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As much as I think the box is a good idea, and I know I could get used to it, it doesn't seem natural me. I would strongly recommend also making a model that fits inside a control cavity when you have a final product. If you send it to a guitar maker, would they use the box also? If it's for something like that, ease of installation isn't an issue.

I'd just prefer not having a box, and I'm sure lots of other people feel the same way, even though in a lot of cases, it's a good idea.

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Hello again...just looking in after moving to my island...getting a bit chilly down here! Good to see the thread continues the tradition of long threads! Still...the computer didn't survive the mov

Excellent... This will be great, and I hadn't thought about that but the 4 ohm coils would take half the time and be easier to wind....alowing the use of quick epoxy like this...hope you wore rubbe

I think functionality should be the first concern. Get a few prototypes working so that you can make sure that it's consistent from one unit to the next. When/if you market it to a guitar or electronics company, THEY can worry about making it small later. Chances are good that they'd want to buy the intellectual property and take it from there.

Otherwise, you're left developing it yourself, in which case I agree that a slightly more elegant enclosure would be a selling feature.

I'm very excited for you!

Greg

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OK...Mr Vai...I've said it before, I'll say it again...Internal installation would always be an option, just throw out the box and pickup the router. I still think the control is going to work better there and installations going to be a lot easier. Remember Sustainiac I believe have to install it for you and Fernandes aftermarket service is poor. I wouldn't want to do much of either. If it was bought out by someone you may find it's only available on that company's guitars (as Fernandes were for ages).

Thanks GregP it will be exciting if I don't get ripped off! That's right but to be acceptable, you have to sell more than the idea, but the whole concept so the look and feel of it is important...and it's fun to dream!

I don't know why I have so much trouble posting pictures...crap old slow computer I guess.

I was thinking that this box caper might be theraputic so I'll give it more of a go.

Here are the exact dimensions of the various parts.

Circuit board 60x45x10mm.

Battery in holder 55x30x20mm.

Control area 15mm behind controls.

Allow extra room for fitting baseplate and thickness of the box and that's all you need to know.

Now, If you don't have the 3d computer savvy of these guys, you can do it the oldfashioned way. Make up some squares to the above dimensions...get a lump of modelling clay...and mold it over your box shapes. As long as these shapes don't stick out of the clay and there's enough to make something solid, anything goes!

That's what I'll be doing cause if I've got something good I coould even use the thing as a model to cast out of epoxy. Not only that, I've got a 2 y.o. so he can have the leftovers. Actually this is how they design cars in the end, despite all the computer graphic power you could hope for. There is nothing like seeing the thing in front of you, handling it and trying the shape out on your guitar.

There are various ways of arranging the stuff the smallest I got it is 75mm square but it's probably end up being 25mm (1") thick all the way along the top edge...see what configurations you can come up with...go wild and have fun

psw

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Cool, great news psw. Would love to see this completed and working soon. I'd be really pleased for you. You are right about the security though, we all need to keep this very secret. I guess it is a decision only you can make about closing this thread and continuing in private. If you feel the secrets are at risk at all, then I would recommend doing what you thought of (closing thread).

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I think we'll just continue for now. The collaboration has helped create something much better than I had originally set out to do so let's make it the best we can, hey. My appologies for ranting back there :D .

After moving my components around this way and that, I'm now thinking...Battery running lengthways, control knob at front end and circuit board to the side. This makes a high (25mm) edge from the player's side then and slopes down and back towards the jack (if you get the idea). This makes the total area about 75mm sq.

onelastgoodbye pointed out by illustrating my original scheme that, with the floyd, it actually hung out over the back of the guitar. As I don't have a floyd guitar, I didn't think of that. I'm hoping that this idea will be small enough...and look good

Anyone else come up with anything?

psw

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Ok, i'll see what i can do. The one thing i don't understand is the last sentence:

...to about 45mm back from the bridge end.

Do you mean that it reaches its highest (2mm) at 45mm further from the bridge?

It would be great if you could make a hand-drawn pic of what you want (or propose) and scan it...

By the way, the body of my guitar only extends to about 100mm distance from the bridge, so a 110mm box would be too big.

About closing the thread, if you think that you've given clues about how the system works anywhere in this thread (and i don't think you did), you could close it down. Or you could simply edit your potentially dangerous posts, which i think would be better.

...

emre

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maybe its a dumb idea and i didnt read this thread for a while so i might be totally off on this but heres what i tought,

how about having the knob on the cavity and the rest of the circuit/board on a box that you could clip on your guitar strap, just like a wireless system ?

:D

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Hello swirlslave...good to have you join us...(great name by the way!)

To answer your question...no that would be impractical, you'd have to have a multicore shielded cable to the pot, another from the signal pickup, and another to the driver....even more for the on/off switch and reversal. Last time I thought of just having a separate control module I got 10 wires, then you got the signal and drivers which all have to be kept separate from eachother!.

I've noticed that we've past 500 posts and 34 pages....amazing.

What's also amazing are the creative people out there.

As I said, onelastgoodbye has come up with some interesting designs and PM'ed me some more. He said I can post them if I like so tell us what you think of these styles:

At first I suggested '50's car style, and he came up with this:

box_rev1.jpg

and here's a few more:

black and silver

rear view...dig those fins

here's one with the hood flipped

oop's too long

Nice but that was with the long dimensions I first gave. The next one's are a little shorter

This one, I suggested a corvette style scoop look, he came back with:

box_rev7.jpg

here's some more like this:

black and silver

silver tailpiece effect

Remember, he's working from my ideas, and he's done a fantasic job of interpreting them. I do hope they don't take too much time and effort.

onelastgoodbye is working on some more, since I've posted the component sizes he'll have more options. I specified the controls followed by the battery which would be about 20mm high, the circuitboard starts here (45mm from the front - thats what I mean't emre) and can slope down. The one with fins I think I said was 110mm long. Turning the board around you get about 90mm long. Tell us what you think.

Meanwhile, I've been working on the circuit. I'm thinking the box higer at the bottom now, with the battery running along that edge and the controls as is (I like the recess andwould make the push knob mechanism invisible...nice) That makes the thing a little wider but lot's shorter say 85mm wide by 80mm long. It makes an 'asymetric bulge' with the scoop effect running down in a kind of S shape from the control knob, back and down.

Something like this badly drawn box:

scoopbox1.gif

Anyway, exciting to see something new appearing...great stuff

psw

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Well, i've done a simple modeling of my guitar (it doesn't even have a neck :D ), together with the driver...

002_01.jpg

Now i can start working on the box. Thanks for the drawing psw, it now gives me an idea of what you want. By the way, it's not badly drawn at all :D

Tim's surely been working hard, good job B)

Using car designs is really a good idea, psw. However, i think that it shouldn't be an old looking design. This is a completely new device, not a vintage item. Maybe it needs the look of a modern car :D

Will the box be chrome as Tim modeled? I think there should be two versions, chrome and black. My guitar is completely black (though i modeled it blue), and a chrome looking box wouldn't look good on it.

...

emre

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wow... i hope you can get this thing marketed. im sure MANY people would be into this thing. hell id probly buy one for no other reason than trying it out. i really like the silver design and especially on the red guitar. one other thing you could do is make it available in red LEDs or make it easy to change them out to whatever colors someone would want. i dont know if thats feasible (sp) or mentioned before (dont have time to read all of this thread lol). well good luck!

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That's beautiful emre...I love the blue LED's.

Thats just as I described the 5 LED idea however in reality the driver has two sides to them. It is only on one side that lights can be housed. I had been considering one side silver, one side black with the LED's. I'd definitely use blue but their a little expensive in small quantities at a normal store...ok if i order them on line I believe. The ones I've got are red 3mm or the ones used in mobile phone buttons both are posibilities.

You've done well, you know that onelastgoodbye got his Jem guitar from somewhere else and is adding the box to it so that's a bit of work you've gone to...nice one.

I know what you mean about the car thing and I'm open to any suggestions. If the circuit were a different shape I'd be tempted to suggest some kind of Art Deco Wing shape.

I've actually wired a 3mm blue LED to the circuit yesterday as an indicator and it's real bright (you can get even brighter). I whent to bed after searching sites on resin casting and thought I could emboss the name of the thing across it (I've got lot's of metal type face here) and make it so it goes right through. Then I could clean that up on the inside and fill with clear resin. An LED to one side and some silver foil and you get a neon like advertisment, every time it's activated.

The chrome thing is great but it takes more work to fashion metal except as one offs. After that, making the mold and casting it beats it and you can make any number. It's possible to combine the two which is why I suggested the black and silver...you can see that the silver bit is quite a simple flat panel.

With my configuration I'm thinking the whole box hinges from the back with the knobs and that latches down to a base plate with the battery and circuit attached. I could hammer thin sheet aluminium into shape or say in my box shape use two fairly flat sheets for the two levels and cast them into a mold somehow. I had thought that the edge of that scoop could be illuminated which would show up well for the player and reflect of the aluminium.

Most of the guitar's here are black and my Les Paul has gold parts so perhaps black or white are better options and mold them out of plastic. Tim noticed though that the silver ones appear to look smaller.

Anyhow, this is great stuff. People may stop making guitars altogether and just computer model their dream guitar!

psw

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Hi there rockthe40....The one I'm working on shines red, they're the easiest and cheapest that I can get. The driver lights could not be changed but perhaps, especially if I have to make them, different colors would be an option.

I just found out that it's possible to have resin casts chrome plated...not sure how they would wear. If plastic, I can make various colors. These ideas and the driver are silver because I can beat aluminium to shape and it is part of the driver assembly, so that's why they're silver.

Yeah, I hope this can be made for everybody to use...I'd love to here what fantastic stuff a musician could do with it.

At the moment, I'm paticularly keen on the push knob function. I can just imagine leaning back on that control knob an having a note or chord sustain or peel off into a harmonic or add the grit of the "induction drive" applied to it.

I'm glad that these pics are stiring the imagination. I think they warm people up to the idea of having the thing on there. Hopefully, when the function of the thing and the music you could make with it fires the imagination, they'll be no stopping it! (errr sustainer...no stopping...nevermind).

psw

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Sorry to disappoint you...but it goes on the back of the guitar...although in your case no doubt you'd rip the guts out and install it inside...so you could put it on the mantle :D

Here's a pic of the black and silver (same thing) installed on the guitar:

box on back

The measurement's I originally gave were clearly too long. Hadn't counted on the floyd set up. That knob's a little close to the fine tuners too. Also, while I love the fins, they might dig into the palm a little!

Here's a bit more of the idea I'm working on:

scoopbox2.gif

Not flash graphics but it does show the arrangement of the circuit and battery.

Now though I'm thinking the reverse...battery on the top (player's side) with the scoop below. The knob then goes in front of the battery and the control area may be able to taper down as the switches are a little smaller. Kind of like this 3d attempt:

scoopbox3.gif

On the practical side, I've done a little work on it today. I've successfully worked out the momentary switch control. This thing's great. I bet it could be adapted to work digital circuits for all sorts of guitar controls. They could replace push-pull knobs. You only have to push it less than 1mm to activate it but it gives a nice little click that you can feel. The switch is SPDT, I hope it's going to be enough to switch the power and signal.

Some minor changes to the circuit design...I've made some adjustment trimmers to handle different powered pickups and expected EMI problems so that the system should be "tune-able" to any instrument.

Anyway, slow and steady with this one, I want it to be perfect ! (well mainly I want it to work). I still got to make that new driver...just cant decide quite how to do it so that it's still pretty easy to make but has those lights and looks good when it's off. I wish I had blue!

Can't wait to see what appears next...you guys cheer me up...ta

psw

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Hopefully, this will be the last time this subject is brought up. I accept that a lot of it is my fault but it's a shame that someone working in the same field, who visits here and has developed something would not communicate his developments in the open forum.

This thread was originally set up to share ideas. It has become a place now where we meet to develop my project, but I hope people are enjoying the process.

I have had some PM's from Wix/Ryzalim/Rui:

hello

i noticed a email you send to me in the pas 1 of february sorry a only saw it today

well you wrote this "If you've done it, I wish you well but would appreciate some contact as it would effect my work on this and my work may infringe on patents that you may claim due to thedates of your posts."

and i answer:

don´t worry keep your good job my sustainer have nothing to do with your project so you wont infringe anything, feel free to explore this new world

i just ask you to please remove the post were my name is near the name "plagiator"

thanks again and keep your good work

I don't believe that I have given enough away here for anyone to actually copy my work. The secret is in the drivers, their magnetic fields and the set up of the circuits, not in the circuits themselves. That's why a schematic would not really be of use.

It just would have been nice to have heard if I'd given inspiration to someone and that those ideas be shared with us all. I therefore at no time suggested that Mr X plagerised my work, just that, (and the moderators have warned me...infact edited posts that were too explicite, God bless them) there are all kinds of people watching the forum.

I have to say, one of the reasons that I have been so open about my work is that there is a public record of what I am doing that may help in establishing that I have a claim to my ideas.

Mostly though, I have enjoyed the input of others. I find, even if I'm explaining something to others, it makes me question what is possible and get things straight in my own mind. Also, If not for the longstanding interest of people like Biohazard and the behind the scenes work with LK and others, would I have continued with the project to this stage.

I'm confident (I hope not to confident) that we're on the right track here and this thing is going to work out to be something really special.

So let's concentrate on the good stuff and get this thing going.

psw

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Now, forget all that:

A little more progress last night in oz B)

I'm still working along the lines of this:

scoopbox3.gif

But it's still possible to move the components about a bit for those working on different box ideas though.

I've successfully completed the momentary switch knob, which is a great idea in itself. The dimensions of this a 15mm cube behind the knob (incorporates the pot within the cube).

I suddenly realized that...When the guitar is in it's case, it may sit there humming away to itself till the battery goes flat :D as the lid would be pressing down on the switch!

I'm proposing then a very small sliding switch behind the battery to turn off the power to prevent this. In the above design, I'd be making a little overhang to disguise it at the back of the battery. This would also be a good place for a battery charging socket too.

It may be possible to have the switches overhang the circuit board if you keep the 25mm overall height in which case the board could shift a little forward and create a little less of a square shape.

I've been thinking out the details of how the circuit technically wires into the guitar. It looks like there will be two leads. One is abut 3-4mm round going to the driver and another is 4-5mm round (4 core shielded) going to (most likely) the selector switch. For the installer we are looking at minimum alterations...pretty much soldering the ground and 4 wires onto the selector switch. Then, use the trimmer pots inside the box to "tune" the system to such things as your pickup's output and customize to your taste (boost, distortion, sensitivity, whatever)

Because of this I'm thinking of having the box lift up from the control side hinging back like in Tims drawing but the whole thing, knobs and all.

Now some may be wondering how I propose to make this box. Well I can make something out of aluminium which provides good shielding, matches the driver construction and has a nice silver finish. But I also have the materials to create resin casts from silicone molds. If your not familiar with this process here's a site with a bit of a demonstration...though I use different stuff:

Resin Casting Site

I learn't to do this as I intended to use it on some of my pickup designs. I have had a little experience with fibreglass too so am familiar with the chemicals used. It's fairly involved for a one off but for a project like this it's an ideal process. The cast is only as good as the original but, as long as you don't get airbubbles in it, is exactly as the original. It's possible that, as a product, If I were doing it to order that custom colors and a few different designs could be made!

So you budding designers out there can go beserk with those fins and things if you use plastic. If aluminium I can press some shapes but it's not as easy in production. Apparently I can get the plastic chromed or use aluminium to highlight the box.

se ya later

psw

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Back again!!!!!!:

Here's my idea of the above sketch showing how the components fit inside. I've added the thickness of the box, the baseplare and the little switch at the back :D :

scoopbox4.gif

Also, I was so taken with emre's blue light driver render (on previous page) that I'm making a real life copy. It's a little shorter, 75mm, the driver just looked a little wide next to singlecoils on the strat up near the neck. This is as short as I can make it though!

I need some ideas for height adjustment. Originally I planed to stick it on with double sided tape. Tim's render shows screws on either end. Height adjustment will be important so...any ideas?

psw

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I seem to have become the Postmaster!

I just got a PM from onelastgoodbye. Here's something he tried but I dont think is an improvement...it's a variation on the last one:

He writes:

Hi there down below,

Some more progress today. I finalized the box with the assymetric bulge. It didn't quite come out as I intended, but should give a good idea. I've only been doing this modelling stuff for 5 weeks now (gotta love the internet and it's tutorials) so there's still a lot to figure out...can't seem to get them corners rounded properly.

box_rev17.jpg

5 weeks!!!!!!!!!

Good news is...I'm working on something new.And it's cool! It'll be pretty(relatively speaking) radical though, I'm hoping people can keep an open mind on this one.

Finally, there was a mention in the thread of putting the circuits and stuff in a beltpack like a wireless. I really really like that idea..Just a small thingie holding the controls, mounted on the bridge with a wire to the control cavity; and then a wire coming out of the jackplate (or thereabouts) connecting to the strap-mount box holding the circuit and battery. There's lots of risks running these long leads of course (RME/EMI, damage,wear,...) but it's got potential. Please comment on this, or throw it on the forum,..anyway think it over.

It's getting there, can you feel the buzz ?

Tim

I'm buzzing

I also PM'ed Mushy the shroom/aka/Ryan to see what he thought of what was happening here on the thread. He's a young guy with some different ideas on guitar design. He brought up the same thing about mounting it off the guitar:

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I just got a PM from onelastgoodbye. Here's something he tried but I dont think is an improvement...it's a variation on the last one:

I like how the bulge tapers from right to left, but the sides are bothering me. I took away too much from the right and was hoping I could make the back look rounder but it is not possible without adding to the overall dimensions of the box. Little details go a long way, that's what makes it so difficult. It's all a balancing act really.

No, stomp box idea a no go. Even having the controls separate takes 10 wires and the driver signal mst be kept separate and short as poss.

I hate stompboxes! go rack! :D

Question though: are the controls directly in the signal path? (as in do the wires to and from the controls carry the driver signal or only 'control' signals) I guess a big advantage of using digital controls would be the possibility of using longer cable runs without signal degradation, atleast in the control wires.

To bad about the strapmount idea. Oh well, one thing to remember is that a production model circuit could be made a lot smaller. If they can put camera's and bluetooth in mobiles, than they can make this small enough to fit in a standard cavity. :D

As far as the battery, you can fit a 9v battery in most tremolo guitars, between the trem springs ( my pickup is running 18v, so I've got 2 in there). Les Paul types have large enough cavities as well I think. I've als o been able to put a battery in a Jackson Kelly (not much room there!) so I'm guessing if the circuit is a wee bit smaller most people could build it inside the guitar without routing.

Ok I'll stop dissing the box idea now B) especially since I visualised the thing :D

The control knob assembly is a stroke of genius

yes it is

Have you considered using a lithium-ion battery?

li-ion is very cool, they actually produce twice the power of the alkaline we're looking at now,but cost of the battery could take up like 50 % of total production cost. I wouldn't mind using them but if price were not an issue we'd all have been playing sustainiacs years ago, right?

Hopefully my next box design 'll catch on because after that i'm all out of ideas (well not really) :D

Tim

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I really like this box idea, and yes the control knob is a stroke of genius. It is the perfect control for what you are wanting it to do. Especially if you also need to be dampening the strings when using the device.

I think that box as it looks right now is a cool looking piece of kit, I can't say I would deny it a place behine my tailpiece. But just one thing is bugging me. You say you need to dampen the strings while altering the control knob. Well, taking my quitar for example, which is a Tune-O-Matic bridge with tailpiece. You dampen the strings at the bridge itself, not the tailpiece. So there is going to be a little bit of a gap between the control knob and the actual Tune-O-Matic bridge?

Have I made sense here or have I confused a lot of people? Those with Trem bridges could well experience similar problems with reaching the knob while dampening strings.

Unless of course, as I suggested above, I have completely missed the point. :D

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I finally modeled psw's box design. Here's the silver version:

006.jpg

The box is illuminated by the driver leds, that's why it looks so blue.

another shot

box with the driver leds off

Talking 'bout leds, did you wonder what the guitar might look like in a dark room? Well i did.

I'll also post pics of black-plastic and colored-metal versions of the box, following shortly.

Next, i'll model my own box design. I have a few ideas, we'll see how it turns out...

...

emre

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:D hey i man ---> PSW i just want to say you were no inspiration fo my work, remenber i work in sustainers for about 5 years and bealeave me your driver is nothing special i know exactly how it works i studied all existing sustainers and all ways , magnetic , mechanical etc ... off produce sustain , and MY SUSTAINER, AND I TELLL AGAIN HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH "YOURS" REMEMBER THIS , and this too before you came with this idea i already builded a sustainer like your in 1999 ( YOUR STARTED WEN 2004? GROW UP), and from then more 4 sustainers so please stop acusing me of watever !!!!!!!!!!!!! and say that im inspired in your work , i could help , but your temper that´s impossible

if you continue to with your bad temper i will give your secret( " that isn´t really a secret like you say, i know exactly wich kind of driver you made , not kiding, remenber i studied all about magnetism, electromagnetism, hexdrivers etc ) freely on the net and your kids play its over, i don´t know wy you are making all this peploe entering a dream tht isn´t real :D

peace :D

RUI LUIS --------> angry guy at this moment

B)

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I really don't want to continue with this Mr Rui/wix/ryzalim.

There are people all over the world working on sustainers...my first attempt was over 10 years ago as described in my first post of this thread. People like sustainiac have many patents, and there are many more, that outline ways to achieve this effect.

It was you who posted

I'm here everyday looking for advances
.

Ok I'm no inspiration, no problem. I have no idea how you have achieved the effect. More power to you. Perhaps you'd like to share your ideas or perhaps post those sound bytes from the other forum, maybe even a few pics.

I'd be surprised if you knew how my sustainer worked in any technical detail, but I'm no expert, I'm sure someone could/has worked it out.

I've made no secret of my interest in magnetics and that I've researched extensively all the patents on the subject of sustainers. I've made all of my progress public. There are people out there right now probably launching a patent claim!

I have NOT accused you of stealing my ideas therefore, because I haven't told anyone enough to actually copy them. The moderator's have warned me of the risk of posting my ideas but the advantages of collaboration outweigh the disadvantages.

If you could help, that would be nice. It would have been nicer if you'd helped almost a year ago when you first posted and that you had not edited out the texts of those you did.

The fact that you had made working sustainers and had working examples was never revealed in those posts. If you had known of the way in which I am achieving my current results, and their not at all related to your ideas, why not say so and save me all the trouble and expense...not to mention 100's of hours, coming up with what I'm working on now!

That is my only point. Not that you stole anything, just that you didn't share your knowledge, as I have done, here or even on the other site.

Two things you may wish to answer here though is why it was only after seeing my work did you start your thread on the other site, an how is it that you forgot your nic when it's also the name you use on your hotmail address?

My paranoia (not temper) is that someone, without the ability to actually make this technology widely available to musicians, patents it and stops me from producing it.

I hope that this, then is the last I time I need to divert my work on this matter.

regards

psw

BTW I wonder if you might put up you pictures of your home built floyd. I thought that was pretty courageous of you to attempt. How did it turn out by the way?

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ANSWERS:

1º qwuestion "why it was only after seeing my work did you start your thread on the other site,.."

that´s because i discovered something "really" NEW at that time

2º i didn´t forgot my nick just the password

ok now it´s everithing explain

Rui Luis ---> not a angry guy again

concernig to my floyd rose i achieved a very good result i will take som pictures of it and my guitars , and some videos to have peoples opinion about its design and the sound of my humbuckers hand maded based on new philips tecnologieregards

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