's right or not? Maybe I'm wrong - does a good masking job always result in no problems at all?

Thanks,

Dave

[rhoads56]

I spray all the bits that DONT get stain (stain direct to wood), to get the natural binding. Use a thinner mix for the lacquer, give it ten minutes to dry, or whatever, and start staining

[Morben Guitars]

I've had the best luck by first spraying a coat or two of Sanding Sealer on the entire guitar. Then taping the sides of the guitar for the faux binding. Of all the tapes I've used, I've had the best results with simple "pinstriping" tape found at the auto parts store. The stuff to put fake pinstripes on your pimped out ride...

I cut the tape flush with the face and back of the guitar with a razor, then apply the dye. Once removed, you should have a very clean line, but no binding on back/top. This is done with a razor and a steady hand. It's not very difficult, you'll be surprised. The point of the sealer coat is to allow the dye to just scrape right off since it was never in the grain. Apply another sealer coat immeadiatly after you're done scraping. You'll get great results.

[daveq]

Thanks for those replies - I'm a little confused:

I spray all the bits that DONT get stain (stain direct to wood), to get the natural binding. Use a thinner mix for the lacquer, give it ten minutes to dry, or whatever, and start staining

Do you mean that you don't use the wipe on method - you spray your dye? Does that prevent the seepage that I'm talking about? I have a feeling I'm not understanding fully - sorry - if you could expand a bit on that - I'd really aprreciate it. I don't have a lot of finishing experience - up 'til now I've been painting and staining directly - nothing fancy.

The point of the sealer coat is to allow the dye to just scrape right off since it was never in the grain

If the whole guitar has had sanding sealer sprayed are you saying that the dye isn't going on the wood at any point of the guitar? In other words, you've sprayed the sealer, masked the sides of the maple top, then dyed everything? After that, spray again to cover the dye? Am I understanding you correctly?

Thanks again,

Dave

[rhoads56]

Turn you guitar back side up. Spray the back and edges. LEt it dry.

Turn it over, stain the raw wood on the front directly. The stain wont go into the edge grain, as there is lacquer there.

Use a thinned lacquer, so that it REALLY penetrates into the grain on the back and sides.

[daveq]

Ahh - OK, now I see. Thank you very much. I won't be able to do that on this one but I will certainly give that a try on my next one. Thanks for explaining it further.

Dave

[Morben Guitars]

Dave, Rhodes and I just have two different ways of finishing. I prefer to always apply dye to a clear sealer coat...this didn't make much sense to me until I tried it. When dying the wood directly, some parts will take on more dye than others risking a blotchy finish. Many people have great results doing this, but I've always found it easier to apply the sealer coat first. I'd suspect that if you're combining methods, you'd have inconsistencies in color on the top where there would be some overspray of sealer. In other words the edges of the guitar would have dye applied to the sealer - and towards the middle it would be applied to the wood. If you're going for a solid color, and you don't have much finishing experience, I strongly recommend spraing the entire body with the sanding sealer first - don't overcomplicate on your first attempt with natural binding.

If you're using a figured top, this method will work very well. Here's the rational...Figure in a wood is dependant upon the light going into the grain and coming back out with little or no refraction...this gives the 3-D effect when the viewing angle is changed. By applying dye directly to the grain - you're distrupting the light's ability to reflect back out. However if you imagine a tinted piece of glass lying on top of the wood - it will relect as if unfinished, however will still appear to have the color of the glass...this is why I "samwich" my color coats between clear coats. Keeping the grain free and clear of all saw dust (use compressed air) is esential to a good finish.

I posted a tutorial of this method while applying a sunburst finish a few weeks back..don't know how to point you to it however.. Hope that helps.

[daveq]

Sounds like I have two more things I can test out before finishing my next one. Thank you very much for sharing that information. I don't know if I'll fully understand until I actually try it but I think I know what you mean.

I have read somewhere that some people feel that maple tops should not be dyed directly. I remember asking about that here a while ago and the consensus from the responders was that it was not a good idea. I guess everyone has their own favorite ways of doing things. I have the advantage of not having much experience in finishing so I won't have any pre-built notions of what is right/wrong good/bad. I plan to experiment with the ideas you guys have given me and probably a few disasters of my own. Unfortunately, I felt the need to finish this guitar soon so I am beyond the point where I can realistically use either method. I will certainly try them out before the next guitar is finished though.

Thank you,

Dave

[Morben Guitars]

Unfortunately, I felt the need to finish this guitar soon so I am beyond the point where I can realistically use either method.

Did you already dye the guitar?

[daveq]

The top is dyed. I'm setting up for the body portion.

[rhoads56]

Staining figured wood directly onto the wood always makes the figuring stand out more, then if a colour is added in to the lacquer to get the same finished "color".

But, you cant just put the stain on directly, you have to rub it off as best you can, straight away. That removes all the additional stain that makes it look "washed out". Staining the lacquer, means the wood can reflect light a little easier, but you dont get quite as much "figure". Its six of one, half dozen of another. Both methods look great in the end. I do a combo of both usually, stain the timber with a light coat of stain to enhance the grain slightly, and then dial the colour in slowly with lacquer.

I dont like the stain black/dark, and sand back technique at all.

[Drak]

I dont like the stain black/dark, and sand back technique at all.

WOO-HOO!

I'm ALL about the stain black/sand back, I love it. Although it is becoming a little too popular these days...

But to the point, here's (I think) a third way.

In my spray finishing video by Dan Erlewine, here's how Dan does his natural bindiNG.

Starting with your sanded, natural Maple top, nothing applied to it yet.

He tapes off the entire top of the guitar except for the edge where you want the binding look. He uses a paper grocery bag cut to shape to cover 95% of the top, and uses tape to make the binding edge, so the entire top is covered except the binding part.

Then, he shoots 2 or 4 coats of clear lacquer out of an airbrush over the binding area.

Then he uses a water-based wipe-on dye to dye the body.

If you're doing a stain black/sand back job, you have to be careful not to go thru the clear when sanding back, that's why he uses 2-4 coats, to give him a bit of 'insurance' not to sand thru the clear-coated binding part as he's sanding back the black.

[MzI]

the way i did it cuz i had no clue as to what i was doing just makin up stuff as i went along, i took 3m blue painters tape i got from the sherman williams paint store, i stained the back, after i taped off my binding area, let it dry the regular time, took the tape off, then retaped it so i had an edge to dye the top against, (this was before running a round over on the top edge) i dyed the top took the tape off and that was it

very simple i wiped on the stain and the dye by hand, didnt use sanding sealer no laquer pre coats, i did fill the grain on the mahogany back, it came out pretty well there was only a couple spots where the stain came through mainly cuz i think the tape wasnt straight enough easy fix tho

if you wanna see some pics lemme kno

MzI

[daveq]

Yes ! Let's see the pics! I love pics !!! That's the way I ended up doing mine. The latex tape ended up pulling away in a couple of sopts so I had to redo a few areas. I won't be using that tape again - or that method probably.

[MzI]

heres some pics

1

2

3

there ya go

MzI

[ISUBARUI]

How would electrical tape work for masking off the natural binding area? It has a really thick adhesive that i assume would keep the dye out well.

[Drak]

Electrical tape has probably the worst 'grip' of any tape I can think of.

It's used for insulating, not actually 'taping'.

There's much, much better out there.

[ISUBARUI]

It might not adhere to the wood with a strong bond "grip" but it does insulate very well it forms a tight uniform bond. You dont need a strong grip when staining to create a natural binding do you just a tight uniform seal right?

[Drak]

It's a bad idea.

Let it go and try again.

[JohnJohn]

Electrical tape has probably the worst 'grip' of any tape I can think of.

It's used for insulating, not actually 'taping'.

There's much, much better out there.

The adhesive on electrical tape can peel fairly easily on some surfaces,(been there ),and leaves a nasty gummy mess.

Don't risk it use something else.

[frank falbo]

Electrical tape adhesive will also react to many stains and finishes, and its black. Its a lost cause.

I did it like some of you with a little difference. I like to rub stain into the maple, and I did a darker forest green first, then sand back, then a custom mix of the forest green with a little emerald green for the final stain. Maple is dense enough that the stain only penetrates about 1/64". So I stained the top before I finished shaping the sides. They were about 1/8" oversized. So when I sanded the sides it revealed fresh white maple. Then I radiused the edge with a razor blade, not sandpaper. It left a perfect line between finished and unfinished. Sandpaper would've driven little green colored sawdust particles into the clean maple part, and blurred the line, or worse. Plus I could control the exact size and taper of the line.

I wasn't a slave to bending masking tape, nor would I be let down by some tape lifting and stain bleeding. There was one spot where the green leaked into a pore, so it looked like a fine green hair about 1/8" long. I just scraped that out with the edge of a razor blade and let the lacquer fill it in, and you can't tell. I wouldn't do it with figured cherry or koa or anything with big pores.

You really could do the same thing with the "tinted clear" method. You could seal the whole top (still oversized) and then shoot the colored clear. Then finish sizing the sides and radiusing the top in the same way. I just don't like trusting tape edges to give me a clean line. I did just recently see 1/8" masking tape in LMI though, and I'll probably try it the next time I want to do natural binding. The tape needs to be really pliable, and the smaller width helps, like the guy who used auto pinstriping.