JoryNad Posted April 25, 2004 Report Share Posted April 25, 2004 k so i know iv made any posts on this project but i have some other questions, here i go... k so the guitar im building is the jack white airline guitar There it is, beauty ain't it, well the not solid body, its hollow and made of two'shells' made of fiber glass, so i was wondering if anyone had any ideas on how to mould this baby properly, my idea is to have the body cut out in some cheap wood, i.e. MDF, and then after routing aand neck pocketing proceed to lay piberglass on it then play fiber glass on the inside of this oe ply shell so the original shape is not altered grossly....a bit complicated i know for my first project but i have to finish now aswell any one know where i can get some 1/2 ' vinyl binding???? thanks guys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Posted April 25, 2004 Report Share Posted April 25, 2004 my dad made me a fiber glass boat which was cool, I'll ask him all about it in the morning and get you a reply! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoryNad Posted April 25, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 25, 2004 thanks alot! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoryNad Posted April 25, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 25, 2004 does no one know of where i can find 1/2 inch white vinyl binding? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YDoesGodMockMeSo Posted April 25, 2004 Report Share Posted April 25, 2004 i know theres that saying 'whatever floats your boat' ..or 'to each his own' but god..thats just horrid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sinner16 Posted April 26, 2004 Report Share Posted April 26, 2004 Jory .... I'm no expert on molding fiberglass ... however this site has a lot of useful info on fiberglass. Their forum is kind of like PG ... but it deals with composites. I know you will have to take into consideration separation points in the mold, reinforcement points along the body. I think your approach of making many layers of glass and then routing will be highly difficult. The weight will be on the heavy side, the amount of layers would be very time consuming. Also, routing into fiberglass may give you unwanted results .... chipping. This sit has some good info http://www.fibreglast.net Are you trying to make this a solid body ? If so, you may want to look into using a 2 part casting resin rather than fiberglass. From my knowledge... the fiberglass basically reinforces the substrate or resin and gives it strength. Casting resin also has drawbacks too.... such as air pockets, curing time and temp. The vapors are not good on the lungs. Also, "pot life" (the amount of time after mixing the 2 parts together till the time it starts to gel or cure) will be a huge part. You would first start off with a resin that has a long pot life... so you have time to work out any problems as they arise. Don't be expect it to come out perfect the first 3 or 4 times. It's not like working w/ wood. There are several ways to building a body like this. Check out that site.. they have a glossary of terms and how too's... Hope this helps out.. good luck.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoryNad Posted April 26, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 26, 2004 it wil be hollow body, like wioth two shells then they meet at the binding Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sinner16 Posted April 26, 2004 Report Share Posted April 26, 2004 After looking at the picture again.... the curves around the body are going to be hard to duplicate. Fiberglass will drape around a corner ... it's the air pockets that get trapped in-between that will cause havoc on a project like this. I would suggest taking a look at some of the links on that fiberglast site I mentioned before .... like this http://www.fibreglast.net/contentpages-mol...uction-170.html Also, if your really serious about casting molds and fiberglass projects .... a good book is " Fiberglass & Composite Materials by Forbes Aird" . It's pretty good reading in layman's terms. I boughta different book about composites and fiberglass and I swear .. I thought I needed a PhD. in Chemistry to understand what the author was talking about. This book is really straightforward and is only about 150 pages. A lot of good info. I looked into casting my own bodies at one time... also making carbon fiber pick guards and stuff .... I just never had the time or shop to try it. IMO I also would start off with a project smaller than a guitar at first. Just to get enough practice / experience with fiberglass and resin. Temperature, humidity, and type of resin all can make or literally break how your project turns out. Cost wise, it would be cheaper get your experience on a small project say like a hum bucker pickup cover... I know I could mold, cast, spill some resin on the floor, and make about 10 -14 pick up covers (that I will throw away in the long run) and still cost less then the material for 1 body. Basically I would get 10-14 chances to get the steps and process down with a "small" item.. rather than a one shot deal with 1 body. That's just my opinion..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay5 Posted April 26, 2004 Report Share Posted April 26, 2004 I have worked with fiberglass before. To do a small project like this and do it right you are going to spend a ton of money! You need the actual material, a res/hardener, somthing to make your mold, a release agent for the mold and other stuff for finishing and what not. Even if you used the cheapest material ('boat cloth') you would still be spending a lot, not to mention the trial and error cost you would incur. If I remember correctly the resoglass airlines were designed to provide a guitar that could be built cheaper than a traditional wood instrument but in the end it turned out to be much more costly working with the fiberglass. I would HIGHLY reccomend taking the wood approach, as I am doing on my airline copy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maher Posted April 26, 2004 Report Share Posted April 26, 2004 I can honestly say that one of the ugliest guitars ive ever laid my eyes upon, along with the wangcaster of course, But each to their own i suppose Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Posted April 26, 2004 Report Share Posted April 26, 2004 right, I talked to my dad and got some basic stuff about it, but I will ask him more Q's later. how ever smooth your mold is, thats how smooth your final product will come out. this means the mold will have to be super smooth, you'll have to buff it alot. to get the colour, you paint a gel in, then put fiber glass tissue inand make sure its extremly flat, then its a case of building it up. This is all I've have got so far (my dad is busy at the moment) but I'll ask him as many questions on the subject as I can think of! Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyB7539 Posted April 26, 2004 Report Share Posted April 26, 2004 I have worked with fiberglass before. To do a small project like this and do it right you are going to spend a ton of money! You need the actual material, a res/hardener, somthing to make your mold, a release agent for the mold and other stuff for finishing and what not. Even if you used the cheapest material ('boat cloth') you would still be spending a lot, not to mention the trial and error cost you would incur. If I remember correctly the resoglass airlines were designed to provide a guitar that could be built cheaper than a traditional wood instrument but in the end it turned out to be much more costly working with the fiberglass. I would HIGHLY reccomend taking the wood approach, as I am doing on my airline copy. I absolutely agree here. I do car audio professionally and work with fiberglass quite a bit. Between making the molds, the materials, etc. You will probably spend $400-$500 just to make the body... not to mention the time... it's not very feasable to do this just to make one body... now if you are going to reuse the molds and make a lot of them, then I could probably see the justification.. quick tutorial though... Materials: 1 Gallon good tooling resin 1 Pint MEKP 8 yards 1.5 oz. chop mat 1 yard woven mat some rope carnuba wax 2 part expanding foam wood (mdf perferably no less than 1/2") a few very large pieces of 3" (or better) plastic strips at least 1/8" thick. These will be used to keep the 2 part expanding foam from expanding out of the mold... LOTS of really cheap paintbrushes rubber gloves rage gold bondo spray bondo gelcoat First you have to get a basic idea of how you want the mold to look... Trace the pattern and cut it out on a piece of MDF. Then cut a square about an inch larger than the pattern and staple the plastic strip completely around the larger piece of wood and screw the pattern in the center of it... NOW here is where you could possibly do this in one of 2 ways... If there are no belly cuts, arm cuts etc, you could probably just cut a few patterns with a router and staple and glue them together until they are the width that you need the pattern to be and wrap them with plastic wrap, being careful NOT to overlap because it will show up in the mold, OR you could mix some 2 part expanding foam and pour it into the form and when it expands and dries, using an electric knife or razor blades and sandpaper, cut the foam down to the desired shape... This is particularly useful if you have belly cuts or want belly cuts... Now whichever way you chose to get your desired mold, now is the time to lay the chopmat and fiberglass to make your mold... Liberally rub the carnuba wax over everything that you don't want the fiberglass to stick to, and believe me the only thing that it won't stick to is plastic, and cut the chop mat in to small workable squares. Now mix the fiberglass in 8 ounce portions according to the manufactures directions. Mix the glass to hot, and you could shrink it to much and cause warping of your mold, or it could become too brittle to even use, or mix it too cold and risk it taking until next Christmas to dry. Also the reason to mix it in such small portions is that you only get a few minutes of working time with the glass until it starts to set. Small portions means less waste. Lay some mat on the mold you made and dab at it with the resin soaked paintbrush Get all the airbubbles that you can possibly get and work your way around the mold at least two times with the chop mat...Let the mold dry when you finish.. Next carefully seperate the mold after at least a day of drying time. Take some bondo and fix any imperfections in the mold and sand it smooth... Now you should have a mold of the piece you are trying to build, so first wipe down the mold liberally with the carnuba wax or mold release agent, and lay in evenly the woven mat and soak completely with resin... Let it dry. Once dry, lay in some rope to add strength to the structure and resin in sqaures of chop mat over the rope and the dried first layer... add at least 5 layers to it...7 is the perfered number... let it sit for about a week to properly cure and release it from the mold. You should now have a very nice looking fiberglass piece that you will be able to prime and paint to your liking... if you make a really smooth mold, you could also add a gelcoat color to the mold prior to putting in the woven mat and when you pull out the piece you molded it will also be the color you want to have... As for half inch vinyl, you may want to talk to upholstery shops or just make your own... That's all for now... Good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoryNad Posted April 26, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 26, 2004 so basically what i am hearing is it will not be possible to simply buy fiber glass in the woven form, lay it down on the body, apply the resin or whatever (i will do some research) and then cut it off afterwards?.....if not any ideas on other composite materials, i really want this to be hollow and not wood..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoryNad Posted April 27, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 27, 2004 anyone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sinner16 Posted April 27, 2004 Report Share Posted April 27, 2004 Jory, your approach to putting the fiberglass directly to the body will give you a reverse copy of what you are looking for. Doing this will work as making your mold..... Think of how a special make up artist starts a mask. I'm sure you have seen behind the scenes of horror movies... or the making of Michael Jackson's Thriller ... There is a scene where MJ is getting white paste similar to plaster put all over his face. They even put straws up his nose so he could breathe .... That basically gives you the shape ... but reversed. Once the plaster cured and hardened on MJ head.... they then removed it. That gave the a perfect imprint of his face. Then they pour latex into the mold of his face... and a few hours later .... Bam.... a latex mask of MJ face. You would be doing the same thing by applying fiberglass to the body( it would need to be done in 2 pieces front and back)..... let it cure ... and then removing it. The fiberglass you remove will be your mold. You would then apply fiberglass to the mold, let it cure, and then BANG!!! You will have half a body made out of fiberglass. You can only mold one side at a time by the way. Applying fiberglass to the body directly and then hoping to sand it smooth is a great concept ..... However..... It will take you much longer to try and sand the stranded glass flat. And to get a quality finish ... I just don't see that happening. There is a lot .. and I mean a lot more to it then just getting some glass mat and slapping it on a body and Boom you have a fiberglass guitar. As Tony said... you need release agents for the mold, a constant eye on the temp and humidity, time and patience. Also, I would not use the actual guitar to mold off of. There is way to much opportunity of error. Especially if this is you first project. You wouldn't want to throw away $500 in fiberglass materials... as well as your original guitar. This is just my $0.02. Sorry about the horror make-up analogy ... it's the best I could come up with to give you the idea ... there are alot of other instances where the idea can apply .... I work for a large manufacturer of jetted / whirlpool tubs and that's where my knowledge comes into play. Hope I made some kind of sense Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoryNad Posted April 27, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 27, 2004 does it ever make sense! wow thanks alot...well if you work with molding are there any other composite materials you know of...oh and i wouldn't be using the real guitar just a "body" made of MDF (cheap and soft wood) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sinner16 Posted April 30, 2004 Report Share Posted April 30, 2004 Jory, I let this post go for a day or so to see if anyone had any ideas .... To my knowledge it's not really a matter of the materials that is concerned. They all basically all FRP's (fiber reinforced plastic) work the same way in a nutshell pf being applied. You major concern is the "mold" you are making the finished product from. In this case a guitar body. If you have a copy made from MDF, any material applied to the outside of the MDF will give you an reversed imprint of what you are looking for. To duplicate a body like this, you will need to make a what I will call a 2 phase mold process. Phase one is you MDF copy of the original since you do not want to risk damaging the original ...or "master" as they call it in FRP land. LOL. Your second phase can be accomplished 2 ways. 1. apply a "wet lay-up" of fiberglass to the MDF copy, let it cure, and then remove it. Now the fiberglass part you just removed becomes your "new" mold. You would then do the same as before .... but this time you are "lining" the inside of the mold with the fiberglass and resin. Once this has cured ...you will remove it and that is you "half of body". You may need to do a few lay-ups or linings to get the proper thickness that you want. Option # 2 ..which may be a little more $$ and take a little longer ....would be to take your MDF copy and make a plaster mold of half the body. Plaster will work well as a mold and it can be used more than once if need be. However it is cumbersome to have... more $$$ and for a one time production may be over kill. Oh yeah basically you would wind up w/ 2 large plaster molds with the imprint of the top side of the body on one and the backside on the other. Then you would line the plaster mold w/ your fiberglass.... Of course I am skipping a lot of important points like mold release, adding stiffening strips in stress areas (neck pocket, bridge area) and things like that.... A book on FRP's would probably give you the best idea on how to construct everything and go into a lot more detail. I look at is as almost the same as baking a cake. You have to follow all the steps exactly in order for it co come out right. If you don't butter up you cake pan ... you have a hell of a time getting it out ... Same for fiberglass molds. The company I work for specializes in jetted tubs. These are made with an acrylic sheet w/ Fglass sprayed on the back. A quick view of the process is .. The sheet of acrylic is placed over a large aluminum mold (the same shape of the tub) The mold has hundreds of tiny pin hole in the surface. The sheet of acrylic is placed on a machine that hovers it over the mold. The sheet of acrylic is the heated to a specific temperature .... basically when it starts to sage in the middle. Once the temp is right, the sheet is lowered into the mold. A vacuumed pump then turns on and the tiny pinholes suck the sheet down into the mold. About 20 seconds later the acrylic is cooled.. and boom .. you have the acrylic tub formed. It is the sent to the "chop shop" to be glassed. Operators use a "chop" gun to apply the strands of glass while a nozzle on the gun sprays the resin. Sorry for the long reply... but I have a tendency to do that.LOL. As stated before.... Forbes Aird (author) wrote a very good soft cover book on all of this called "Fiberglass & Composite Materials". I highly recommend it if you are serious about a project like this. I only say that because there are a lot of small tips and theory explained. Theory that can be put into use. Good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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